MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Cheeks on February 10, 2020, 11:07:44 PM
-
Thoughts?
https://nypost.com/2020/02/10/mlb-plotting-playoff-expansion-with-reality-tv-twist/
-
Trying too hard.
-
The pick-your-opponent twist seems a little gimmicky to me, but I'm all for increasing the number of playoff teams. Too many teams are all-but-eliminated by mid-August, and this will help keep more teams in the running for longer. It should also break up some of the tanking, especially in the AL where three of the playoff spots are pre-determined every year.
-
The pick-your-opponent twist seems a little gimmicky to me...
Yeah, it does sound gimmicky...and completely awesome. I actually like the proposed changes. I love the idea of the two division winners picking their opponent and giving them the ultimate bulletin board material.
-
I like it.
I like it more as a Twins fan, that maybe we could pick to not play the f***ing Yankees each year and go winless.
-
The pick-your-opponent twist seems a little gimmicky to me, but I'm all for increasing the number of playoff teams. Too many teams are all-but-eliminated by mid-August, and this will help keep more teams in the running for longer. It should also break up some of the tanking, especially in the AL where three of the playoff spots are pre-determined every year.
Disagree. You are playing 162 games to separate the wheat from the chaff. 7 teams means just shy of half the teams (46.7%) make it, which I suspect will get you an under .500 team every now and again. That is way too many teams. I am a Red Sox fan, and they would have played in the playoffs under this scenario. That team had no business being in the postseason. And neither they nor the Indians nor anybody else would have been playing for much in September because they would have had those seeds tied up already. In the NL the Mets, Cubs and D-backs would have been fighting it out for the 6th and 7th slots. I guess that's exciting. If the Mets made it, I suspect they would have played the Braves. Do we really want the Braves to have to beat the Mets again in a three game series after they spent 162 games proving they are the better team?
-
Disagree. You are playing 162 games to separate the wheat from the chaff. 7 teams means just shy of half the teams (46.7%) make it, which I suspect will get you an under .500 team every now and again. That is way too many teams. I am a Red Sox fan, and they would have played in the playoffs under this scenario. That team had no business being in the postseason. And neither they nor the Indians nor anybody else would have been playing for much in September because they would have had those seeds tied up already. In the NL the Mets, Cubs and D-backs would have been fighting it out for the 6th and 7th slots. I guess that's exciting. If the Mets made it, I suspect they would have played the Braves. Do we really want the Braves to have to beat the Mets again in a three game series after they spent 162 games proving they are the better team?
Totally understand this take.
However, this is the take every time any governing body (including MLB's) expands the postseason. Folks whine about it for awhile, then it simply becomes part of what is.
I'm also a fan of "less is more," but I understand the financial incentive of keeping more teams alive for playoff spots as long as possible in every sport.
As for the pick-your-own-opponent thing ... it is definitely a gimmick, but I agree with 'topper that it's a pretty cool one. I wouldn't hate it. And if they decide not to do it that way, that would be fine with me, too.
-
Not to mention its the playoffs that draw the TV ratings, and September baseball just gets lost when football starts up and kids go back to school, etc.
-
However, this is the take every time any governing body (including MLB's) expands the postseason. Folks whine about it for awhile, then it simply becomes part of what is.
Of course this is true. If you love baseball, what choice do you have but accept it? As long as there are an odd number of divisions that don't play the same schedule, a wild card for the best 2nd place team makes good sense to me, because that team will often/usually be better than the worst first place team. Beyond that I'd rather there not be any more. I get that people like the one game winner take all nature of the wild card game, but I hate the idea that after a 162 game schedule, and 85 win team can knock out a 100 win team by winning one road game. It will add a few more days to the postseason. I look forward to those November games in NY or Chicago or hopefully Milwaukee.
If they do do it, I think the best starting pitchers are going to see their salaries go up. Now you can have an OK team, pretty much rely on the play-offs if you can get 85 wins and if you have 2 or 3 starters, ride them in the postseason.
-
Of course this is true. If you love baseball, what choice do you have but accept it? As long as there are an odd number of divisions that don't play the same schedule, a wild card for the best 2nd place team makes good sense to me, because that team will often/usually be better than the worst first place team. Beyond that I'd rather there not be any more. I get that people like the one game winner take all nature of the wild card game, but I hate the idea that after a 162 game schedule, and 85 win team can knock out a 100 win team by winning one road game. It will add a few more days to the postseason. I look forward to those November games in NY or Chicago or hopefully Milwaukee.
If they do do it, I think the best starting pitchers are going to see their salaries go up. Now you can have an OK team, pretty much rely on the play-offs if you can get 85 wins and if you have 2 or 3 starters, ride them in the postseason.
Agree about the longer-postseason factor and potentially horrendous weather in several spots.
The logical thing to do if you want to expand the postseason would be to shorten the regular season by at least a couple weeks so it starts after April 1 and ends by Sept. 20-something.
But I'm guessing the players would only agree to that if it didn't mean a corresponding drop in salary, and the owners would only agree to that if it did. In other words ... ain't gonna happen.
-
Agree about the longer-postseason factor and potentially horrendous weather in several spots.
The logical thing to do if you want to expand the postseason would be to shorten the regular season by at least a couple weeks so it starts after April 1 and ends by Sept. 20-something.
But I'm guessing the players would only agree to that if it didn't mean a corresponding drop in salary, and the owners would only agree to that if it did. In other words ... ain't gonna happen.
I think even a drop back to 154 would work. Shorten the season by just over a week, and add three days to the playoffs.
Or would it actually just be two additional days since the current single wild-card game would be replaced by a three-game series?
-
Against it. Gimmicky.
