COVID Economy

[Jockey]

Hooray for the free market, right?

Anyhow, the average full-time fast food worker in the U.S. earns a shade under $24,000 a year.
Sticking to the maxim that you should spend no more than 30% of your income on housing, that's about $667 a month for rent.
Good luck with that in any major metro market.

I think that might be a misleading stat? Most hourly fast food workers are not full time. So, the average may be skewed by including managers.

[Pakuni]

I think that might be a misleading stat? Most hourly fast food workers are not full time. So, the average may be skewed by including managers.

I was using this, which lists "Fast Food and Counter Workers."
The median wage (not average, my bad) was "calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours."

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm

[warriorchick]

I was using this, which lists "Fast Food and Counter Workers."
The median wage (not average, my bad) was "calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours."

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm

These stats are 16 months old.  A lot has changed in the labor market since then, wouldn't you agree?

[Pakuni]

These stats are 16 months old.  A lot has changed in the labor market since then, wouldn't you agree?

Sure. Median wages have probably tripled. 

Just kidding. They're up 10% from last year, according to this report.
So now they can spend $734 a month on rent. Yuge.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fast-food-wages-climbed-10percent-in-latest-quarter-the-largest-jump-in-years-report-says.html

[Pakuni]

I mean, I know Chicago is "cheap" for a metro market, but running a quick search for 2BR apartments under $1250 I came up with 525 available in the city right now.  Get one of your fast food  coworkers to join you as a roommate, and you can be living large.

I'm very curious about where these units are located and the condition they're in. Because, according to this link below, that would be on the low end for any apartment - much less 2BR - in all but the least of Chicago neighborhoods.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/il/chicago/


Still, that's 525 apartments in a Metro area with nearly 1.1 million rental units. Not exactly widely available.

[jfmu]

This is interesting (albeit a little old) on wage and QSR food costs

https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/why-big-mac-costs-more-seattle-austin

[rocky_warrior]

I'm very curious about where these units are located and the condition they're in. Because, according to this link below, that would be on the low end for any apartment - much less 2BR - in all but the least of Chicago neighborhoods.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/il/chicago/


Still, that's 525 apartments in a Metro area with nearly 1.1 million rental units. Not exactly widely available.

It's easy to search   They're all over. And not a complete listing of units, just the ones apartments.com knows about.  Not everyone needs or deserves a new fancy apartment.  Especially if you're starting out with a fast food job.
https://www.apartments.com/chicago-il/min-2-bedrooms-under-1250/

[Pakuni]

It's easy to search   They're all over. And not a complete listing of units, just the ones apartments.com knows about.  Not everyone needs or deserves a new fancy apartment.  Especially if you're starting out with a fast food job.
https://www.apartments.com/chicago-il/min-2-bedrooms-under-1250/

I'm not saying everyone deserves a new fancy apartment. I'm just pointing out that fast food workers aren't suddenly living high on the hog because - gasp! - their wages have gone up a bit.

[rocky_warrior]

I'm not saying everyone deserves a new fancy apartment. I'm just pointing out that fast food workers aren't suddenly living high on the hog because - gasp! - their wages have gone up a bit.

Agreed.  Even though I threw in the "living large", I'm just also countering that 2 fast food workers could also likely survive without public assistance in Chicago.

[JWags85]

I'm not saying everyone deserves a new fancy apartment. I'm just pointing out that fast food workers aren't suddenly living high on the hog because - gasp! - their wages have gone up a bit.

But I think there is a difference between "high on the hog" and "good luck finding an apartment for $750 a month in a major metro".  Provided you're not living alone, it would be a breeze in Milwaukee and I know plenty of people who lived in decent areas on the North Side of Chicago for $7-800 in 2-3 BR apartments within the last 5-6 years.

[MU82]

But I think there is a difference between "high on the hog" and "good luck finding an apartment for $750 a month in a major metro".  Provided you're not living alone, it would be a breeze in Milwaukee and I know plenty of people who lived in decent areas on the North Side of Chicago for $7-800 in 2-3 BR apartments within the last 5-6 years.

Hmmm ... I lived on the North Side of Chicago for my entire time there. By the time we moved to Charlotte, it was hard to find any decent 2BR in any decent neighborhood for under $1,500 ... and that was 2010.

