2020-2021 Season

[The Sultan]

5 games averaging 21 minutes to close the season!  Awesomely long leash while Brendan was bricking.

I will say Wojo did give a slightly longer leash this year (as opposed to his historic one missed shot or turnover hook with Jamal), but it is what it is:  The way he coaches kills confidence and limits potential.

Player development under him has sucked. Either results in transfer, regression, or stagnation.

Eh, I don't think player development under Wojo has been that much different than his predecessors.  Buzz had a bunch of guys that never really developed and/or transferred.  I just think he found better players. 

Your obsession with some players and your insistance that the coach messing with their minds when they don't meet your expectations is really strange.  This is big boy basketball.  When you play well, you get to play more. 

[HutchwasClutch]

Eh, I don't think player development under Wojo has been that much different than his predecessors.  Buzz had a bunch of guys that never really developed and/or transferred.  I just think he found better players. 

Agree to an extent, Buzz certainly did have misses, especially with several from high school, but the following: 

Jimmy Butler went from a timid looking JC transfer who almost no one else recruited, to an absolute stud and leader by his senior season. Rest is history of course his post MU career.

Vander was highly touted and very athletic out of hs, but had a broken shot and flaws in his game. Then by junior season, took off and one of leaders, go to guy in clutch, and arguably our best player on elite 8 team. 

Wes Matthews absolutely took off his senior season under Buzz after looking pretty ordinary his first 3 years. Wes wasn't shy in crediting Buzz publicly.

Now name a Wojo success in development that even approaches any of these three.  I know you're not a Wojo guy either, but huge difference in player development.

[The Sultan]

I'll give you Vander...and Davante too.  But look at Sacar and Markus. 

I think Butler and Jae would have been Butler and Jae had they gone somewhere other than Marquette.  I think the idea that Butler was "timid" as a sophomore is one of the most overblown ideas here.  He deferred offensively and didn't play huge minutes because he the Amigos and Lazar ahead of him, but when he was on the floor he was clearly a kick-ass, athletic defender. 

But I also look at players like Cadougan, Anderson, Derrick and the mutitude of transfers like Jamail Jones, Erik Williams and Jamal Ferguson and don't think his record is that much different.

[HutchwasClutch]

I'll give you Vander...and Davante too.  But look at Sacar and Markus. 

I think Butler and Jae would have been Butler and Jae had they gone somewhere other than Marquette.  I think the idea that Butler was "timid" as a sophomore is one of the most overblown ideas here.  He deferred offensively and didn't play huge minutes because he the Amigos and Lazar ahead of him, but when he was on the floor he was clearly a kick-ass, athletic defender. 

But I also look at players like Cadougan, Anderson, Derrick and the mutitude of transfers like Jamail Jones, Erik Williams and Jamal Ferguson and don't think his record is that much different.

I didn't name Davante, but ok.

I didn't name Jae either and why I didn't was that you got right.

Markus?!?  He wasn't a playmaker, couldn't defend, and had at best a mediocre handle when he got to MU and left with all the same deficiencies. Wojo hardly had anything to do with his crazy shooting ability.  It's what got attention of high majors.

Sacar, some improvement at MU, yes, but I asked for anything approaching three examples I actually named. He clearly isn't. One of worst senior season stretch chokes season in recent MU memory.  He essentially came into MU as a role player and left the same.  He was a core guy this year by default, thanks largely to Hauser transfers. He had to fill a role of points and production he wasn't up to.

Butler is the poster child of great player development as I explained already. Taking a guy hardly anyone wanted and left MU as a star and drafted player.

[The Sultan]

Markus TO rate went down...his assist rate went up.  You are right that Wojo didn't have much to do with his shooting ability, but did you foresee him becoming an All American and BEPOY even after his freshman year?

[WarriorFan]

Markus TO rate went down...his assist rate went up.  You are right that Wojo didn't have much to do with his shooting ability, but did you foresee him becoming an All American and BEPOY even after his freshman year?

Wojo did.

It's not fair IMHO to make this about Markus.  Markus developed Markus.  Wojo hasn't developed much at all.  Buzz had a couple successes and he certainly knew how to make guys confident on game day.  No excuses... Wojo needs to do better. 

Why can't Jamal dribble as a Junior?
Why is he developing Theo as a two move "big" in the era of stretch guys who must be able to shoot?
Why can't BB make the impact that his size, length, sweet stroke and pedigree should have?
Why did he and/or Ed give up on Ed?
why does Koby throw 2 balls per game into the audience after 2 years in the program?

Wojo either needs to upgrade to Kentucky level talent and do what Calipari does... (don't coach them at all) or get a group of assistants that can make 3* freshmen into 5* seniors.

[Elonsmusk]

Eh, I don't think player development under Wojo has been that much different than his predecessors.  Buzz had a bunch of guys that never really developed and/or transferred.  I just think he found better players. 

Your obsession with some players and your insistance that the coach messing with their minds when they don't meet your expectations is really strange.  This is big boy basketball.  When you play well, you get to play more.

The results speak for themselves. As I've said perhaps 100 times - just because a guy comes in a game and has a turnover or misses his first couple of shots doesn't mean he's going to have a crappy game.

