UCLA thoughts

[5DollarPitcher]

The facts were all in Irwin's post.

Wide open 3s are absolutely excellent looks.

You saying "not really debatable" when we had wide open shots is an example of why you lose credibility here.

Wide open shots? It seems that you're not considering that we either got blocked or turned the ball over on about 2/3 of our possessions in the last 5 minutes.

W/r/t our wide open shots - have you ever entertained the thought that defenses with good coaches that can make adjustments have decided that, if they need to give up any shot to this Marquette team, deep jump shots are the ones to give? Who's our best shooter? True freshman Dawson? Cain (who has been inconsistent his whole career at MU)? Koby? I truly don't know if we have a consistent deep jump shooter. Markus Howard is not walking back through that door. Deep jump shots and highly contested shots in the lane are just not excellent looks for this Marquette team.

"Excellent looks" are defined by the team you have, their strengths, what the defense is giving you, and what your offense can get you. The shots we were taking at the end of the game were not excellent looks.

[5DollarPitcher]

To illustrate - we had several "open" deep jumpers against the OSU zone. But we bricked our way all the way to a somewhat embarrassing loss. Were those "excellent looks" that just "weren't falling for us"? Or were we being lazy and taking the one shot the defense was giving us? Food for thought.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wide open shots? It seems that you're not considering that we either got blocked or turned the ball over on about 2/3 of our possessions in the last 5 minutes.

In the last 5 minutes we had 0 turnovers, 3 shots get blocked, 2 FGMs, and 5 FGA that missed but weren't blocked.

Even after last night's poor 3P shooting performance, we are shooting 35.1% on the season. If we shot that last night, we would have scored 9 more points. Giving up wide open threes to guys like Cain and Garcia is not good defense, it was the result of good offense. Same thing was true on the other end when we gave up a couple of open looks to Kyman who clanked them.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

To illustrate - we had several "open" deep jumpers against the OSU zone. But we bricked our way all the way to a somewhat embarrassing loss. Were those "excellent looks" that just "weren't falling for us"? Or were we being lazy and taking the one shot the defense was giving us? Food for thought.

The deep jumpers against Ok State were "open" and out of rhythm. The ones last night were open and in rhythm. Ok state was bad offense. UCLA was good defense.

[5DollarPitcher]

In the last 5 minutes we had 0 turnovers, 3 shots get blocked, 2 FGMs, and 5 FGA that missed but weren't blocked.

3 of the 5 missed FGA you're mentioning were in the last 30 seconds or so when the game was over and we were in desperation chuck it up mode.

We also had 2 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes.

Context is key.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I was wondering what happened to the Theo John we saw in the first two games who was running the floor, dunking on a breakaway and dunking on a put back above the rim.

Ummm he hasn't practiced in a week with a knee injury but strapped on the laces for the team.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

3 of the 5 missed FGA you're mentioning were in the last 30 seconds or so when the game was over and we were in desperation chuck it up mode.

Context is key.

Correct. Context is key. So is not making things up. Such as:

Wide open shots? It seems that you're not considering that we either got blocked or turned the ball over on about 2/3 of our possessions in the last 5 minutes.

Or such as:

We also had 2 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes.

We had exactly one foul from the 5 minute mark to the 45 second mark. It was a defensive foul on Greg Elliott attempting to defend Chris Smith. The foul at the 45 second mark was Koby's fifth foul after a UCLA offensive rebound. The rest of the fouls were intentional. There were 0 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes. The last offensive foul was at the 10:02 mark on Dawson Garcia.

[5DollarPitcher]

Correct. Context is key. So is not making things up. Such as:

Or such as:

We had exactly one foul from the 5 minute mark to the 45 second mark. It was a defensive foul on Greg Elliott attempting to defend Chris Smith. The foul at the 45 second mark was Koby's fifth foul after a UCLA offensive rebound. The rest of the fouls were intentional. There were 0 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes. The last offensive foul was at the 10:02 mark on Dawson Garcia.

