COVID Economy

[Hards Alumni]

Dems need to pull the plug. Then go to Georgia and outline exactly what the election means financially for people (stimulus, UI, and aid to states and small businesses).

They won't because 3/4th of the party is run by corporate America and has been since 1992.

[jesmu84]

They won't because 3/4th of the party is run by corporate America and has been since 1992.

This is sad/true. Biden stocking admin with goldman/black rock/mckinsey/raytheon

[shoothoops]

Joel Osteen with the $4.4 million PPP loan:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/religion/article/Joel-Osteen-s-Lakewood-Church-got-4-4M-in-15800887.php?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=twitter.com

Also:

Feeding America says over 50 million Americans are Food Insecure, up from 35 million prior to the Pandemic.

[jficke13]

Joel Osteen with the $4.4 million PPP loan:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/religion/article/Joel-Osteen-s-Lakewood-Church-got-4-4M-in-15800887.php?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=twitter.com

Also:

Feeding America says over 50 million Americans are Food Insecure, up from 35 million prior to the Pandemic.

John 2:13-16

[MU82]

This is sad/true. Biden stocking admin with goldman/black rock/mckinsey/raytheon

Not overjoyed by this.

Joel Osteen with the $4.4 million PPP loan:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/religion/article/Joel-Osteen-s-Lakewood-Church-got-4-4M-in-15800887.php?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=twitter.com

And don't get me started on this kind of crapola.

[MUBurrow]

This is sad/true. Biden stocking admin with goldman/black rock/mckinsey/raytheon

::shrieking voice:: STOP IT YOU ARE HANDING THE ELECTION TO TRUMMMMPPPPPPPP

[jesmu84]

Joel Osteen with the $4.4 million PPP loan:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/religion/article/Joel-Osteen-s-Lakewood-Church-got-4-4M-in-15800887.php?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=twitter.com

Also:

Feeding America says over 50 million Americans are Food Insecure, up from 35 million prior to the Pandemic.

Now do the stats for those behind on their mortgage/rent and facing evictions once the moratorium is ended

[Jockey]

They won't because 3/4th of the party is run by corporate America and has been since 1992.

You are right. That's why I just said they "need" to do it. Corporate America is about getting their share (plus most of other people's share) more than about controlling the Senate.

[jesmu84]

Can anyone confirm...

Today I heard that PPP loans (100% taxpayer-funded) were originally given out to businesses and, in exchange for the money, if 100% went to employees/payroll, the loans were forgiven.

But, somewhere in the legislative process, that % was changed to 60%. So any company that received money, only had to spend 60% of the total on payroll and the entire loan amount would be forgiven. That would mean any company who applied, got approved and accepted a loan of any amount, got a taxpayer-funded "gift" of 40% of the amount of the their loan.

Is that correct?

[jesmu84]

I am frequently reminded of this:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/federal-reserve-to-lend-additional-1-trillion-a-day-to-large-banks

I sure hope we have frequent discussions on what we can/can't afford for individual US citizens.

[rocky_warrior]

I sure hope we have frequent discussions on what we can/can't afford for individual US citizens.

While I'm not naïve enough to thing some of this money won't be wasted and is being throw away, you also seem to be ignoring that it's a loan. 

That is in addition to $1 trillion in 14-day loans it is offering every week. Banks, so far, have not borrowed nearly as much as the New York Fed is offering, and the loans are quickly repaid. None of the funding is from taxpayer dollars.

Also, a lot of this money is being loaned to communities since municipal bonds have lost favor:

All the Fed's emergency steps are intended to pump cash into a financial system that has seen a spike in demand for dollars as investors unload Treasuries, municipal bonds, and other securities. With the economy likely in recession, banks, money market funds and other institutional investors are increasingly wary about holding securities that may lose value.

Companies will see revenue and earnings plunge, while local and state governments are likely to see lower tax revenue. That makes it harder for them to borrow.

So in essence, some of these are loans to keep local government entities operating, and keep local (police, fire, schools, water) jobs in tact.

But the sheer volume of money needed is concerning...

[JWags85]

Can anyone confirm...

Today I heard that PPP loans (100% taxpayer-funded) were originally given out to businesses and, in exchange for the money, if 100% went to employees/payroll, the loans were forgiven.

But, somewhere in the legislative process, that % was changed to 60%. So any company that received money, only had to spend 60% of the total on payroll and the entire loan amount would be forgiven. That would mean any company who applied, got approved and accepted a loan of any amount, got a taxpayer-funded "gift" of 40% of the amount of the their loan.

Is that correct?

That 40% is not a free for all gifted bag of money. The "non-payroll" 40% portion includes rent, mortgage, and utilities paid. You need to layout what funds went where or you're not being forgiven. We just had our PPP forgiven and it was a 2-3 week process of clarifying and providing proof of valid expenditures

[jesmu84]

That 40% is not a free for all gifted bag of money. The "non-payroll" 40% portion includes rent, mortgage, and utilities paid. You need to layout what funds went where or you're not being forgiven. We just had our PPP forgiven and it was a 2-3 week process of clarifying and providing proof of valid expenditures

Thanks for clarifying

[jesmu84]

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/16/946739398/scores-of-private-charitable-foundations-got-paycheck-protection-program-money

[GooooMarquette]

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/16/946739398/scores-of-private-charitable-foundations-got-paycheck-protection-program-money

I would need to know lot more about what these foundations do before I decided whether this was troubling. If a foundation provides legitimate services to people in need, then I am all for them getting the same type of support as other businesses. But if the foundation is simply a vanity play for the founder (*cough, cough Trump Foundation*), then it would be infuriating.