I just decided to fact-check myself. Went to apartments.com and searched for 2BR under $1,000. To say there were slim pickin's on the North Side would be an injustice to the term "slim pickin's." Here was one of the very few, showing what you get for $995: https://www.apartments.com/2039-n-western-ave-chicago-il/sktdsw5/

[The Sultan]

Hmmm ... I lived on the North Side of Chicago for my entire time there. By the time we moved to Charlotte, it was hard to find any decent 2BR in any decent neighborhood for under $1,500 ... and that was 2010.

I just decided to fact-check myself. Went to apartments.com and searched for 2BR under $1,000. To say there were slim pickin's on the North Side would be an injustice to the term "slim pickin's." Here was one of the very few, showing what you get for $995: https://www.apartments.com/2039-n-western-ave-chicago-il/sktdsw5/

I'm not sure Wags had Bucktown in mind....

[MU82]

I'm not sure Wags had Bucktown in mind....

I searched from the near North Side all the way up to the Evanston line. I actually was surprised that apartment I linked to was for under $1K, although it's tiny and it looks like shyte.

I don't like arguing for the sake of arguing ... but I really don't think there are too many 2BR apartments in any area on Chicago's North Side that any of us would consider "livable" for under $1K, let alone $7-800.

[Pakuni]

But I think there is a difference between "high on the hog" and "good luck finding an apartment for $750 a month in a major metro".  Provided you're not living alone, it would be a breeze in Milwaukee and I know plenty of people who lived in decent areas on the North Side of Chicago for $7-800 in 2-3 BR apartments within the last 5-6 years.

I'd be interested in knowing more about these people living in $700-$800 two- to three-bedroom apartments on the North Side. Where are they?
Average monthly rent of a two-bedroom unit by Chicago neighborhood:

Albany Park - $1,413
Bucktown - $1,800
DePaul - $2,000
Edgewater Beach - $1,822
Edgwater - $1,700
Irving Park - $1,500
Lincoln Park - $2,190
Margate Park - $1,359 (1 bedroom)
Old Town - $2,900
Ravenswood - $1,673
Rogers Park - $1,428
West Rogers Park - $1,365
Wrightwood - $1,995

https://www.renthop.com/average-rent-in/chicago-il

I'm not saying there may not be some great deals out there, but if you're getting a 2+ bedroom on the North Side for under $800, you're very, very much the exception.

[JWags85]

I'd be interested in knowing more about these people living in $700-$800 two- to three-bedroom apartments on the North Side. Where are they?
Average monthly rent of a two-bedroom unit by Chicago neighborhood:

Albany Park - $1,413
Bucktown - $1,800
DePaul - $2,000
Edgewater Beach - $1,822
Edgwater - $1,700
Irving Park - $1,500
Lincoln Park - $2,190
Margate Park - $1,359 (1 bedroom)
Old Town - $2,900
Ravenswood - $1,673
Rogers Park - $1,428
West Rogers Park - $1,365
Wrightwood - $1,995

https://www.renthop.com/average-rent-in/chicago-il

I'm not saying there may not be some great deals out there, but if you're getting a 2+ bedroom on the North Side for under $800, you're very, very much the exception.

Sorry, I worded it poorly on further reads.  I obviously meant paying $7-800 per person in 2-3 BR apartments.

And its changing, but for a long time, so many great apartments for good prices were owner-rented, and those wouldn't show up on the Apartment tracking websites.

[MU82]

Sorry, I worded it poorly on further reads.  I obviously meant paying $7-800 per person in 2-3 BR apartments.

And its changing, but for a long time, so many great apartments for good prices were owner-rented, and those wouldn't show up on the Apartment tracking websites.

Ah ... that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying, Wags.

[MU82]

Mandates work.

United Airlines, which announced a mandate in August, recently reported that 99 percent of its workers had been vaccinated and that it had received 20,000 applications for about 2,000 flight attendant positions, a much higher ratio than before the pandemic. Tyson Foods reported a 91 percent vaccination rate ahead of a November deadline, compared with less than half before its mandate announcement in August.

[jesmu84]

Re: jobs report..

What happened to the idea that enhanced unemployment benefits were the reason people weren't working?

[Jockey]

Re: jobs report..

What happened to the idea that enhanced unemployment benefits were the reason people weren't working?

