Doc Rivers let go by Clippers

[shoothoops]

Larry Brown won the NCAA tourney with Danny Manning at Kansas

Yep. He also had success in his short UCLA stint. Being successful at the college level has been less of a problem for him as has avoiding NCAA investigations and penalties at his college stops.

[MUBurrow]

Thanks for the responses, I knew there was some.

Looking at this list, besides Larry Brown going the Nuggets to UCLA in 1979, all these coaches took multiple years off after being fired from a losing NBA team (IIRC Dunleavy technically stepped down) before taking a college position. The jury is still out on Mussleman, but the other five failed pretty spectacularly at the college level. I guess you could say Larry Brown was successful at SMU if you don't mind postseason bans and lost scholarships.

So, Doc doesn't match the profile of other coaches who went from the NBA to college...and even if he did, it's likely he takes some time off from coaching before making that move.

Yeah, I think this leads to the kind of inevitable conclusion that those who don't need to recruit, don't recuit.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Thanks for the responses, I knew there was some.

Looking at this list, besides Larry Brown going the Nuggets to UCLA in 1979, all these coaches took multiple years off after being fired from a losing NBA team (IIRC Dunleavy technically stepped down) before taking a college position. The jury is still out on Mussleman, but the other five failed pretty spectacularly at the college level. I guess you could say Larry Brown was successful at SMU if you don't mind postseason bans and lost scholarships.

So, Doc doesn't match the profile of other coaches who went from the NBA to college...and even if he did, it's likely he takes some time off from coaching before making that move.

I think it depends on what you define success as.  There really aren't that many great college basketball coaches regardless of their background. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Larry Brown won the NCAA tourney with Danny Manning at Kansas

Yep. He also had success in his short UCLA stint. Being successful at the college level has been less of a problem for him as has avoiding NCAA investigations and penalties at his college stops.

That was a miss on my part. I thought Brown went straight from UCLA to Kansas so didn't count his time at Kansas. Missed that he went to the Nets in between those two jobs.

So the results for examples from the last 20 years are bad.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think it depends on what you define success as.  There really aren't that many great college basketball coaches regardless of their background.

I mean, sure. But I think we can all agree that:


29-68 (Eddie Jordan)
24-69 (Mike Dunleavy Sr)
26-65 (Isiah Thomas)
Postseason bans and lost scholarships (Brown)

don't match anyone's definition of success.

Avery Johnson's record at Alabama was better than I remembered (75-62) but 1 9-seed in 4 years isn't setting the world on fire.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I mean, sure. But I think we can all agree that:


29-68 (Eddie Jordan)
24-69 (Mike Dunleavy Sr)
26-65 (Isiah Thomas)
Postseason bans and lost scholarships (Brown)

don't match anyone's definition of success.

Avery Johnson's record at Alabama was better than I remembered (75-62) but 1 9-seed in 4 years isn't setting the world on fire.

Outside of Brown, who was successful for a specific reason (got caught cheating to get good player), none of those listed are hit's.  Mussleman has had two jobs, so he's employable/capable, Johnson was pretty mediocre.   This may actually be better than average (brown successful, two employable, three washed out)

So Doc could be great or terrible.  Just because his first headcoaching experience is an NBA coach doesn't make or less likely to be successful as the MU headcoach.  We probably can conclude that it makes him less likely to desire the job though.

[wadesworld]

We won't know how good Doc will be as the MU coach unless we give him a call.

[The Big East]

I mean, sure. But I think we can all agree that:


29-68 (Eddie Jordan)
24-69 (Mike Dunleavy Sr)
26-65 (Isiah Thomas)
Postseason bans and lost scholarships (Brown)

don't match anyone's definition of success.

Avery Johnson's record at Alabama was better than I remembered (75-62) but 1 9-seed in 4 years isn't setting the world on fire.

Alabama basketball sits in the shadow of Alabama football and it is hard for any coach to move the meter much there. I think Alabama would have been much better off keeping Anthony Grant, who had some good seasons,  for the long term and letting him build some kind of winning tradition. Alabama probably should have done the same thing with Avery Johnson, instead of firing after four, let the guy stay around for 8-9 years and build something more durable.