[LON]

That 40% is not a free for all gifted bag of money. The "non-payroll" 40% portion includes rent, mortgage, and utilities paid. You need to layout what funds went where or you're not being forgiven. We just had our PPP forgiven and it was a 2-3 week process of clarifying and providing proof of valid expenditures

Also, if the loan was over $2M the SBA is going to do an audit.

[Skatastrophy]

I would need to know lot more about what these foundations do before I decided whether this was troubling. If a foundation provides legitimate services to people in need, then I am all for them getting the same type of support as other businesses. But if the foundation is simply a vanity play for the founder (*cough, cough Trump Foundation*), then it would be infuriating.

IMO the threshold is more simple: If you have people on payroll, and your business was negatively impacted by the pandemic, PPP should help you with payroll. No reason to terminate half of your staff because of something totally out of your control.

Even though I am fervently anti-religion, I think that threshold encompasses places of worship and private foundations. All businesses. PPP was capped at something like a $100k salary, which isnt' a ton in a HCOL area. Nobody deserves to lose their paycheck because of this temporary thing. This is literally why I pay my taxes, so that the gov't can provide a backstop in situations like these.

[GooooMarquette]

IMO the threshold is more simple: If you have people on payroll, and your business was negatively impacted by the pandemic, PPP should help you with payroll. No reason to terminate half of your staff because of something totally out of your control.

Even though I am fervently anti-religion, I think that threshold encompasses places of worship and private foundations. All businesses. PPP was capped at something like a $100k salary, which isnt' a ton in a HCOL area. Nobody deserves to lose their paycheck because of this temporary thing. This is literally why I pay my taxes, so that the gov't can provide a backstop in situations like these.

Very fair points.

[Hards Alumni]

IMO the threshold is more simple: If you have people on payroll, and your business was negatively impacted by the pandemic, PPP should help you with payroll. No reason to terminate half of your staff because of something totally out of your control.

Even though I am fervently anti-religion, I think that threshold encompasses places of worship and private foundations. All businesses. PPP was capped at something like a $100k salary, which isnt' a ton in a HCOL area. Nobody deserves to lose their paycheck because of this temporary thing. This is literally why I pay my taxes, so that the gov't can provide a backstop in situations like these.

Yup

[jesmu84]

I'm looking for more info, but it appears while the new stimulus doesn't include checks for individuals, it does include subsidies for defense contractors.

The stimulus legislation released by Republican and Democratic senators yesterday afternoon includes an extension of a program to replace the wages of certain government contractors who miss work due to COVID-19. The program, Section 3610 of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act, allows federal agencies to reimburse contractors who are unable to work in person due to the pandemic, and whose jobs do not allow telework, for up to forty hours per week of lost wages. In effect, the program uses government money to reimburse defense contractors for giving paid leave to their employees.

[Skatastrophy]

I'm looking for more info, but it appears while the new stimulus doesn't include checks for individuals, it does include subsidies for defense contractors.

According to Bloomberg as of 12pm ET:

The No. 2 Senate GOP leader said he expects the deal on pandemic relief to provide direct payments of $600 to $700 for individuals and $300-per-week in enhanced unemployment benefits.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/leaders-cite-progress-in-talks-no-deal-yet-congress-update?srnd=premium

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

IMO the threshold is more simple: If you have people on payroll, and your business was negatively impacted by the pandemic, PPP should help you with payroll. No reason to terminate half of your staff because of something totally out of your control.

Even though I am fervently anti-religion, I think that threshold encompasses places of worship and private foundations. All businesses. PPP was capped at something like a $100k salary, which isnt' a ton in a HCOL area. Nobody deserves to lose their paycheck because of this temporary thing. This is literally why I pay my taxes, so that the gov't can provide a backstop in situations like these.

This.  While we can laugh about Grover norquist and the ayn rand foundation, I will only really get upset if it's found that it didn't go for the intended uses.

[rocky_warrior]

it does include subsidies for defense contractors.

I can speak to this a bit.  There are many cases where people working in jobs directly relating to national security cannot report to their work locations.  At least to my knowledge it's not a slush fund, and being monitored very closely.  The idea is to keep those people employed because - well - national security.

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2144750/dod-allows-payments-to-contractors-who-cannot-work-due-to-covid-19-facility-clo/

[jesmu84]

Thanks for updates/clarification

A little more on the defense stuff: https://youtu.be/hxDw9l0Nyh4

[jesmu84]

I can speak to this a bit.  There are many cases where people working in jobs directly relating to national security cannot report to their work locations.  At least to my knowledge it's not a slush fund, and being monitored very closely.  The idea is to keep those people employed because - well - national security.

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2144750/dod-allows-payments-to-contractors-who-cannot-work-due-to-covid-19-facility-clo/

My only concerns...

1. There are a lot of americans who cannot report to their work locations. Where are their fully nationalized wages?

2. Does this timeline change the though process? https://twitter.com/GunnelsWarren/status/1338705234311442433?s=19