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Author Topic: Bottom Line On Wojo  (Read 6581 times)

GooooMarquette

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2020, 05:11:09 PM »

I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.


Current or past, huh? Meet John Wooden, who won his first NCAA Tournament game in his 8th season at UCLA (and 10th overall).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden

But yes, I get your point. Wojo IMHO has done pretty much everything fairly well except win in the post season. Still, with his proven record of recruiting high-level talent, he just might hit the jackpot all of a sudden. I still believe the MU BOT's patience will pay off.


Silent Verbal

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2020, 05:21:36 PM »
Current or past, huh? Meet John Wooden, who won his first NCAA Tournament game in his 8th season at UCLA (and 10th overall).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden

But yes, I get your point. Wojo IMHO has done pretty much everything fairly well except win in the post season. Still, with his proven record of recruiting high-level talent, he just might hit the jackpot all of a sudden. I still believe the MU BOT's patience will pay off.

Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo.  I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF.  You gotta love it!

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2020, 05:36:04 PM »
Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo.  I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF.  You gotta love it!

Of all the tropes on scoop this has to be the weakest.

No one is comparing Wojos to Wooden, just their record at the same point in their careers.

You know what you're doing and so does everyone else Captain Obvious.

keefe

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2020, 05:38:14 PM »
Mediocre program. Check

Wille

Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!

I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.

The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.

We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.

Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era. 


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BLM

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2020, 06:04:06 PM »
Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo.  I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF.  You gotta love it!

Simple solution: If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.
Black Lives Matter

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2020, 06:15:08 PM »
Wille

Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!

I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.

The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.

We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.

Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.

There's a great article on the effect NCAA rules changes had on JUCO transfers in 2014. It just might be relevant when considering the drop off in ferocity and toughness you mentioned. Or maybe it's just a coincidence.

Cheeks

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2020, 07:01:37 PM »
Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games.  Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.

Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds.  We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year.  No reason to expect an early exit.  Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16.  But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.

As for the 2nd bolded paragraph.  Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.  This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.

Go back and watch the MU vs Missouri OT NCAA game in 2003 and some of the scoring that came from players of lesser quality than Sacar...and tell me they weren’t part of the difference.  Every bit counts, and in a game like that one it was critical.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2020, 07:04:00 PM »
Mediocre program. Check

An example of a 70+ man who has lost his marbles and slipped through the cracks to earn a MU education and is stuck in another century looking for unicorns.   Check
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2020, 07:06:15 PM »
Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo.  I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF.  You gotta love it!

And so a factual answer that you don’t like becomes snark.  Got it. 

A bunch of other names to add to that lost, but of course you will come out with the “he’s compared to XXXXXX”.

Beyond lame
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

tower912

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2020, 07:13:44 PM »
An example of a 70+ man who has lost his marbles and slipped through the cracks to earn a MU education and is stuck in another century looking for unicorns.   Check
Doesn't have a MU education.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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jesmu84

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2020, 07:21:55 PM »
Wille

Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!

I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.

The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.

We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.

Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.

Buzz's years were OUTSTANDING! And, as time has demonstrated, unsustainable - for a litany of reasons. Some even due to the coach himself.

Our program, since the 70s, has NOT been elite/blueblood. Just because we caught lightning in a bottle for a few consecutive seasons, that did not elevate us to the Duke/Kentucky/Nova/Gonzaga/etc of the world.

Overall, we have been a solid top 30+ program since Crean. Some +/- across seasons within that period. So far, I'd say, Wojo has continued that trend. (in a much tougher conference than the CUSA, but not as tough as the old BE)

GooooMarquette

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2020, 08:20:55 PM »
Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo.  I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF.  You gotta love it!


Read the question, and the answer I gave. Then look up the word “hyperbole.”

You’re welcome.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2020, 08:24:06 PM »
I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF.  You gotta love it!

Meet Eddie Hickey.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Hickey

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2020, 09:06:34 PM »
Wille

Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!

I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.

The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.

We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.

Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.

It is gonna surprise people, but I agree with almost all of this.

However, we were on the cusp of regaining lost glory when one player started a near mutiny. To make it worse, it was a lowly freshman (albeit highly recruited) who thought he was the schiznit. Had he behaved as you were taught in our stellar military, we would have a BIG EAST championship banner hanging from FF rafters. Unlike one of your commanding officers, who would’ve sent an insubordinate packing, Wojo’s hands were tied by helicopter parents and a loyal brother whom he needed to stay around.

I’m not sure anyone could’ve saved that locker room by season’s end. We still would’ve gotten our a$$ handed to us by Ja Morant, and this is where your last paragraph rings true. There was very little fight in that dog, and to me that’s the most surprising thing about Wojo’s tenure so far. However, other than the Creighton game this season, Wojo has these guys scrapping and fighting on every possession. I expect this to continue. It will have to this week if Marquette wants to escape Cintas with a W.
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

MU82

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2020, 09:30:15 PM »
Current or past, huh? Meet John Wooden, who won his first NCAA Tournament game in his 8th season at UCLA (and 10th overall).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden

But yes, I get your point. Wojo IMHO has done pretty much everything fairly well except win in the post season. Still, with his proven record of recruiting high-level talent, he just might hit the jackpot all of a sudden. I still believe the MU BOT's patience will pay off.

Thanks. Obviously things were a lot different then in terms of sheer numbers of NCAA teams, but that's certainly a good name. Might be another one or two from years gone by, too. But the general idea of my post stands

Doesn't have a MU education.

Correct. That's because Marquette doesn't offer a degree in either Joylessness or Kvetching.
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keefe

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2020, 09:48:06 PM »
Ja Morant

Names that will live in infamy:

Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA


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79Warrior

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2020, 12:20:20 AM »
Names that will live in infamy:

Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA

Jean-Felix played out of his mind that game in San Diego.

willie warrior

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2020, 04:38:33 AM »
Wille

Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!