I must be misremembering the end to the half but my point about the missed shots in the last 30 seconds that were taken to the tune of yakety sax still stands.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I must be misremembering the end to the half but my point about the missed shots in the last 30 seconds that were taken to the tune of yakety sax still stands.

Not really. You said 2/3rds of the possessions resulted in a turnover or a blocked shot. There were 0 turnovers over that stretch and even without the desperation shots at the end, there were more non-blocked shots than blocked shots, a far cry from 2/3rds. And just like the people who were saying "any layup is a good attempt" were wrong, your stance that "any blocked shot is a bad attempt" is just as wrong. Sometimes, a defender makes a really great play to block a good shot. Sometimes, the offensive player gets fouled but the refs let em play and it goes in the score sheet as a blocked shot.

Sometimes when a team isn't scoring it is because they ran bad offense (Ok State). Other times it is because the other team played good defense (UCLA). Other times they run good offense and the other team plays bad defense but the shots just don't go in.

[Viper]

Wojo is who he is as a coach. Six games gives us a good idea of this team. I figure .500 in conf. play. Good enough for the ncaa tourney..if there is one?

[4everwarriors]

Dey didant play angry enuff, aina?

[IrwinFletcher]

I agree that this loss wasn't all on coaching and gameplan. Maybe even moreso the inherent limitations of the players on this team.

But I don't think it makes any type of logical sense to herald an "excellent gameplan" producing "excellent looks" when we went without a FG for multiple 5+ minute stretches of this game.

Coaches install offenses and game plans to put their players in the best position to succeed.  That means to get the best look on a shot that is best suited for that player.  That's all the coaches can do.  They can't take the shot.  the player has to make it.  Some games, players are on and they are drilling all kinds of shots.  Some days they can't  make a layup.  Most days they are normal.

We had an abnormally horrible shooting night from deep.  On a normal night, we make 4 more and the game is different.

So yes, Coaching staff did a good job last night.

[Johnny B]

we beat Wisco so the rest of the season is playing with house money. Assuming the roster comes back next year we will stomp.
Cain not coming back would be fine.

huh?? 

[GooooMarquette]

we beat Wisco so the rest of the season is playing with house money. Assuming the roster comes back next year we will stomp.
Cain not coming back would be fine.

Beating Bucky is nice, but it does NOT turn the rest of the season into 'house money.' I would trade that win for a top 4 finish in the BE in a New York minute.

[muwarrior69]

Honestly, was very pleased with the game until the under 8 timeout. That was a very good offense going against a very good defense and more often than not our defense was winning the battle. With Big East refs calling this game, we enter the last stretch up 10.

People will point to the turnovers and they aren't wrong...but they're not why we lost. They kept us from building a bigger lead before the end of the game...but in the critical stretch where UCLA won it, we committed 0 turnovers. The last turnover was the shot clock violation after UCLA had just hit 2 FTs to break a 56-56 tie. From that point on, we played turnover free basketball....but couldn't score.

I don't know this for sure, but I suspect during the under 8 timeout, Wojo instructed his players to attack UCLA's defense and try to win the game at the foul line. Not a bad strategy considering the way the game had been called. First offensive play after the timeout got Dawson to the line and a 4th foul on Jaquez. The next one was the shot clock violation. After that, 4 of the next 6 offensive possessions culminated in an attempted layup. Those 4 attempted layups resulted in 2 points (Koby's pocket pass to Cain) and 3 blocked shots. Credit to UCLA, 2 of the blocks were clearly clean and 1 may have been a foul but if it was, not an obvious one. Great defensive effort by UCLA to challenge those shots without fouling.

While I don't fault Wojo for the decision to try to win at the free throw line, I do fault the decision to keep Lewis out of the game. I think Garcia earned his time by playing stellar D on Chris Smith most of the night, but we needed offense and Lewis was causing Bruins trouble every time he touched the ball. Should have put him in for the last 5 minutes.

Love aggressive Carton. Get that dude for 32 minutes a game and we won't have many problems on offense.

Oso, way to step up when your number is called. Dexter, nice assist?