-
Against it. Gimmicky.
The same for me.
-
I think even a drop back to 154 would work. Shorten the season by just over a week, and add three days to the playoffs.
Or would it actually just be two additional days since the current single wild-card game would be replaced by a three-game series?
Would teams make for money with 8 less games?
Less TV money, less concessions, less tickets, etc. Owners won't go for 154 games if it brings in less.
-
Would teams make for money with 8 less games?
Less TV money, less concessions, less tickets, etc. Owners won't go for 154 games if it brings in less.
I wasn't really arguing that owners would go for it, but was just commenting that even shortening the season by eight games would take care of the "playing into November" issue.
I think another question would be how much could MLB get by adding as many as eight additional playoff games in each league? How much lost revenue from 8 fewer regular season games (presumably four home games) could be offset by additional revenue from additional playoff games?
-
The same for me.
Ditto.
-
Disagree. You are playing 162 games to separate the wheat from the chaff. 7 teams means just shy of half the teams (46.7%) make it, which I suspect will get you an under .500 team every now and again. That is way too many teams. I am a Red Sox fan, and they would have played in the playoffs under this scenario. That team had no business being in the postseason. And neither they nor the Indians nor anybody else would have been playing for much in September because they would have had those seeds tied up already. In the NL the Mets, Cubs and D-backs would have been fighting it out for the 6th and 7th slots. I guess that's exciting. If the Mets made it, I suspect they would have played the Braves. Do we really want the Braves to have to beat the Mets again in a three game series after they spent 162 games proving they are the better team?
I agree CT. Let's not reward mediocrity.
In the last 10 years, 8 teams that were .500 or worse would have gotten into the Playoffs - not to mention several others that were 1 or 2 games over .500.
-
I love baseball. So this feels like a really bad idea to me.
That said, the MLB is fairly concerned about its future up against other sports. I don't look at this as desperate, but just facing reality. All said and done, I prefer this to some awful in game change, which is what I fear much more as they worry about speeding the game up so much.
-
I hate all of it but my least favorite part is a three game series in a single location.
-
Under this proposed playoff format:
2014: two 79-win teams tie for postseason spot
2015: two 83-win teams make postseason
2016: a 79-win team makes postseason
2017: three 80-win teams tie for postseason
2018: three 82-win teams tie for postseason
2019: an 84-win team makes postseason
https://twitter.com/craigcalcaterra/status/1227205636779364354?s=21 (https://twitter.com/craigcalcaterra/status/1227205636779364354?s=21)
-
Would teams make for money with 8 less games?
Less TV money, less concessions, less tickets, etc. Owners won't go for 154 games if it brings in less.
So the laws of supply and demand don't impact entertainment revenue? Baseball, basketball, and hockey have too much game inventory....doesn't make the individual games important or rare and it means teams are totally out of it with months to go.
I like the post season changes if you also couple it will a reduction in the regular season schedule to 120 games but played from April 1st to September 30th. That spreads the inventory out, saves wear and tear on the players, minimize the tv revenue erosion, etc.
Yes I get its radical but we live in a different era the game needs to adapt
-
Under this proposed playoff format:
2014: two 79-win teams tie for postseason spot
2015: two 83-win teams make postseason
2016: a 79-win team makes postseason
2017: three 80-win teams tie for postseason
2018: three 82-win teams tie for postseason
2019: an 84-win team makes postseason
https://twitter.com/craigcalcaterra/status/1227205636779364354?s=21 (https://twitter.com/craigcalcaterra/status/1227205636779364354?s=21)
Yikes. So if they go through with this, will they have to have a 1-game playoff every time there is a tie for the last postseason spot?
-
Yikes. So if they go through with this, will they have to have a 1-game playoff every time there is a tie for the last postseason spot?
If you wanted to get really crazy -- and I am not advocating this -- you could just throw all of the tied teams into the hopper when the two division winners and top wildcard team are deciding who they want to play. If nobody picks you as the first round opponent, you're out.
-
Rock, paper, scissors?
-
Hmmmm..... where have I seen this before?
1) An institution makes a major change that - although arguably in the best interests of all - strikes at the heart of tradition and sentiment. An uproar ensues. The institution refuses to back down.
2) A couple decades go by and yet still, many people still complain about the change, some refusing to even acknowledge it (even while still maintaining faith/loyalty in the institution itself).
3) The institution goes public with a proposal for a new, more radical change that - unlike the first change - makes no rational sense whatsoever, and is instantly and universally condemned.
4) Citing the fact that everyone is against the new proposal, the institution actually backs down this time and pulls the proposal.
5) The public breathes a sigh of relief and feels like nostalgia has won the day. Behind closed doors, the institution's leaders shake hands and exchange congratulations on successful execution of a charade that has finally galvanized support for the change they made decades prior.
Some call this tactic the "GOLD standard" ;D
If it doesn't work, maybe throw in a ballot initiative (that doesn't give the option of reversing the change from decades back) between #4 and #5 for good measure.
-
So the laws of supply and demand don't impact entertainment revenue? Baseball, basketball, and hockey have too much game inventory....doesn't make the individual games important or rare and it means teams are totally out of it with months to go.
I like the post season changes if you also couple it will a reduction in the regular season schedule to 120 games but played from April 1st to September 30th. That spreads the inventory out, saves wear and tear on the players, minimize the tv revenue erosion, etc.
Yes I get its radical but we live in a different era the game needs to adapt
NO!!! One of the best parts of the baseball season is the fact that there's a game every day, all summer long. A new box score to read every morning, a new game to watch or listen to every night. I don't want to go to an NBA-type schedule where you never know when the next game is. In baseball, the next game is always tomorrow. I love that.