I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.

The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.

We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.

Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
Shred. With resources, heritage, facilities, or should be elite. But according to some, we are trending in that direction. I guess the kool side has not gotten to me yet, because I dont see that trend yet with Wojo. Guess he needs 5 to 10 more years.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2020, 06:22:33 AM »
Names that will live in infamy:

Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA

I just got some bad flash backs.

4everwarriors

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2020, 08:12:20 AM »
Names that will live in infamy:

Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA



The difference, keefe, as you know, is in the past it did not matter. Teams with great players would still get their asses kicked by the Warriors. We've lost that lovin' feelin', aina?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2020, 08:54:42 AM »
Over the last couple of years, especially since Hausershima, Scoopers who have been mostly Projo have been asked by the Nojos something along the lines of: "What would it take to finally make you want to get rid of him?" I hadn't answered the question because I didn't see any need to speculate about such a thing when he generally was meeting my expectations.

However, while answering a different question in another thread today, I did end up stating my bottom line.

I thought the subject worthy of its own thread, so here goes, with some mild editing from what I had posted in that other thread ...

++ Get into the NCAA tournament this season, advance to the Sweet 16 or beyond, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will upgrade to full-on Projo.

++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain "leaning Projo," which is where I think I have been for awhile now (though I did waver in the wake of Hausershima because I was worried about how it would affect recruiting).

++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance - or fail to reach the tourney entirely - and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode (or "leaning Nojo," for folks who prefer that term). For the first time, he will officially be "on the clock" for me.

++ Fail to reach the tourney this season and 2020-21, regardless of the inevitable "too young" excuse for next season, and I'll join those shouting for him to go. (Caveat: If there is some ridiculous injury wave that would prevent any coach from winning, I could cut him some slack. Unlikely to happen.)

Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March. But to NEVER win in March ... that suggests something more than simply bad luck. Each of his four predecessors, guys of varying degrees of coaching/recruiting ability, managed to do it.

I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.

It's time for Wojo to deliver.

Results in this year’s and next year’s tournament won’t mean much to me. Markus could go off and win us a couple or flame out and get us knocked out early. Next year just getting there will be difficult.

Here’s my assessment: 80+% of a coach’s success at the college level is predicated on recruiting. If this year’s recruiting class (assuming Mane joins it) becomes the norm Wojo will be more than OK with me - he won’t be on a level with the elite recruiters who can also actually coach in game, but he’ll be ahead of everyone else.

Wojo won’t ever be one of those “he can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his” coaches. He’s slow to adjust, is over the top deferential to his stars (creating locker room issues) and panics at crunch time. You don’t think it’s a big deal that he didn’t know the score of a tie game with 20 seconds left. I think it’s huge. I’ve watched probably 5,000 games in my life and never seen a coach that flummoxed. Players, yes - though extremely rarely - but never a coach. Some coaches stay cool. Some get confused. That’s Wojo. He’ll need great players to produce very good results. Here’s hoping.


Cheeks

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2020, 09:16:45 AM »


The difference, keefe, as you know, is in the past it did not matter. Teams with great players would still get their asses kicked by the Warriors. We've lost that lovin' feelin', aina?

We got our ass kicked in the NCAAs even under Al at times.  Kentucky, IU, etc.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

skianth16

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2020, 09:55:04 AM »
Results in this year’s and next year’s tournament won’t mean much to me. Markus could go off and win us a couple or flame out and get us knocked out early. Next year just getting there will be difficult.

Here’s my assessment: 80+% of a coach’s success at the college level is predicated on recruiting. If this year’s recruiting class (assuming Mane joins it) becomes the norm Wojo will be more than OK with me - he won’t be on a level with the elite recruiters who can also actually coach in game, but he’ll be ahead of everyone else.

Wojo won’t ever be one of those “he can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his” coaches. He’s slow to adjust, is over the top deferential to his stars (creating locker room issues) and panics at crunch time. You don’t think it’s a big deal that he didn’t know the score of a tie game with 20 seconds left. I think it’s huge. I’ve watched probably 5,000 games in my life and never seen a coach that flummoxed. Players, yes - though extremely rarely - but never a coach. Some coaches stay cool. Some get confused. That’s Wojo. He’ll need great players to produce very good results. Here’s hoping.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this logic, although it does seem to be common the world of college hoops. If recruiting was really the only difference maker, you wouldn't see guys like Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Steph Curry, Ja Morant, etc. racking up 25 wins, winning conference championships, or getting teams into the second weekend in March (or playing in the NBA).

Saying recruiting is the most important thing in the game assumes coaches have limited impact on player development and the gameplans don't matter much in terms of wins and losses. Sure, there are maybe 10-15 guys in each class that can be game changers for a team, but the vast, vast majority of guys playing D1 basketball come into school needing a lot of work to get better and compete at the college level. And most players do develop over the course of 4 years, but the extent to which they get better varies pretty widely. That variance has a ton to do with the coaches they're working with.

And all the hours going into scouting, gameplanning, offensive/defensive adjustments definitely matter. There's a reason why a guy like Brad Stephen was able to take Butler to the national championship game, and it wasn't his blue chip recruits. And look at Jim Boeheim - his legacy in basketball isn't Carmelo, it's his 2-3 zone.

At the end of the day, a team full of 5 stars will probably beat a team of 3 stars. But since most teams are a blend of 3 and 4 stars, the way those guys are coached carries a lot more weight than just 20%.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2020, 10:03:39 AM »
We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.

The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).

Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success

Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.

The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.

onepostdavis

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2020, 10:08:33 AM »
Wille

Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!

I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.

The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.

We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.

Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.

Agree with all of this

 

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