They moved on to demanding more election audits. 

[MU82]

Re: jobs report..

What happened to the idea that enhanced unemployment benefits were the reason people weren't working?

I understand the argument on its face. It's logical. Except then the evidence started coming out that it had little to do with unemployment benefits, but by that time they were in double-down and triple-down mode.

Child care is a farce in this country. Child-care workers aren't paid squat, and yet the parents who need it most can't afford it.

[mu_hilltopper]

Re: Childcare .. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/upshot/child-care-biden.html

Astonishing child-care spending in the EU.

--

.. In honesty, has anyone seen an explanation why the unemployment rate isn't ~2% right now?   

I thought part of receiving unemployment was some form of "have you looked for work this week?" .. I'd think they'd need to ask the question "how did you not get 5 job offers this week?"

[forgetful]

Re: Childcare .. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/upshot/child-care-biden.html

Astonishing child-care spending in the EU.

--

.. In honesty, has anyone seen an explanation why the unemployment rate isn't ~2% right now?   

I thought part of receiving unemployment was some form of "have you looked for work this week?" .. I'd think they'd need to ask the question "how did you not get 5 job offers this week?"

You've made the mistake of assuming that the unemployment rate only includes those receiving some form of benefits. It includes all who are seeking work, but still unemployed

A lot of people right now can't afford to take many of the jobs, because it would cost more in child care than the job actually pays.

There was a local dentist complaining about not being able to hire a dental assistant. His complaint was either they had no experience, or if they had more experience wanted more pay (he was offering $30k). The problem wasn't people not wanting to work, it was unrealistic expectations of the labor force, that is too low for an experienced person.

They added to the complaint that they used to have no problem getting someone to take the job as a 2nd family income (not needing high pay then). They refused to acknowledge that given current child care costs that isn't going to happen for $30k...instead blaming it on people just not wanting to work anymore.

The labor market has changed. Employers need to realize that.

[JWags85]

You've made the mistake of assuming that the unemployment rate only includes those receiving some form of benefits. It includes all who are seeking work, but still unemployed

A lot of people right now can't afford to take many of the jobs, because it would cost more in child care than the job actually pays.

There was a local dentist complaining about not being able to hire a dental assistant. His complaint was either they had no experience, or if they had more experience wanted more pay (he was offering $30k). The problem wasn't people not wanting to work, it was unrealistic expectations of the labor force, that is too low for an experienced person.

They added to the complaint that they used to have no problem getting someone to take the job as a 2nd family income (not needing high pay then). They refused to acknowledge that given current child care costs that isn't going to happen for $30k...instead blaming it on people just not wanting to work anymore.

The labor market has changed. Employers need to realize that.

I think there is some equilibrium that needs to be found.  I think while its unreasonable for employers to think that pay can be the same as it was in 2018 or some other time pre-pandemic, I think its also unrealistic for employees to suddenly think that all compensation can shift upwards to encapsulate any new costs that may be occurred based on changes in childcare, healthcare, etc... because as much as we all want to be moved on, things are still influx and abnormal.

[jesmu84]

Trickle down any day now....

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/money/2021/10/09/Top-1-of-US-earners-now-hold-more-wealth-than-all-of-the-middle-class/stories/202110090024

[mu_hilltopper]

I think there is some equilibrium that needs to be found.  I think while its unreasonable for employers to think that pay can be the same as it was in 2018 or some other time pre-pandemic, I think its also unrealistic for employees to suddenly think that all compensation can shift upwards to encapsulate any new costs that may be occurred based on changes in childcare, healthcare, etc... because as much as we all want to be moved on, things are still influx and abnormal.

Agree on all that, and I do not know how it will all end.   At the moment, I'd have to guess that there will be a great rotation and those lower-level non-career jobs like hotels, restaurants .. will continue to be unfilled and more and more owners will throw in the towel.

There's a high quality restaurant a block from me that is currently closed due to staffing.  They've been opening and closing over the past 6 months.   If staffing doesn't resolve in XX months, they'll just have to close it up. -- which is my current bet.

The claim of "well, they should pay more" only works for a while.  When the pizza has to be $40 to pay for the cook and waitress, your customers will stay home.

Your local Subway owner makes $50k.  If they have to add $25k more in salary to pay for labor, you might as well close.