We are not a great three point shooting team, but we are better than 4/20. Cain had 2 wide open looks that wouldn't fall. Greg missed a pair of open looks he usually hits. Carton started with 2 makes and missed some clean looks after that. All 4 of Dawson's misses were in rhythm, one was 75% down before popping back up. We shoot even 35% from range tonight and we win the game.

Don't have to go too deep into the weeds to analyze this one. Foul trouble, turnovers, and ice cold three point shooting was the story. Great defense and rebounding can make up for two of those but not all three.

So PAC12 refs call a tighter game than Big East Refs? Can a coach make adjustments on how the refs are calling the game? I have to say the Refs took out our bigs early in the game and with young players like Dawson and Lewis frustration can build up quickly. Theo is Theo. I didn't see the game just listened to Homer.

[T.V. Diener 34]

Haha, no.  I was just referencing the incident from last year that became a big brouhaha on here.  I have never, and would never, boo amateur athletes.  Except for the Badgers.

Just FWIW.... the fan wasn't even heckling Markus that pissed off Markus' dad.  He was yelling that Wojo should be fired over and over and over again and Markus' dad basically walked up and told him he was being disrespectful and to stop.  Then Markus' mom stood and and also said the same thing.... I think it's hilarious that people think the whole issue between Markus' parents and the fan actually revolved around Markus.  I heard/saw the whole thing 10 feet away from me.... his dad was actually super reserved/classy for how obnoxious the dude was the entire game.

[Silent Verbal]

Just FWIW.... the fan wasn't even heckling Markus that pissed off Markus' dad.  He was yelling that Wojo should be fired over and over and over again and Markus' dad basically walked up and told him he was being disrespectful and to stop.  Then Markus' mom stood and and also said the same thing.... I think it's hilarious that people think the whole issue between Markus' parents and the fan actually revolved around Markus.  I heard/saw the whole thing 10 feet away from me.... his dad was actually super reserved/classy for how obnoxious the dude was the entire game.

Interesting to hear, thanks for the info. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just FWIW.... the fan wasn't even heckling Markus that pissed off Markus' dad.  He was yelling that Wojo should be fired over and over and over again and Markus' dad basically walked up and told him he was being disrespectful and to stop.  Then Markus' mom stood and and also said the same thing.... I think it's hilarious that people think the whole issue between Markus' parents and the fan actually revolved around Markus.  I heard/saw the whole thing 10 feet away from me.... his dad was actually super reserved/classy for how obnoxious the dude was the entire game.

You weren't seated too far from me. The worst thing about it is that the douchenozzle was seated a few rows behind a top 75 recruit who was on an official visit. He seemed...uncomfortable during the incident. He plays for someone else now.

Before anyone jumps on me, no I'm not saying this is THE reason the recruit didn't come to Marquette. But I'm sure it didn't help.

[Johnny B]

You weren't seated too far from me. The worst thing about it is that the douchenozzle was seated a few rows behind a top 75 recruit who was on an official visit. He seemed...uncomfortable during the incident. He plays for someone else now.

Before anyone jumps on me, no I'm not saying this is THE reason the recruit didn't come to Marquette. But I'm sure it didn't help.

Who was the recruit
?

[Silent Verbal]

You weren't seated too far from me. The worst thing about it is that the douchenozzle was seated a few rows behind a top 75 recruit who was on an official visit. He seemed...uncomfortable during the incident. He plays for someone else now.

Before anyone jumps on me, no I'm not saying this is THE reason the recruit didn't come to Marquette. But I'm sure it didn't help.

Did the fan get kicked out of the game, or did he just shut up after Markus' parents spoke to him?

[wadesworld]

Did the fan get kicked out of the game, or did he just shut up after Markus' parents spoke to him?

Didn't you claim his family would have an entire section of fans kicked out of Fiserv like they did the fan last season? So in reality you didn't know anything and we're just trying to knock Markus/his family without knowing anything about what happened.

[MU82]

Who's our best shooter? True freshman Dawson? Cain (who has been inconsistent his whole career at MU)? Koby? I truly don't know if we have a consistent deep jump shooter. Markus Howard is not walking back through that door. Deep jump shots and highly contested shots in the lane are just not excellent looks for this Marquette team.