-
NO!!! One of the best parts of the baseball season is the fact that there's a game every day, all summer long. A new box score to read every morning, a new game to watch or listen to every night. I don't want to go to an NBA-type schedule where you never know when the next game is. In baseball, the next game is always tomorrow. I love that.
And how. The “marathon” aspect of the season, with guys grinding every day, is what makes baseball so great. Few things are more satisfying than looking at the back of a player’s baseball card and seeing that he played in 150+ games for multiple years in a row. I’d be sad to see it drop even to 154, but 120? No way.
-
Sounds like they don't need to change anything.
-
And how. The “marathon” aspect of the season, with guys grinding every day, is what makes baseball so great. Few things are more satisfying than looking at the back of a player’s baseball card and seeing that he played in 150+ games for multiple years in a row. I’d be sad to see it drop even to 154, but 120? No way.
You’re not the guy baseball is trying to keep interested. Or get interested in the first place.
-
You’re not the guy baseball is trying to keep interested. Or get interested in the first place.
This is true, but I'm torn between two sides here - does baseball need to fundamentally change to keep people interested, or does it just need to do a better job marketing what it already has? It seems crappy that baseball is willing to fundamentally change the structure of its playoffs and season, but hasn't been willing to put guys like Ronald Acuna on huge ad buys. Imagine the playoff advertising push that featured the young, passionate players x10. If MLB was willing to shift marketing efforts toward the audience they think these major changes will attract, would those changes even be necessary?
-
You’re not the guy baseball is trying to keep interested. Or get interested in the first place.
And that’s true.
-
This is true, but I'm torn between two sides here - does baseball need to fundamentally change to keep people interested, or does it just need to do a better job marketing what it already has? It seems crappy that baseball is willing to fundamentally change the structure of its playoffs and season, but hasn't been willing to put guys like Ronald Acuna on huge ad buys. Imagine the playoff advertising push that featured the young, passionate players x10. If MLB was willing to shift marketing efforts toward the audience they think these major changes will attract, would those changes even be necessary?
I don’t think so. I think baseballs fundamental problem is that the season ends one month too late.
-
This is true, but I'm torn between two sides here - does baseball need to fundamentally change to keep people interested, or does it just need to do a better job marketing what it already has? It seems crappy that baseball is willing to fundamentally change the structure of its playoffs and season, but hasn't been willing to put guys like Ronald Acuna on huge ad buys. Imagine the playoff advertising push that featured the young, passionate players x10. If MLB was willing to shift marketing efforts toward the audience they think these major changes will attract, would those changes even be necessary?
MLB built its 2018 postseason marketing campaign (Rewrite the Rules) around guys like Acuna and then followed up with a similar campaign (Let the Kids Play) to launch the 2019 season.
-
MLB built its 2018 postseason marketing campaign (Rewrite the Rules) around guys like Acuna and then followed up with a similar campaign (Let the Kids Play) to launch the 2019 season.
MLB has a marketing campaign?????
They are light years behind the NFL and NBA in this regard. They are also led by an entirely incompetent, lying commissioner. That is why they come up with the "gimmick" of an expanded playoff.
When Trevor Bauer sounds like the good guy, we should all know that something is wrong. And I say that despite Bauer probably changing MLB and its direction more than any player alive.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/02/12/trevor-bauer-warpath-against-mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-stupid-decisions/
BOSTON (CBS) — It’s not often that an All-Star athlete sits down to record a video specifically to rip the commissioner of his sports league and send it out to the world. It’s also not often that an All-Star athlete like Trevor Bauer comes along.
Bauer has gained a notable reputation for being extraordinarily online over the past few years, often engaging in never-ending Twitter beefs and occasionally going too far. Multiple times he has become a human meme, like when he had to leave a playoff start due to excessive bleeding on his pitching hand from an injury suffered while tinkering with his drone, or when he stood behind the mound and chucked a baseball over the center field fence in frustration last summer.
Clearly, Bauer is a little different. It should come as no surprise that if any baseball player was going to sit in front of a white background specifically to rant against MLB commissioner Rob Manfred, it would be Bauer.
In a video for Momentum (a venture co-founded by Bauer), the pitcher used his popular tweet from Monday as a springboard to sit down and rail against Manfred for his failure to understand media, his failure to connect with the younger generation of potential fans, and much more.
Inspired by the leaked potential playoff changes, Bauer revved himself up by pointing out what he considered to be obvious flaws. Then the direction turned toward Manfred personally.
“I just am so beside myself with Rob Manfred and his ridiculous rule changes that he keeps proposing,” Bauer said. “We’re going to move the mound back two feet, we’re going to have a three-batter minimum, we’re gonna, oh, get the games under three hours because that’s what fans want. Fans don’t care if the games are two hours and 57 minutes or three hours.”
He added: “You should probably know something about media. You should probably understand what people are connecting with. Since those are the people that voted you in as commissioner, you should probably understand something about media.”
Bauer said unlike the NBA, which connects extremely well with younger fans via social media, MLB still lives in the dark ages in terms of allowing content to be posted and shared online.
“[Fans] can’t even go to Twitter, where all the young people hang out. You can’t even go to social media and see anything about the game,” Bauer said. “Steph Curry throws a bounce pass in an NBA game, and it’s trending with 1.5 million views five minutes later. And Mike Trout goes and launches himself and robs a homer or something, and you can’t find the highlight anywhere online. It’s ridiculous.”
Bauer took aim at MLB Advanced Media — or BAM — as being a short-sighted business venture where MLB remains in control of all online content.
