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Author Topic: Major MLB changes coming?  (Read 10030 times)

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2020, 10:37:23 AM »
I'm not sure what "points" on this issue are going to do for the MLBPA anyway.  Until players are going to actually force a work stoppage on this or any other issue, the owers are going to "win" almost every negotiation.  And they have more money to wait out the players anyway.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #76 on: February 17, 2020, 08:12:31 PM »
I asked because, as we know, the steroid guys have been kept out. The cheating that Altuve and Bregman did is, to me at least, much worse.

Personally, I have no problem with the steroid guys getting into the Hall - we certainly have a fair share of drunks and druggies there - but I am torn on these guys from the Astros.

I wouldn’t vote for for either the steroid guys or these Astro cheats, but I agree that the Astros are worse.

An analogy that I heard that I think fits:Imagine baseball as a poker game. What the steroid guys did was take a drug to boost their IQs 20 points. The Astros put mirrors behind their opponents to look at their hands. Pretty clear to me which is worse.

Jockey

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #77 on: February 17, 2020, 08:28:12 PM »
I wouldn’t vote for for either the steroid guys or these Astro cheats, but I agree that the Astros are worse.

An analogy that I heard that I think fits:Imagine baseball as a poker game. What the steroid guys did was take a drug to boost their IQs 20 points. The Astros put mirrors behind their opponents to look at their hands. Pretty clear to me which is worse.

Thanks, Lenny. That was a pretty good analogy.

In real life, here is the best way I can explain it. By the end of this week, Teams will start Live BP. This is done in two different ways so that pitchers and catchers can work on their timing. The first is when the batters know what pitches are coming; the second method simulates game conditions and batters don't know what is coming from the pitcher.

The big difference is that pitchers use the 'L' screen on the mound to hide behind when the batters know what is coming. There is no screen when they throw without hitters knowing the pitch.

I think it is pretty obvious to every real baseball fan how the Astros' hitters were helped by the sign stealing. When you have quiet, "don't rock the boat" guys like Bryant and Trout going after the Astros and Manfred - that speaks volumes.

To make things worse, Manfred says guys that throw at Astro hitters will be punished. Players who cheat will not be punished.

Cheeks

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2020, 08:33:55 PM »
I wouldn’t vote for for either the steroid guys or these Astro cheats, but I agree that the Astros are worse.

An analogy that I heard that I think fits:Imagine baseball as a poker game. What the steroid guys did was take a drug to boost their IQs 20 points. The Astros put mirrors behind their opponents to look at their hands. Pretty clear to me which is worse.

LOL


Steroids guy did something that impacts 162 games and did it repeatedly year after year so * by 162.

Astros, from what we know, did something that impacted about 40 to 50 games for one season only.

HMM...which one has a bigger impact?  LOL
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Pakuni

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2020, 08:50:58 PM »
LOL


Steroids guy did something that impacts 162 games and did it repeatedly year after year so * by 162.

Astros, from what we know, did something that impacted about 40 to 50 games for one season only.

HMM...which one has a bigger impact?  LOL

On the other hand, every single player in the major leagues could have obtained steroids or other PEDs, and the only thing preventing a player from gaining that advantage was his willingness to use them. Their use was quite widespread across the entire league, so that no one team had exclusive advantage over any others.

The Astros' scheme benefited the Astros and the Astros only, was not available to other clubs or players, and occurred to the detriment of every other team and player.
Plus, I think a good case can be made that knowing what pitch is coming is significantly more advantageous to a batter than having bigger muscles.

There are  arguments to be made on both sides, and Jockey's and Lenny's positions aren't at all unreasonable.

And the Astros did it for more than one season and more than 40-50 games. An Astros fan who reviewed 58 homes games from 2017 that were available on video found evidence of sign stealing in all but two of those games. There were another 23 games with no video available, but if they cheated at a similar rate as those other 58, you're looking at 70+ games of cheating in just one season.

Eldon

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2020, 09:05:01 PM »
LOL


Steroids guy did something that impacts 162 games and did it repeatedly year after year so * by 162.

Astros, from what we know, did something that impacted about 40 to 50 games for one season only.

HMM...which one has a bigger impact?  LOL

According to the Journal, even though the banging scheme had ceased by the end of the 2017 regular season, the Astros continued using Codebreaker during the 2018 season, relaying signs more discreetly than by making loud thumping sounds. Houston also used Codebreaker to steal signs in away games, too, according to the Journal, which also reported that Luhnow received had received at least two emails documenting the scheme.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/08/astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-sign-stealing

Cheeks

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2020, 09:22:57 PM »
On the other hand, every single player in the major leagues could have obtained steroids or other PEDs, and the only thing preventing a player from gaining that advantage was his willingness to use them. Their use was quite widespread across the entire league, so that no one team had exclusive advantage over any others.

The Astros' scheme benefited the Astros and the Astros only, was not available to other clubs or players, and occurred to the detriment of every other team and player.
Plus, I think a good case can be made that knowing what pitch is coming is significantly more advantageous to a batter than having bigger muscles.

There are  arguments to be made on both sides, and Jockey's and Lenny's positions aren't at all unreasonable.

And the Astros did it for more than one season and more than 40-50 games. An Astros fan who reviewed 58 homes games from 2017 that were available on video found evidence of sign stealing in all but two of those games. There were another 23 games with no video available, but if they cheated at a similar rate as those other 58, you're looking at 70+ games of cheating in just one season.

Sure and other teams have been accused of stealing signs, including the Brewers, Red Sox, Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, and Nationals.  Articles about each of them. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if every team wasn't doing it to some degree with the sole intention of helping their club. 

When you are roided up, it's in your system for every at bat, every sprint to first base and beyond, etc, etc.  The benefits are there.  As some of these "analysis" have shown, often this scheme the Astros had didn't work at all or the signal got there too late....pitchers adjusted, etc.   Yes, both sides can make the claims, but the sure number of games influenced by the roid takers is more than some home games only.  Let's not forget that several Astros have been identified as not participating at all.

And as far as the preposterous claims that it is worse than what the Black Sox did....LOL.  What a terrible take some have here on that one.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Major MLB changes coming?
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2020, 12:04:55 PM »
According to the Journal, even though the banging scheme had ceased by the end of the 2017 regular season, the Astros continued using Codebreaker during the 2018 season, relaying signs more discreetly than by making loud thumping sounds. Houston also used Codebreaker to steal signs in away games, too, according to the Journal, which also reported that Luhnow received had received at least two emails documenting the scheme.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/08/astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-sign-stealing
Exactly, why would they limit it to home games when you have the same centerfield shot of the catcher putting down the signs available in virtually every game, home OR away? With the app they developed they could almost instantly relay that to the batter.
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