My issue with Wojo?  He has routinely gotten it wrong as to who his best players were, and who had highest potential. And most notably who he's extended the longest leash to once past the clear cut top two players on his teams.

Again. The "results" speak for themselves.

We clearly agree that Buzz was a better coach. Yet Wojo's decision-making has really hamstrung his ability to be successful. He's just not very sharp.

[MU82]

Coming from the guy who has been a top 5 ProJo, I could give a F how you perceive right and wrong.

But. I will tell you. Your perception of being right or wrong is virtually always wrong.

What's really fantastic?  Despite being presented with a mountain of evidence that Wojo is a failure, you still can't bring yourself after 5+ years of banging the drum for Wojo - preaching for patience - to admit you were and are wrong.

And you post the above crap?  Gimme a break.

However, you were a sports journalist and do coach middle school girls basketball. So. There's that.

You were wrong about Cain. Simply can't admit it, because that's you. So, so, so many things to legitimately rip Wojo for, but you have some weird Wojo-messes-with-Cain obsession, despite the data.

Congrats on the "you were a sports journalist" and "girls basketball" mentions - hoopaloop also likes to trot those out when facts let him down. Well done.

As to the Projo/Nojo thing ...

On 1/28/20, I started a thread titled "Bottom Line on Wojo."

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59855.msg1200555#msg1200555

Among the things I said:

++ Get into the NCAA tournament this season, advance to the Sweet 16 or beyond, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will upgrade to full-on Projo.

++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain "leaning Projo," which is where I think I have been for awhile now (though I did waver in the wake of Hausershima because I was worried about how it would affect recruiting).

++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance - or fail to reach the tourney entirely - and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode (or "leaning Nojo," for folks who prefer that term). For the first time, he will officially be "on the clock" for me.

++ Fail to reach the tourney this season and 2020-21, regardless of the inevitable "too young" excuse for next season, and I'll join those shouting for him to go. (Caveat: If there is some ridiculous injury wave that would prevent any coach from winning, I could cut him some slack. Unlikely to happen.)

Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March. But to NEVER win in March ... that suggests something more than simply bad luck. Each of his four predecessors, guys of varying degrees of coaching/recruiting ability, managed to do it.

I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.

So that brings me to now. We were officially in Collapse Mode again when the coronavirus ended the season. Very disappointing. It's likely that we still would have made the tournament but quite unlikely we would have won a game.

So I am now a "leaning Nojo," and I have put him on the clock.

Still, that doesn't mean I believe he is the worst coach ever, is to blame for the coronavirus and is guilty of every ill imaginable - such as freaking out Cain, when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Have a nice day.

[The Sultan]

Wojo did.

It's not fair IMHO to make this about Markus.  Markus developed Markus.  Wojo hasn't developed much at all. 

Yeah this is just biased bullsh*t.  You can't say the head coach can't develop someone, then point to a success, and say well that guy just made himself better.

[The Sultan]

The results speak for themselves. As I've said perhaps 100 times - just because a guy comes in a game and has a turnover or misses his first couple of shots doesn't mean he's going to have a crappy game.

My issue with Wojo?  He has routinely gotten it wrong as to who his best players were, and who had highest potential. And most notably who he's extended the longest leash to once past the clear cut top two players on his teams.

Again. The "results" speak for themselves.

We clearly agree that Buzz was a better coach. Yet Wojo's decision-making has really hamstrung his ability to be successful. He's just not very sharp.

I agree that Buzz is a better coach.  But I don't think Wojo isn't playing his best players.  I just don't think most of them are as good as we think they are.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I agree that Buzz is a better coach.  But I don't think Wojo isn't playing his best players.  I just don't think most of them are as good as we think they are.

This usually shows itself when you notice players looking great against lesser competition.  Then struggling in conference.  Over generalization. But We have seen a lot of that in Wojos tenure. 

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

This usually shows itself when you notice players looking great against lesser competition.  Then struggling in conference.  Over generalization. But We have seen a lot of that in Wojos tenure.

Point in example:  PR department and Jayce's rebounding.  Meanwhile, he's an absolute liability on offense/defense.  1 trick pony that the Pro Wojers love, especially since he has the same haircut as when they were in school. 

[wadesworld]

Point in example:  PR department and Jayce's rebounding.  Meanwhile, he's an absolute liability on offense/defense.  1 trick pony that the Pro Wojers love, especially since he has the same haircut as when they were in school.

Jayce was an absolute liability on both offense and defense? He only rebounded well against inferior opponents?

What are you even talking about?

[oldwarrior81]

Jayce Johnson averaged a rebound every 2.54 minutes this season.  You'd have to go back 40-50 years to find something nearing that ratio.

In non-conference he had 1 every 2.45 minutes.  In conference games, 1 every 2.60 minutes.    Elite level rebounder.

Not really someone you'd want to run a lowpost offense through.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Simply didn't happen the second half of this season. Wojo gave Cain a lot of rope, often played him more minutes than Bailey. Cain averaged 18 mpg and averaged nearly 21 the last 5 games, roughly the same as Bailey.