“Great, you made a lot of money up front, but you centralized all this content and you made people pay for it, you know what you get? You get a missing generation of fans,” Bauer said. “You make some money up front, great. And you miss a generation of fans, and the game is losing popularity, especially among young people.”
Bauer also expressed frustration at the fact that many people in the Los Angeles area have been unable to watch Dodgers games for years, due to a cable deal.
“Rob, if you understood media, maybe as the commissioner of baseball, you could solve some of these things. Like how in one of your biggest markets, half the fans can’t even watch the damn game because of TV deals,” Bauer said. “How are we supposed to spread the game, how are we supposed to get people interested — young people, the missing generation of baseball fans — how are we supposed to get them interested in the game when they can’t even see the damn game?”
Bauer also said that MLB fails to allow players to express themselves, specifically noting the time MLB enforced what Bauer referred to as “a stupid cleat policy” against Mike Clevinger, who had the audacity to wear cleats with flowers on them during a game.
“I mean, what does it even matter?! Just let the players express themselves! Let them have some personality. You wanna market the game? Don’t change it. Don’t make the mound 62 feet. Don’t make playoffs where you have to pick your opponent and frickin whatever. Don’t change the game. Market the players,” Bauer urged. “You have more players in baseball than any other league, which much more diverse backgrounds worldwide, more so than any of the other major American sports. And it’s the least marketable. It’s because you make stupid decisions about how you market the players.”
Certainly, insisting that the commissioner does not understand the media industry while also plainly stating that the commissioner makes “stupid decisions” is sure to get Manfred’s attention. Nevertheless, Bauer pressed further.
“You don’t open it up. Let content go, get it out there. Quit with the stupid cleat policy, the stupid BAM policy, blackouts all over the place — and that’s just dealing with content that we already have available. Like, where’s the innovation in content? Where’s the next thing that’s going to draw fans in? Who’s innovating? Who’s creating something new? Who’s trying to identify with the young fans?” Bauer asked. “Instead we’re going to have a game, if the game is three hours and one minute, no good. But two hours and 59 [minutes] is good, and that’s going to make it more appealing. Move the mound back. Or three-batter minimum. Whatever else other stupid ideas are coming out. I don’t know.”
Just to drive the point home, Bauer closed his rant by sending one more message directly to Manfred.
“So, Rob, if you’re watching this video, — you probably won’t, because you don’t even have a pulse on the game that you’re commissioner of,” Bauer said. “But if you’re watching this video and you wanna talk about some stuff, you want some recommendations, hit me up. I’m sure you can get in contact with me. I’m sure you’ll probably be fining me or something like that. So that’s it. That’s all I got to say. Frickin … ”
Manfred is currently still trying to wrap up his investigation of the Red Sox. Meanwhile, as new reporting emerges about the Astros, his Houston investigation appears to have had some holes. He and the league have expressed a desire to implement and enforce new policies regarding the use of video during games, in an effort to curb players’ use of video to try to decode sign sequences during games. It’s a whole significant matter that’s seemingly taken priority for Manfred this offseason.
But now, Manfred has this to deal with. And if he knows anything about Bauer’s history, he should know that this won’t be a one-time thing. A philosophical battle with the sport’s most outspoken player is probably not something Manfred is eager add to his list of duties. But Bauer’s video was so direct, so blunt, and so personal that the commissioner will ultimately have no choice but to address it.
It’s almost as if … Bauer has proven … that social media can be used … to generate loads of attention … for a sport that desperately needs it. Interesting.
-
MLB built its 2018 postseason marketing campaign (Rewrite the Rules) around guys like Acuna and then followed up with a similar campaign (Let the Kids Play) to launch the 2019 season.
Exactly - I'd like to see this kind of marketing focus take hold for awhile before instituting major changes to the game to capture that audience. These panicked moves infer that there isn't anything for that audience to like about the current game, and I just don't think that's true. What if MLB put 1/100th as many resources in establishing footholds in American youth baseball, for example, as they do overseas? That's always seen as only a player development strategy, but it also serves to really boost the popularity of the game too.
-
Nobody hates baseball more than the people in charge of baseball
-
It’s almost as if … Bauer has proven … that social media can be used … to generate loads of attention … for a sport that desperately needs it. Interesting.
I mean, I get all that. But the issues with baseball are deeper than letting Mike Trout's great catch trend on Twitter.
-
I mean, I get all that. But the issues with baseball are deeper than letting Mike Trout's great catch trend on Twitter.
You're right up to a point. But sports is about generating excitement and MLB lags way behind. Social Media is even more important because of the fact that MLB doesn't have as many "exciting" plays as the NBA or NFL. They need to push excitement when they can, but can't do it because the upfront money they got was more important to billionaires than the future of the game.
As Rico said, "Nobody hates baseball more than the people in charge of baseball".
Furthermore, integrity matters - even to young people. And we can all see that Manfred is nothing more than a lying grifter. But. of course that goes back to Rico's point about the owners since Manfred works for them. He is simply an apt extension to Selig.
-
You're right up to a point. But sports is about generating excitement and MLB lags way behind. Social Media is even more important because of the fact that MLB doesn't have as many "exciting" plays as the NBA or NFL. They need to push excitement when they can, but can't do it because the upfront money they got was more important to billionaires than the future of the game.
As Rico said, "Nobody hates baseball more than the people in charge of baseball".
Furthermore, integrity matters - even to young people. And we can all see that Manfred is nothing more than a lying grifter. But. of course that goes back to Rico's point about the owners since Manfred works for them. He is simply an apt extension to Selig.
I don't agree with what Rico said. Social media strategy is a problem, but where Bauer is mistaken is that the biggest problem is that eyeballs stop watching when the game is supposed to matter the most - the post-season. This is the essential problem that baseball is trying to solve.