All that said, College is about recruiting. I thought Avery Grant would have been a super recruiter with his personality but I guess that wasn't the case.

[tower912]

Alabama basketball sits in the shadow of Alabama football and it is hard for any coach to move the meter much there. I think Alabama would have been much better off keeping Anthony Grant, who had some good seasons,  for the long term and letting him build some kind of winning tradition. Alabama probably should have done the same thing with Avery Johnson, instead of firing after four, let the guy stay around for 8-9 years and build something more durable.

All that said, College is about recruiting. I thought Avery Grant would have been a super recruiter with his personality but I guess that wasn't the case.

8-9 years to build something?!?!?!?

[The Big East]

8-9 years to build something?!?!?!?

Football dominates everything down there, so I think the Bama basketball coach needs some longer period of consistency to build some tradition for the sport. Grant and Johnson posted acceptable records during their time at Alabama, but I think the school made a mistake by firing them.

Mark Gottfried had some good years but the program petered out then as well and there wasn't much tolerance for rebuilding by the administration.

[The Big East]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29996884/how-doc-rivers-clippers-partnership-fell-apart

[Pakuni]

Football dominates everything down there, so I think the Bama basketball coach needs some longer period of consistency to build some tradition for the sport. Grant and Johnson posted acceptable records during their time at Alabama, but I think the school made a mistake by firing them.

Mark Gottfried had some good years but the program petered out then as well and there wasn't much tolerance for rebuilding by the administration.

Wimp Sanderson took over the Alabama program in 1980 and had them in the tournament in his second season (back when only 48 teams made it). He went on to make nine consecutive tourneys, including five Sweet 16 appearances. He also won five SEC tournaments.

Now, if Wimp Sanderson could do that starting in his second season, why should it take other coaches eight or nine years to build a successful program? Yeah, football will always be king in Tuscaloosa, but that doesn't excuse the lack of success by recent coaches there.

[JWags85]

Outside of Brown, who was successful for a specific reason (got caught cheating to get good player), none of those listed are hit's.  Mussleman has had two jobs, so he's employable/capable, Johnson was pretty mediocre.   This may actually be better than average (brown successful, two employable, three washed out)

Larry Brown was extremely successful at Kansas without any sanctions. Whatever happened at SMU doesn't change that.

Mussleman is undersold. We'll see what he does at Arkansas, but he took a Nevada team coming off 3 consecutive losing seasons including winning single digit games the year before he arrived, and immediately made them competitive and then dominated the MWC the next 3 years and made a S16. His first year at Arkansas he steadied the ship after they were on the decline to end Mike Anderson's tenure

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Larry Brown was extremely successful at Kansas without any sanctions. Whatever happened at SMU doesn't change that.

Ummm.....

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-11-02-sp-749-story.html

Even if there weren't sanctions at Kansas, that example is still over 20 years old.

Mussleman is undersold. We'll see what he does at Arkansas, but he took a Nevada team coming off 3 consecutive losing seasons including winning single digit games the year before he arrived, and immediately made them competitive and then dominated the MWC the next 3 years and made a S16. His first year at Arkansas he steadied the ship after they were on the decline to end Mike Anderson's tenure

Yep, like I said, jury is out on him. We'll see what he does at Arkansas. He's losing 82% of his minutes played from last year's NITish team. He brings in a lot of transfers to try and make up for it, we'll see if that works.

[Pakuni]

Larry Brown was extremely successful at Kansas without any sanctions. Whatever happened at SMU doesn't change that.

Kansas was placed on probation for three years and barred from the 1989 tournament (meaning they didn't have a chance to defend their title) because of recruiting violations under Larry Brown.

Edit: TAMU beat me to it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Outside of Brown, who was successful for a specific reason (got caught cheating to get good player), none of those listed are hit's.  Mussleman has had two jobs, so he's employable/capable, Johnson was pretty mediocre.   This may actually be better than average (brown successful, two employable, three washed out)

So Doc could be great or terrible.  Just because his first headcoaching experience is an NBA coach doesn't make or less likely to be successful as the MU headcoach.  We probably can conclude that it makes him less likely to desire the job though.

