Finally watched the game

[vogue65]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.  Stats are important, but at the same time, allowing bad shooters to take open shots can be a good strategy.  I think the UW game is another good example, I would guess that all of Ford's three point attempts were pretty wide open, and the game plan was to let him take those.  He only went 2-7, but one of the ones he made was late in crunch time, even though he made it, it's a shot you're okay with.  The only Gtown player that is above 35% with a decent sample size is Carey, and we closed out well enough on him for him to attempt below his season average on 3 point attempts. There will always be things to improve on defensively, but I'm okay with allowing bad shooters to take open three's.

Which sort of makes my point about the use of statistics for decision making.
I'm still confused about my bigger point.  Don't these kids practice against defenders (they use practice screens) so they launch high arching shots?  I rarely see a 3 blocked. 
With statistics there are always more questions to ask the guru.
How many 3's result in a foul and a 3 or 4 point result?
What is that %'s?
I know, who cares.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And yes, I know I'm a wet blanket, but there are glaring deficiencies that we have seen for years and continue with this team. If we're going to seriously discuss this team, those deficiencies should be acknowledged not just when we lose but also when the issues crop up and we defy probability to win, such as this one and at Creighton.

We should discuss deficiencies even after a win. But until your posts this morning no one was doing that. Go back and look, there isn't one post actually offering any discussion on a deficiency from the game. It was just a bunch of angry vitriol directed at Wojo. No substance, just "we were down big to Georgetown, ergo Wojo sucks."

Personally, I think this was a positive coaching for Wojo. We changed up defenses, kept them off balance, were getting open look after open look on offense, and Wojo rode a hot lineup that was not intuitive at all to victory. It was against Ewing and Georgetown, so it's not like it's impressive but Wojo did what he needed to this game. The only reason we didn't blow them out of the water was because we biffed multiple unguarded layups and besides Cain, couldn't hit the ocean if we fell out of a boat. You cited how many unguarded threes we gave up, how many unguarded threes did they give up that we missed? Add in the reality that we are a MUCH better 3P shooting team than Georgetown and I feel like Georgetown benefitted from a lot more luck than we did.

That said, there was more bad than good, despite the notch in the win column. And when that is pointed out and the people pointing it out are villainized, it reduces the level of discourse on the site. I agree that positivity is more fun, but painting over the moldy spots in the basement doesn't make them go away, it just allows them to fester and grow unseen.

I think the only ones being "villainized" are those who go to the length of using a video of Wojo joining in a celebration started by the players as evidence that Wojo is a bad coach. As I said above, there was no discourse being offered on Saturday. It was just angry yelling at Wojo. That kills discourse more than anything on this site.

And while painting over mold does allow it to fester...I don't think what is discussed on Scoop is going to have any impact on MU's performance going forward.

[Its DJOver]

MU shot 4/10 on unguarded threes, for 1.2 ppp which is above their season average. Georgetown shot 2/10 for 0.6 ppp which is below their season average.  The coaching issue is that we repeatedly allow those open attempts. Not having the team ready after a long layoff when we were told the problem was tired legs also seems like a coaching issue.

Again, you also have to look at whose taking the shots.  Every single Beast coach out there is going to be okay with 75% career three point shooter Theo John taking a wide open 3.  Teams used to beg Derrick to take wide open threes. Sometimes poor shooters will get hot on a day and an adjustment will need to be made, but I'm okay with letting 28% three point shooter Chudier Bile take 3 open threes a game, even if he makes one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

MU shot 4/10 on unguarded threes, for 1.2 ppp which is above their season average. Georgetown shot 2/10 for 0.6 ppp which is below their season average.  The coaching issue is that we repeatedly allow those open attempts. Not having the team ready after a long layoff when we were told the problem was tired legs also seems like a coaching issue.

Can you please share where you are getting your unguarded three information? I'm open to learning but I have had a hard time believing that 12 of our three attempts were considered guarded. Garcia, Lewis, and Torrence went 0-12 by themselves and other than maybe 1 or 2 from Lewis and 1 from Carton they were wide open.

[MU82]

FWIW, I started a "Jamal's minutes" thread because I thought the subject merited its own thread.