And that's where the national television money plays a part. And they want to make sure to keep generating that money by having more product (more games) and giving more people a reason to watch the games (because their team is involved.) It doesn't help that it has become a very localized product - which has been great for the wallets of some of these teams but not great for the development of the game.
-
Nobody hates baseball more than the people in charge of baseball
NFL and NBA are centralized in control. MLB is not which has hurt them for a long time..When I worked for the Angels we had to rally support from the Yankees, Dodgers, While small market teams were wildly suspicious to get things done.
With so much revenue coming from local RSN deals that do not go into a central bucket, it is often every team for themselves.
John Skipper spoke to us yesterday and had some interesting comments about the leagues and their ruling power. MLB’s setup is in trouble and not just because the game is boring to a generation that cannot sit still for 2 minutes. They have structural problems in revenue sharing and tv deals that leave them very vulnerable.
-
I don't agree with what Rico said. Social media strategy is a problem, but where Bauer is mistaken is that the biggest problem is that eyeballs stop watching when the game is supposed to matter the most - the post-season. This is the essential problem that baseball is trying to solve.
And that's where the national television money plays a part. And they want to make sure to keep generating that money by having more product (more games) and giving more people a reason to watch the games (because their team is involved.) It doesn't help that it has become a very localized product - which has been great for the wallets of some of these teams but not great for the development of the game.
As far as the regular season, baseball has long been a local sport. I have 162 games of my favorite team I can watch. I am not going to watch a random regular season game on ESPN. After all, how many freaking baseball games can I watch?
For the postseason. if I am an East Coast casual fan with no rooting interest, why am I going to watch a postseason weeknight game that ends at 1 in the morning, with two more coming later in the week? Personally, I watch most of the postseason and all of the World Series because I love baseball. But I have a limit of what I will put up with, though I haven't reached it yet. I have a lot of friends who love baseball but have stopped watching the postseason except when their team is involved just because the games end too late.
I like the idea of MLB trying to speed up the game, but their moronic ham-handed attempts are ridiculous. It is easy as pie. Just don't let the batters take a stroll between pitches. You don't want to step in the box, let the pitcher pitch without you in it. They used to call Mike Hargrove the human rain delay for the time he took to get ready between pitches. All nine guys do that now and a lot are worse.
Finally, when you're at the ballpark, the length of games don't bother me at all. But when I'm watching on from home I find myself thinking "Pitch the f'in ball already!" all the time.
-
As far as the regular season, baseball has long been a local sport. I have 162 games of my favorite team I can watch. I am not going to watch a random regular season game on ESPN. After all, how many freaking baseball games can I watch?
Back in the day you didn't watch 162 games though right? Growing up in Wisconsin, I probably got to see 50 or so Brewer games, almost all on the road. I watched the Saturday afternoon game, Monday night game, and stuff like This Week in Baseball. So I knew who the national players were.
I watch WAY more baseball now than I did back then. But they are 99% Brewer games. If Mookie Betts or Mike Trout walked into my office right now, I would have no idea who they were. I think that's the problem that Cheeks is referring to.
I watch other NFL games. Pretty much every weekend. I watch other NBA games. But mostly during the extended playoffs.
This is what MLB is trying to fix.
-
So the 3 batter rule is a go and no expanding the rosters in September.
-
I’ve been able to watch 150+ games for decades out here. Angels or Dodgers.
8 official rule changes for 2020
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2876002-mlb-announces-rule-changes-for-2020-season-including-3-batter-minimum-for-rps
-
Back in the day you didn't watch 162 games though right? Growing up in Wisconsin, I probably got to see 50 or so Brewer games, almost all on the road. I watched the Saturday afternoon game, Monday night game, and stuff like This Week in Baseball. So I knew who the national players were.
I watch WAY more baseball now than I did back then. But they are 99% Brewer games. If Mookie Betts or Mike Trout walked into my office right now, I would have no idea who they were. I think that's the problem that Cheeks is referring to.
I watch other NFL games. Pretty much every weekend. I watch other NBA games. But mostly during the extended playoffs.
This is what MLB is trying to fix.
Exactly, I had access to maybe 40 games a year. So I would watch the Game of the Week on Saturday and the Monday night game and TWIB if I didn't have anything else to do. You know an NBA game is going to take 2 1/2 hours, you know a football game is going to take a little over 3 hours. But baseball games, especially postseason games, take forever. And most of that time is spent waiting for someone to get in the box, which is horrible to watch. They have to fix it.
-
Exactly, I had access to maybe 40 games a year. So I would watch the Game of the Week on Saturday and the Monday night game and TWIB if I didn't have anything else to do. You know an NBA game is going to take 2 1/2 hours, you know a football game is going to take a little over 3 hours. But baseball games, especially postseason games, take forever. And most of that time is spent waiting for someone to get in the box, which is horrible to watch. They have to fix it.
Yep. I agree with that.
-
you know a football game is going to take a little over 3 hours. But baseball games, especially postseason games, take forever. And most of that time is spent waiting for someone to get in the box, which is horrible to watch. They have to fix it.
The average NFL game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes, (with 11 total minutes of game action). The average length of a MLB game was 3 hours and 5 min.
-
The average NFL game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes, (with 11 total minutes of game action). The average length of a MLB game was 3 hours and 5 min.
I assume that's 11 total minutes from snap (or kick) to the whistle?
What's the equivalent for baseball?
(And what's defines game action... does it start at every pitch, or only when the ball is put in play?)
-
I assume that's 11 total minutes from snap (or kick) to the whistle?