So while your assertion might have had merit the previous two seasons, it did not this season. Cain took plenty of bad shots and/or had plenty of ugly TOs without being pulled from games.

Plenty of stuff to rip Wojo about, and you've done so. Don't make crap up.

Agree Jamal made tons of mistakes and didnt get pulled.  In fact sometimes i think Jamal was too quick to shoot.  I like to see a sub run up n down the court a few times and get into the game flow before shooting.  Not Jamal, he would usually jack one the first time he touched it.  The depaul game i believe he traveled 3 out of 4 possesions and remained in the game before Wojo simply had to take him out.  Jamal took two very quick shots down the stretch versus SJU where i would gave like to seen Markus at least touch the ball.  I disagree with elons premise, in fact, i would like to see Wojo be a little more restrictive on shooters.  Oneil and famously Al McGuire gad players that he told then that they were not allowed to shoot.  other coaches have done the same.  My HS team which was coached by a legendary HOF coach n coached many D1 kids told two starters my senior year on numerous times in rather colorful language that if they shot they were coming out.  Now i realize the shot clock and times have changed but wojo seems to tell them if its an open shot to take it.  How else could Koby and others just keep jacking despite what the percentages said they should do

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

I agree that Buzz is a better coach.  But I don't think Wojo isn't playing his best players.  I just don't think most of them are as good as we think they are.

Which of our starters start for any other BE team? Markus and........?
Thats on Wojo too, but Sacar n Theo and Koby dont start for any top 7 BE team.  I will give bailey a bit of a pass as a sophomore and thought he played quite well the first 20 games.  Wojo needs to recruit better.  Sacar top 300 kid. Jamal, theo, koby top 150 kids.  Need more top 100 kids in the program, two of them transferring didnt help

[Lennys Tap]

I agree that Buzz is a better coach.  But I don't think Wojo isn't playing his best players.  I just don't think most of them are as good as we think they are.

I agree - actually think one of Wojo's strengths is in game player evaluation, which is important because with the exception of Markus there's little difference in this year's players talent levels.

I do, however, agree with Elon that Wojo screwed the pooch with Deonte. He was a big talent going through a difficult time. I know coaches routinely favor "their own guys" but I wish he would have gone the extra mile with Burton.

[Lennys Tap]

Which of our starters start for any other BE team? Markus and........?
Thats on Wojo too, but Sacar n Theo and Koby dont start for any top 7 BE team.  I will give bailey a bit of a pass as a sophomore and thought he played quite well the first 20 games.  Wojo needs to recruit better.  Sacar top 300 kid. Jamal, theo, koby top 150 kids.  Need more top 100 kids in the program, two of them transferring didnt help

Wow. This is a long way from your previous position that we would be better team minus the 2 white stiffs. BTW, you're right that Sacar, Koby and Theo don't start on a top 7 BE team. Do they start on ANY other BE team? And you can add Bailey (the guy you thought would be better than Sam, lol) to that list.

[Johnny B]

Is guru banned? Feel bad for the dude. You ok guru

[Ardmore Mug]

I sure hope he is banned ! ! !   A couple other ones too ! ! !   Thank God for IGNORE ! ! !8-)

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Wow. This is a long way from your previous position that we would be better team minus the 2 white stiffs. BTW, you're right that Sacar, Koby and Theo don't start on a top 7 BE team. Do they start on ANY other BE team? And you can add Bailey (the guy you thought would be better than Sam, lol) to that list.

Never said BB would be better than Sam, said if Bailey played well we didnt miss Sam. 

[The Sultan]

I sure hope he is banned ! ! !   A couple other ones too ! ! !   Thank God for IGNORE ! ! !8-)

Why?  Guru can be a bit maddening, but he's always on topic at least.

[WarriorFan]

Yeah this is just biased bullsh*t.  You can't say the head coach can't develop someone, then point to a success, and say well that guy just made himself better.

I respect your point of view.  I was generally projo and a I really like the clean program.  My view is that Markus has a strong structure back home with his parents and brother and that what he added to his game (mostly individual stuff) was his and from his dad/brother.  Markus' team game didn't change much over the 4 years and that's where Wojo could have developed him more.  I said at the beginning of the year that success for Markus would be 20 points and 8-10 assists per game - Ja Morant kind of numbers - because they would bring team success.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

I respect your point of view.  I was generally projo and a I really like the clean program.  My view is that Markus has a strong structure back home with his parents and brother and that what he added to his game (mostly individual stuff) was his and from his dad/brother.  Markus' team game didn't change much over the 4 years and that's where Wojo could have developed him more.  I said at the beginning of the year that success for Markus would be 20 points and 8-10 assists per game - Ja Morant kind of numbers - because they would bring team success.

How many wide open passes did he make to theo, koby, sacar, and brendan.  Wouldnt have gotten him to 9, but he was passing to some flat out brick layers

[The Sultan]

How many wide open passes did he make to theo, koby, sacar, and brendan.  Wouldnt have gotten him to 9, but he was passing to some flat out brick layers

Exactly.  Markus was much better this year at ball distribution.  If he had someone with the scoring caliber of Sam on the wings, his assist numbers would have been much better.