[brewcity77]

Can you please share where you are getting your unguarded three information? I'm open to learning but I have had a hard time believing that 12 of our three attempts were considered guarded. Garcia, Lewis, and Torrence went 0-12 by themselves and other than maybe 1 or 2 from Lewis and 1 from Carton they were wide open.

I believe Andrei got the numbers from Synergy. He shared them on the PT Twitter.

[vogue65]

I believe Andrei got the numbers from Synergy. He shared them on the PT Twitter.

I know Andrei got the numbers from Synergy who got the numbers from Joe who got the numbers from Pete, who was drunk.  Furthermore, there was some rounding involved, some used 4 places, some were judgement calls. 

[brewcity77]

I know Andrei got the numbers from Synergy who got the numbers from Joe who got the numbers from Pete, who was drunk.  Furthermore, there was some rounding involved, some used 4 places, some were judgement calls.

Your schtick is becoming more exhausting than 4ever's, but even less grounded in reality.

[The Sultan]

Your schtick is becoming more exhausting than 4ever's, but even less grounded in reality.

At least I understand what 4ever is trying to say.  Vogue sounds like he's on LSD half the time.

[Jockey]

At least I understand what 4ever is trying to say.  Vogue sounds like he's on LSD half the time.

The deepest thing 4ever has said is "Crean Sucks". Genius level comprehension is not really a requirement..

Vogue sounds like he is on LSD 100% of the time, but at least I read and enjoy his posts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I believe Andrei got the numbers from Synergy. He shared them on the PT Twitter.

Thanks, I have synergy as well, but Andrei is much better at using it than I am. I may need to take a dive to see what else I can pull from it.

[JakeBarnes]

Brew, to my eyes, the reason for the deficit was missed lay ups and missed open 3s.   MU got whatever they wanted.   That isnt coaching, that is basketball sometimes

I agree with this for the second half for sure. First half had a lot of turnovers and bad plays on our end it felt like. This team needs to start making three's more--there's a ton of opportunity and it'd go a long way in helping the margin for error and turning around some of these close games. A little surprised how ineffective Dawson has been from the arc thus far.

[tower912]

Vogue is our Bill Walton

[Jockey]

Vogue is our Bill Walton

+1000

[PaintTouches]

Marquette went 4-10 on unguarded spot up 3s, per Synergy, with Sy and Justin making up 5 of those misses.

On the season, I have focused on this so closely (on the defensive end) because unguarded spot ups are the most valuable non-dunk, non FT shot you can give up, and the defense has a ton of control over how many you give up, so luck doesn't factor a ton over the course of a season (though it plays a huge role from game to game).

This was from prior to Georgetown, only factoring in MU's Big East Games.



This is from the NonCOn



The D has faced much better teams that made them pay, but has also given up more open shots. When I see improvement there across a few games, I'll change my tune.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Marquette went 4-10 on unguarded spot up 3s, per Synergy, with Sy and Justin making up 5 of those misses.

On the season, I have focused on this so closely (on the defensive end) because unguarded spot ups are the most valuable non-dunk, non FT shot you can give up, and the defense has a ton of control over how many you give up, so luck doesn't factor a ton over the course of a season (though it plays a huge role from game to game).

This was from prior to Georgetown, only factoring in MU's Big East Games.



This is from the NonCOn



The D has faced much better teams that made them pay, but has also given up more open shots. When I see improvement there across a few games, I'll change my tune.

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but in addition to showing that we give up too many unguarded threes, doesn't this also show that we've been very unlucky with our opponents making them? Our PPP allowed on both guarded and unguarded are much higher than both the D1 and Big East averages.

For example, if you look at the unguarded numbers in conference play, we are giving up 10.5 unguarded threes a game and our opponents are scoring 1.5 points per unguarded three. That results in 15.75 points a game given up a game on unguarded threes. If our opponents scored the D1 average of 1.059 per unguarded three, that would result in 11.12 points a game given up a game on unguarded threes. That's over a 4.5 point difference. So yes, we give up too many unguarded threes but our opponents have been hitting them at unnaturally high rates (likely because we started conference play going against the top 4 offenses in the Big East).

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

And while painting over mold does allow it to fester...I don't think what is discussed on Scoop is going to have any impact on MU's performance going forward.

Fake news.



Full disclosure: I've had to use it.

[brewcity77]

Fake news.



Full disclosure: I've had to use it.