What's the equivalent for baseball?
(And what's defines game action... does it start at every pitch, or only when the ball is put in play?)
According to the WSJ, it's 11 minutes for a NFL Game, and 18 minutes of a MLB game. (I'm not sure what they use to determine "game action."
https://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=475
(https://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=475)
-
According to the WSJ, it's 11 minutes for a NFL Game, and 18 minutes of a MLB game. (I'm not sure what they use to determine "game action."
https://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=475
(https://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=475)
But football is all about the anticipation building between plays and the intensity of the play once it starts. The entire team is involved. Baseball is different in that way. The "action" can oftentimes involve very few people. This is why when people claim that soccer has 90 minutes of action, and a great deal of that action is a bunch of short passes that don't lead anywhere, that I think these kind of stats are bogus. And I like soccer!
Put it this way, pace of play is brought up repeatedly as a problem in baseball. The length of games has grown over the course of the last few decades which means it slower than its "natural" pace. Football games take basically the same time now as they did 40 years ago.
-
...and with all these changes the National League will still not have a DH!
-
...and with all these changes the National League will still not have a DH!
Thank God! I love the added strategy of pinch-hitting for a pitcher (or not), etc.
-
Thank God! I love the added strategy of pinch-hitting for a pitcher (or not), etc.
That used to be a thing. They just pinch hit now because pitchers don't go as deep anymore. I guess they may make the decision in the 4th or 5th inning now.
I like the DH because whatever additional strategy involved is more than offset by seeing a major league hitter hit instead of a pitcher.
-
But football is all about the anticipation building between plays and the intensity of the play once it starts. The entire team is involved. Baseball is different in that way. The "action" can oftentimes involve very few people. This is why when people claim that soccer has 90 minutes of action, and a great deal of that action is a bunch of short passes that don't lead anywhere, that I think these kind of stats are bogus. And I like soccer!
Put it this way, pace of play is brought up repeatedly as a problem in baseball. The length of games has grown over the course of the last few decades which means it slower than its "natural" pace. Football games take basically the same time now as they did 40 years ago.
I'm not so sure about the pace of baseball declining over the years... watch a video of an old-timey baseball game and Babe Ruth looks like he could outrun Willie Mays Hays.
Too bad there isn't a 1.5x button we could hit to help move things along. But then there wouldn't be enough time to bang on garbage cans.
-
That used to be a thing. They just pinch hit now because pitchers don't go as deep anymore. I guess they may make the decision in the 4th or 5th inning now.
I like the DH because whatever additional strategy involved is more than offset by seeing a major league hitter hit instead of a pitcher.
Yup. Strategy is this case is a bogus argument. The move to pinch hit for a pitch is pretty much cut and dried now.
I actually think having a DH requires more strategy by the manager and pitching coach. Pitching decisions are based on pitching rather than when the pitcher will be batting.
-
Wow. Bellinger really rips Houston today - clip is on ESPN. Calls them frauds and cheaters and that everyone around the league has zero respect for them. Really goes after Altuve.
After the apology fiasco, I don't think things are gonna get better. I also expect there will be more calls for some permanent bans as more and more comes out. A good starting point would be a lifetime ban for Carlos Beltran - a guy who was likely to be a HoF'er and who will certainly never make it now. That would be a punishment with enough meat on the bone to actually be a deterrent.
Cora, Hinch, and the guys from the front office should also be in line for lifetime bans. This is no less of a cheating scandal than the Black Sox and should be treated as such.
As a lifelong fan for whom baseball was my 1st love (I tell my wife she is, but I may be lying), this has soured me more than anything else ever has in sports.
Bregman has been my favorite player since he came into the league - a clone of Paul Molitor who was my fave when I was much younger. Now he is simply a dishonest cheat - a fraud.
-
I actually think having a DH requires more strategy by the manager and pitching coach. Pitching decisions are based on pitching rather than when the pitcher will be batting.
In other words, in the AL, pitching decisions are based on pitching. In the NL, pitching decisions are based on pitching and batting.
Seems like the AL has it pretty easy.
-
In other words, in the AL, pitching decisions are based on pitching. In the NL, pitching decisions are based on pitching and batting.
Seems like the AL has it pretty easy.
Sounds like a slam dunk argument - except the batting decisions are almost always either pitching or batting. Pinch hitting for a pitcher is almost always automatic - the main exception being when an Ace has pitched 6 or 7 IP and is due up. Few pitchers throw 200 IP anymore, so there is normally no question if the SP's spot to bat comes up in inning 6 or 7 that it will be a PH. Very little strategy involved.
-
According to the WSJ, it's 11 minutes for a NFL Game, and 18 minutes of a MLB game. (I'm not sure what they use to determine "game action."
https://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=475
(https://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=475)
Baseball Pace of Play - Big Head Mike Francesca used to bring this up often. Baseball games could easily be shortened significantly if they reduced the number of commercials between innings and pitching changes. TV & radio commercials are a large contributor to the game length but MLB would never do it because it would affect revenue.
-
Baseball Pace of Play - Big Head Mike Francesca used to bring this up often. Baseball games could easily be shortened significantly if they reduced the number of commercials between innings and pitching changes. TV & radio commercials are a large contributor to the game length but MLB would never do it because it would affect revenue.
This is correct. Lopping 30 seconds off between innings would save 8 - 8.5 minutes a game. Its not like the baseball announcers during the game aren't using at least a third of their words during the broadcast to promote some business or another. "And that's the 15th pitch of the ballgame. 15 minutes could save you 15% at Geico!" "Blah Blah Blah insurance company will donate $50 dollars for every strikeout by the home team pitchers this year. See your local blah blah blah insurance agent today!" That's in addition to straight commercial reads, before innings, between batters, etc. The utter disdain MLB and the players union has for their fans is infuriating. The Red Sox have to be the absolute worst in this regard.