"Excellent looks" are defined by the team you have, their strengths, what the defense is giving you, and what your offense can get you. The shots we were taking at the end of the game were not excellent looks.

The two biggest misses IMHO were the wide-open 3s, on excellent offensive plays, by Cain and Garcia. Both went in-and-out. Garcia's was about 75% down.

Cain is a 39% career 3-point shooter who was 8-for-21 (.381) this season before last night. Garcia, a great shooter in high school, was 7-for-12 (.583) this season behind the arc going into last night.

So yes, I will gladly take a wide-open 3 within the flow of the offense from either or both of them. Koby has shot pretty well this season, too.

And as I said earlier, Garcia also had two pretty easy little hooks in the lane but missed them, both on nice post entries.

Look, our offense wasn't good enough last night down the stretch. I am not trying to say the coaching was brilliant; indeed, I said the opposite in my earlier post. But to suggest that Marquette did not have a number of very good shots -- including those two wide-open 3s from two good shooters -- that seems like trying to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

[T.V. Diener 34]

Did the fan get kicked out of the game, or did he just shut up after Markus' parents spoke to him?

The fan got kicked out with a police escort... the dude was with a buddy and he seemed totally embarrassed... the fact that people think Markus' parents were in the wrong is hilarious and the fact that people think that it had anything to do with Markus is even worse... I wanted to do the same thing that Markus' dad did but didn't want to make a scene so God bless him for having more balls than me

[5DollarPitcher]

Look, our offense wasn't good enough last night down the stretch. I am not trying to say the coaching was brilliant; indeed, I said the opposite in my earlier post. But to suggest that Marquette did not have a number of very good shots -- including those two wide-open 3s from two good shooters -- that seems like trying to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

And I'm genuinely not trying to pile on Wojo or the coaching staff (this time around).  As I said earlier, our struggles offensively may just be due to the inherent limitations of what this team is.

However, I just cannot accept that we got consistently "excellent looks" off a consistently "excellent gameplan" last night when we had multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts.  Those two ideas just do not coexist unless you're having the unluckiest shooting night in the history of basketball.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And I'm genuinely not trying to pile on Wojo or the coaching staff (this time around).  As I said earlier, our struggles offensively may just be due to the inherent limitations of what this team is.

However, I just cannot accept that we got consistently "excellent looks" off a consistently "excellent gameplan" last night when we had multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts.  Those two ideas just do not coexist unless you're having the unluckiest shooting night in the history of basketball.

Unless you are talking about real time, not game time, we had 0 5-minute scoring droughts last night. The longest scoring drought of the game was 4 minutes and 10 seconds and happened towards the end of the first half. UCLA stretched their lead by 3 during this drought. The second longest of the game was 2:55 and happened in the second half. This was the key stretch where UCLA took control, stretching their lead by 7.

Using game time to measure droughts isn't the best. A scoring drought of 1 minute that features 6 empty offensive possessions is twice as bad as a scoring drought of 5 minutes that only contains 3 empty possessions. For example, the second scoring drought I mentioned above was three empty offensive possessions: a bad possession that resulted in a shot clock violation, a good possession the resulted in a missed open three, and a bad possession that featured a wild drive and stuffed shot. Considering they scored on the possession before this drought and the possession after, the pattern was good play (DG draws foul), bad play (shot clock), good play (missed open 3 for career 38% 3P shooter), bad play (wild drive and stuff), good play (KM pocket pass to JC for easy layup). On a possession by possession basis, it wasn't that bad of a stretch. It seemed worse because the pace was slow so a lot of time ticked off and because UCLA had 3 consecutive scoring possessions, 2 of which were atrocious foul calls IMHO (and Walton's HO too). The third, Tyger Campbell schooled our D for an easy alley oop.

TLDR: You are right that teams that have "multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts" don't usually have excellent looks or excellent gameplans. The thing is, we didn't have multiple 5 or so minute scoring droughts last night, so your logic doesn't apply here. Plus, measuring scoring droughts in minutes is misleading at best.