See how it works with ordinary paint.

[Newsdreams]

See how it works with ordinary paint.

At least enjoy the humor

[Shooter McGavin]

Had Cain spent years in a different system, I think there's every reason his handle could be much better. Underuse for the bulk of his career seems to have put his development on the back burner.

Brew,

I think this is a stretch.  Jamal has spent countless hours in the gym. His handle should be phenomenal by now if he was a capable ball handler regardless of program.

If Wojo had Sidiq Bey on the team we would have been a better team.  Jamal is no Bey no matter how you slice it.  He's looked like a baby giraffe for better parts of 4 years on defense and handling the ball.  I'm sure the coaches have been as frustrated as you he is not on an NBA roster right now and he has not lead us on a deep run in the tournament.

I love the potential.  As he matures he has the ability in many other facets of basketball to succeed.  Hopefully he keeps up with his ball handling skills after practice and becomes more consistent.  It would be a pleasure to watch.

[Eldon]

Vogue is our Bill Walton

He adds other value as well:

-only Scooper who is an MU Med alum

-only Scooper who lives in Newark, NJ

[NorthernDancerColt]

One part of offense that was successful was when Lewis had either "5" on him to get him the ball at the free throw line and drive. Good things happened in most cases getting their big trying to defend a drive.

That really isn't Theo's game so Lewis gives us a new dimension when he is playing.

I know I'm all Scooped out when I initially read your first sentence to mean "5 Dollar" P was on Lewis's case. 😂

[vogue65]

Marquette went 4-10 on unguarded spot up 3s, per Synergy, with Sy and Justin making up 5 of those misses.

On the season, I have focused on this so closely (on the defensive end) because unguarded spot ups are the most valuable non-dunk, non FT shot you can give up, and the defense has a ton of control over how many you give up, so luck doesn't factor a ton over the course of a season (though it plays a huge role from game to game).

This was from prior to Georgetown, only factoring in MU's Big East Games.



This is from the NonCOn



The D has faced much better teams that made them pay, but has also given up more open shots. When I see improvement there across a few games, I'll change my tune.

Interesting, thank you.
Interesting segmentation.
Next question.
If the " pull up shot" was unguarded, was another shot, like the paint, guarded?
Thats why you need a complex algorithm.
Also, I thought we are talking about 3's?
Typical misapplication of statistics, or what looks like statistics, I call it numbers.
Nevertheless, interesting and a part of the puzzle.

[brewcity77]

Interesting, thank you.
Interesting segmentation.
Next question.
If the " pull up shot" was unguarded, was another shot, like the paint, guarded?
Thats why you need a complex algorithm.
Also, I thought we are talking about 3's?
Typical misapplication of statistics, or what looks like statistics, I call it numbers.
Nevertheless, interesting and a part of the puzzle.

Shots are headed on both guarded and unguarded at all different areas. The reason the unguarded pull-up three is so important is because, aside from the slam dunk, the highest ppp shot in the sport. So when a shooter is able to get that shot undefended, in-rhythm, they score more points than any other shot type in the sport. And because with good defense, it's a preventable shot.

While our ppp on these is bad, that's less concerning than the number we allow because it shows our defense is giving our opponents more chances at high percentage shots. The total 3PFGA number of 21 vs the league average of 15.6 is particularly troubling because we are allowing more of the shots that hurt us the most than our peers.

In layman's terms, we are not only giving our opponents the biggest guns to shoot at us, but also the clearest line of sight.

[The Equalizer]

While our ppp on these is bad, that's less concerning than the number we allow because it shows our defense is giving our opponents more chances at high percentage shots. The total 3PFGA number of 21 vs the league average of 15.6 is particularly troubling because we are allowing more of the shots that hurt us the most than our peers.

To be fair, the conference schedule had us playing the most aggressive 3-point shooting teams early.  It's not an outlier that Villanova, Xavier and Creighton took a lot of 3 point shots against us--they take a lot of 3 point shots against everybody.

In conference play, Villanova is averaging nearly 32 three attempts per game, Creighton and Xavier close to 27 per game. It falls off dramaticaly from there. Uconn is 4th, nearly 4 attempts behind Xavier. 

Many teams we have yet to face are averaging far fewer three attempts (Providence, DePaul, and Butler all fewer than 21/game).