-
I like the idea of the 3-batter rule and I will be interested to see how it affects strategy.
-
I like the idea of the 3-batter rule and I will be interested to see how it affects strategy.
I actually like that one too.
-
I like the idea of the 3-batter rule and I will be interested to see how it affects strategy.
I'm very much against the rule. Rest in Peace, LOOGY.
-
Wow. Bellinger really rips Houston today - clip is on ESPN. Calls them frauds and cheaters and that everyone around the league has zero respect for them. Really goes after Altuve.
After the apology fiasco, I don't think things are gonna get better. I also expect there will be more calls for some permanent bans as more and more comes out. A good starting point would be a lifetime ban for Carlos Beltran - a guy who was likely to be a HoF'er and who will certainly never make it now. That would be a punishment with enough meat on the bone to actually be a deterrent.
Cora, Hinch, and the guys from the front office should also be in line for lifetime bans. This is no less of a cheating scandal than the Black Sox and should be treated as such.
As a lifelong fan for whom baseball was my 1st love (I tell my wife she is, but I may be lying), this has soured me more than anything else ever has in sports.
Bregman has been my favorite player since he came into the league - a clone of Paul Molitor who was my fave when I was much younger. Now he is simply a dishonest cheat - a fraud.
Disagree that it is on par with what the Black Sox did.
End of the day, teams try to steal signs all the time and it is encouraged....Astro’s took it way way too far and deserve the punishment. Black Sox literally threw games...no comparison.
-
I like the idea of the 3-batter rule and I will be interested to see how it affects strategy.
I haven't made my mind up on it yet, but I'm certain my Yankees with their deep bullpen will benefit.
-
Baseball Pace of Play - Big Head Mike Francesca used to bring this up often. Baseball games could easily be shortened significantly if they reduced the number of commercials between innings and pitching changes. TV & radio commercials are a large contributor to the game length but MLB would never do it because it would affect revenue.
...but that is true for every sport except soccer (futbol) where there are no time outs.
-
Altuve and Bregman are probably on pace to be in the Hall of Fame.
Should they be allowed in when they are eligible if they have the stats to back it up?
-
Altuve and Bregman are probably on pace to be in the Hall of Fame.
Should they be allowed in when they are eligible if they have the stats to back it up?
Before their press day, I would’ve thought about it. Now probably not.
-
Altuve and Bregman are probably on pace to be in the Hall of Fame.
Should they be allowed in when they are eligible if they have the stats to back it up?
IMO, nope. Let's see how Altuve the shirt clutcher does without knowing what pitch is coming and the location.
-
New excuse floated by Altuve's teammate as to why he didn't want his short removed: A bad, unfinished tattoo. :-\
-
IMO, nope. Let's see how Altuve the shirt clutcher does without knowing what pitch is coming and the location.
Can’t we figure that out pretty easily with road games?
-
Altuve and Bregman are probably on pace to be in the Hall of Fame.
Should they be allowed in when they are eligible if they have the stats to back it up?
Obviously a lot depends on what happens going forward, but there are more than a few known cheaters in the Hall of Fame. Not sure why these guys should be treated any differently.
-
Obviously a lot depends on what happens going forward, but there are more than a few known cheaters in the Hall of Fame. Not sure why these guys should be treated any differently.
I asked because, as we know, the steroid guys have been kept out. The cheating that Altuve and Bregman did is, to me at least, much worse.
Personally, I have no problem with the steroid guys getting into the Hall - we certainly have a fair share of drunks and druggies there - but I am torn on these guys from the Astros.
-
I asked because, as we know, the steroid guys have been kept out. The cheating that Altuve and Bregman did is, to me at least, much worse.
Personally, I have no problem with the steroid guys getting into the Hall - we certainly have a fair share of drunks and druggies there - but I am torn on these guys from the Astros.
Why is it much worse, please explain.
Of what we know, they cheated in 2017 only and at SOME home games.
Steroid guys cheated multiple years, home and away.....all games. An unfair advantage over pitchers not juicing.
How is it much worse and I ask that based on volume alone? Can you provide rational reason why it is much worse? Or for that matter, why the Black Sox scandal is much less as you also stated.
-
I understand that players are rightfully frustrated by MLB's response on the cheating scandal, but the MLBPA really needs to batten down the hatches and concentrate their response. Or like, have a conference call or something. This is an opportunity for them to score some points big points on Manfred leading up to the next CBA negotiation, but there's some real galaxy brain takes being thrown out there by players right now.
Best example is Phil Hughes proposing a work stoppage to protest the light player punishments from MLB. So you want to violate the CBA, shortly before the negotiation of a new one, and strike becuase MLB didn't unilaterally punish MLBPA members harshly enough? Imagine if Manfred had suspended the heart of the Astros lineup for all of 2020 - it would have been in the players' interest to appeal that and flip out! Eyes on the prize, my guy.
-
I'm not sure what "points" on this issue are going to do for the MLBPA anyway. Until players are going to actually force a work stoppage on this or any other issue, the owers are going to "win" almost every negotiation. And they have more money to wait out the players anyway.
-
I asked because, as we know, the steroid guys have been kept out. The cheating that Altuve and Bregman did is, to me at least, much worse.
Personally, I have no problem with the steroid guys getting into the Hall - we certainly have a fair share of drunks and druggies there - but I am torn on these guys from the Astros.
I wouldn’t vote for for either the steroid guys or these Astro cheats, but I agree that the Astros are worse.