I mostly agree. But the point of my posts isn't to say that Doc would be terrible as a college coach. The point of my posts is to counter those that assume he would be a great college coach (or even just a better option than Wojo) because of his NBA pedigree.

I think being a good college head coach can prepare you to be a good NBA head coach. I don't think being good NBA head coach prepares you be a good college head coach. So much of being successful at the college level comes down to recruiting.

[Galway Eagle]

I mostly agree. But the point of my posts isn't to say that Doc would be terrible as a college coach. The point of my posts is to counter those that assume he would be a great college coach (or even just a better option than Wojo) because of his NBA pedigree.

I think being a good college head coach can prepare you to be a good NBA head coach. I don't think being good NBA head coach prepares you be a good college head coach. So much of being successful at the college level comes down to recruiting.

But it's been repeated here so often that the NBA coaches are far and away the best and that the best college coaches would be crap in the NBA. Are you saying this might not be true and it, gasp, could be a different skill set?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But it's been repeated here so often that the NBA coaches are far and away the best and that the best college coaches would be crap in the NBA. Are you saying this might not be true and it, gasp, could be a different skill set?

I think the NBA coaches are far and way the best coaches in the traditional sense of game management, xs and os, etc. But yes, both have additional facets to the job that require different skill sets.

[The Sultan]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29996884/how-doc-rivers-clippers-partnership-fell-apart

Chemistry and leadership can't be reasons teams blow 3-1 leads. 

[brewcity77]

But it's been repeated here so often that the NBA coaches are far and away the best and that the best college coaches would be crap in the NBA. Are you saying this might not be true and it, gasp, could be a different skill set?

I agree on the different skill sets, but my thought is most successful NBA coaches could be successful in college, but may not like the job. It's basically less money for more work. Recruiting never ends, you're constantly dealing with roster turnover, all the hand-holding with kids and parents, I think there's a lot more to the game. The NBA is more of a pressure cooker, but generally all you have to do is coach the team and manage the locker room.

Could Doc be good in college? I think so. I think he would be an above average X's & O's coach at the college level (not sure he is in the NBA), he would be a great motivator, and I think he'd be a killer recruiter if he chose to be. But that's a big choice, a lot of time to dedicate, and would be an even bigger sacrifice considering it'd be about an 80% pay cut at Marquette.

[Pakuni]

Doc to the 76ers.
Another missed opportunity.

[tower912]

Apparently, they weren't put off by his social conscience.

[MUBurrow]

Wow that was pretty quick.  We'll see how the money comes out on it, but money all being equal, I'm not sure that the 76ers would be my top pick of the jobs that are open.  I think current roster talent is probably top of the list for Doc, so if you don't want to deal with Harden-Westbrook, this is pretty obviously the next best open gig. But Embiid-Simmons strikes me as a pretty difficult job, both on the court and personalities-wise. If it were me, give me the upward trajectories of New Orleans (plus location and lifestyle) or OKC (owner willing to spend), but Doc pretty clearly wants to win now.

[Hards Alumni]

Doc to the 76ers.
Another missed opportunity.

Bad things happen in Philadelphia

[Billy Hoyle]

Wow that was pretty quick.  We'll see how the money comes out on it, but money all being equal, I'm not sure that the 76ers would be my top pick of the jobs that are open.  I think current roster talent is probably top of the list for Doc, so if you don't want to deal with Harden-Westbrook, this is pretty obviously the next best open gig. But Embiid-Simmons strikes me as a pretty difficult job, both on the court and personalities-wise. If it were me, give me the upward trajectories of New Orleans (plus location and lifestyle) or OKC (owner willing to spend), but Doc pretty clearly wants to win now.

One has to go for the team to take the next step. I say Simmons because he cannot (and won't) shoot from the perimeter, and has injury issues. Plus, he has the Kardashian Kurse on him. Jimmy Butler called him out as mentally soft too.