An analogy that I heard that I think fits:Imagine baseball as a poker game. What the steroid guys did was take a drug to boost their IQs 20 points. The Astros put mirrors behind their opponents to look at their hands. Pretty clear to me which is worse.
-
I wouldn’t vote for for either the steroid guys or these Astro cheats, but I agree that the Astros are worse.
An analogy that I heard that I think fits:Imagine baseball as a poker game. What the steroid guys did was take a drug to boost their IQs 20 points. The Astros put mirrors behind their opponents to look at their hands. Pretty clear to me which is worse.
Thanks, Lenny. That was a pretty good analogy.
In real life, here is the best way I can explain it. By the end of this week, Teams will start Live BP. This is done in two different ways so that pitchers and catchers can work on their timing. The first is when the batters know what pitches are coming; the second method simulates game conditions and batters don't know what is coming from the pitcher.
The big difference is that pitchers use the 'L' screen on the mound to hide behind when the batters know what is coming. There is no screen when they throw without hitters knowing the pitch.
I think it is pretty obvious to every real baseball fan how the Astros' hitters were helped by the sign stealing. When you have quiet, "don't rock the boat" guys like Bryant and Trout going after the Astros and Manfred - that speaks volumes.
To make things worse, Manfred says guys that throw at Astro hitters will be punished. Players who cheat will not be punished.
-
I wouldn’t vote for for either the steroid guys or these Astro cheats, but I agree that the Astros are worse.
An analogy that I heard that I think fits:Imagine baseball as a poker game. What the steroid guys did was take a drug to boost their IQs 20 points. The Astros put mirrors behind their opponents to look at their hands. Pretty clear to me which is worse.
LOL
Steroids guy did something that impacts 162 games and did it repeatedly year after year so * by 162.
Astros, from what we know, did something that impacted about 40 to 50 games for one season only.
HMM...which one has a bigger impact? LOL
-
LOL
Steroids guy did something that impacts 162 games and did it repeatedly year after year so * by 162.
Astros, from what we know, did something that impacted about 40 to 50 games for one season only.
HMM...which one has a bigger impact? LOL
On the other hand, every single player in the major leagues could have obtained steroids or other PEDs, and the only thing preventing a player from gaining that advantage was his willingness to use them. Their use was quite widespread across the entire league, so that no one team had exclusive advantage over any others.
The Astros' scheme benefited the Astros and the Astros only, was not available to other clubs or players, and occurred to the detriment of every other team and player.
Plus, I think a good case can be made that knowing what pitch is coming is significantly more advantageous to a batter than having bigger muscles.
There are arguments to be made on both sides, and Jockey's and Lenny's positions aren't at all unreasonable.
And the Astros did it for more than one season and more than 40-50 games. An Astros fan who reviewed 58 homes games from 2017 that were available on video found evidence of sign stealing in all but two of those games. There were another 23 games with no video available, but if they cheated at a similar rate as those other 58, you're looking at 70+ games of cheating in just one season.
-
LOL
Steroids guy did something that impacts 162 games and did it repeatedly year after year so * by 162.
Astros, from what we know, did something that impacted about 40 to 50 games for one season only.
HMM...which one has a bigger impact? LOL
According to the Journal, even though the banging scheme had ceased by the end of the 2017 regular season, the Astros continued using Codebreaker during the 2018 season, relaying signs more discreetly than by making loud thumping sounds. Houston also used Codebreaker to steal signs in away games, too, according to the Journal, which also reported that Luhnow received had received at least two emails documenting the scheme.
https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/08/astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-sign-stealing
-
On the other hand, every single player in the major leagues could have obtained steroids or other PEDs, and the only thing preventing a player from gaining that advantage was his willingness to use them. Their use was quite widespread across the entire league, so that no one team had exclusive advantage over any others.
The Astros' scheme benefited the Astros and the Astros only, was not available to other clubs or players, and occurred to the detriment of every other team and player.
Plus, I think a good case can be made that knowing what pitch is coming is significantly more advantageous to a batter than having bigger muscles.
There are arguments to be made on both sides, and Jockey's and Lenny's positions aren't at all unreasonable.
And the Astros did it for more than one season and more than 40-50 games. An Astros fan who reviewed 58 homes games from 2017 that were available on video found evidence of sign stealing in all but two of those games. There were another 23 games with no video available, but if they cheated at a similar rate as those other 58, you're looking at 70+ games of cheating in just one season.
Sure and other teams have been accused of stealing signs, including the Brewers, Red Sox, Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, and Nationals. Articles about each of them. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if every team wasn't doing it to some degree with the sole intention of helping their club.
When you are roided up, it's in your system for every at bat, every sprint to first base and beyond, etc, etc. The benefits are there. As some of these "analysis" have shown, often this scheme the Astros had didn't work at all or the signal got there too late....pitchers adjusted, etc. Yes, both sides can make the claims, but the sure number of games influenced by the roid takers is more than some home games only. Let's not forget that several Astros have been identified as not participating at all.
And as far as the preposterous claims that it is worse than what the Black Sox did....LOL. What a terrible take some have here on that one.
-
According to the Journal, even though the banging scheme had ceased by the end of the 2017 regular season, the Astros continued using Codebreaker during the 2018 season, relaying signs more discreetly than by making loud thumping sounds. Houston also used Codebreaker to steal signs in away games, too, according to the Journal, which also reported that Luhnow received had received at least two emails documenting the scheme.
https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/08/astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-sign-stealing
Exactly, why would they limit it to home games when you have the same centerfield shot of the catcher putting down the signs available in virtually every game, home OR away? With the app they developed they could almost instantly relay that to the batter.