MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on January 28, 2020, 12:48:50 PM
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Over the last couple of years, especially since Hausershima, Scoopers who have been mostly Projo have been asked by the Nojos something along the lines of: "What would it take to finally make you want to get rid of him?" I hadn't answered the question because I didn't see any need to speculate about such a thing when he generally was meeting my expectations.
However, while answering a different question in another thread today, I did end up stating my bottom line.
I thought the subject worthy of its own thread, so here goes, with some mild editing from what I had posted in that other thread ...
++ Get into the NCAA tournament this season, advance to the Sweet 16 or beyond, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will upgrade to full-on Projo.
++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain "leaning Projo," which is where I think I have been for awhile now (though I did waver in the wake of Hausershima because I was worried about how it would affect recruiting).
++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance - or fail to reach the tourney entirely - and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode (or "leaning Nojo," for folks who prefer that term). For the first time, he will officially be "on the clock" for me.
++ Fail to reach the tourney this season and 2020-21, regardless of the inevitable "too young" excuse for next season, and I'll join those shouting for him to go. (Caveat: If there is some ridiculous injury wave that would prevent any coach from winning, I could cut him some slack. Unlikely to happen.)
Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March. But to NEVER win in March ... that suggests something more than simply bad luck. Each of his four predecessors, guys of varying degrees of coaching/recruiting ability, managed to do it.
I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.
It's time for Wojo to deliver.
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I approve this message and it reflects my thoughts and opinions very well. My Dad, being just a little more nojo than myself, and I had this conversation over the weekend.
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If MU makes the S16, I feel Wojo would be one of the hotter names on the carrousel this year. It’d be a lot more than MU fans who would be full on Projo at that point.
Winning one game in the tournament is actually pretty irrelevant without considering our seed, in my opinion. Can anyone name the 32 teams who made it last year? Basically, I’d feel much differently winning a 4-13 game than an 8-9. Brings me to my last point.
I just want the team to have a successful season 4/5 years and be comfortably in the tournament with a top 6 or so seed in 3 of those years. Earning a good seed is much more important to me than winning a game in the tournament. Tournament wins will come with having good years and earning high seeds.
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Here's the thing that keeps coming up when people say what Wojo "needs" to do. He "needs" to compete in the Big East, (somewhat goes hand in hand) "needs" to be comfortably in the field/be a top 6ish seed most years, and "needs" to win Tourney games. The only part of that left for Wojo to do, which is what Tower was talking about, was win Tournament games.
Yes, I'm going to "cherrypick" stats here. Sure, it would've been nice to move the timeline up by 2 years with some JUCO additions, etc. but that's not how Wojo appears to operate. If Marquette does wind up in the Tournament this year (which it's trending towards), that's 3 Tournament appearances in the last 4 seasons. He will have been a 5 seed, a 7 seed, and who knows what this year will bring but probably a 6-8 seed. He also finished 3rd in the Big East 3 years ago, 2nd in the Big East last year, and is currently one game back of 2nd in the Big East right now. In my opinion, top 3 in the Big East is "competing" in the Big East.
In my opinion what Wojo needs is to keep his roster together better. Having more guys like Sacar who stick it out and wind up being productive players as upper classmen is the difference between a 6-8 seed and possible 1 and done in the Tournament and being a 3-6 seed and having much easier matchups, plus players who have "been there" and won't get rattled when the lights come on in Tourney time.
Obviously losing guys like the Hausers set the program back. But I don't expect that to be a common theme going forward. What I think Wojo has struggled to do is keep guys like Sandy, Traci, etc. around who might not be the stars of the program, but could be the Sacars of the program.
Wojo's really not that far off, and he's got a top 10 recruiting class with a good chance to add a star piece on top of it.
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I said when he was hired that only knowing the Duke way was a concern and that his success was contingent upon growing beyond his Duke roots.
I have said multiple times that he reminds me of Crean without Wade. Paint by numbers
I have not yet seen him make a team more than the sum of its parts.
He has continued to attract talent.
He has developed 3 stars.
I think he can coach. I think he is getting better. I don't think he is great. I think he is nowhere near his coaching ceiling.
I think he will win 20 games a year as long as he is at Marquette.
I think he is more likely to leave than get fired.
I think he will take teams deep in the tournament. I don't know of it will be at Marquette.
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I find the whole topic confounding.
There is too much criticism in a year where a 14-6 record is actually very good considering there are several very good teams doing worse.
Looking at our losses using the current bracketology we have lost to:
a 2 seed on the road
a 4 seed on the road
a 4 seed on a neutral site
a 6 seed on the road
a 6 seed on the road
That is five losses that, while no one should be happy with, it should not result in people calling for Wojo's head.
The other loss was to Providence in overtime, which is the only loss to a team not currently projected to be in the NCAA tournament. However, Providence is not a bad team by any stretch.
We all want MU to be more successful than it has, but at this time we are not a disaster that should lead to a coach being fired.
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Yep.
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I find the whole topic confounding.
There is too much criticism in a year where a 14-6 record is actually very good considering there are several very good teams doing worse.
Looking at our losses using the current bracketology we have lost to:
a 2 seed on the road
a 4 seed on the road
a 4 seed on a neutral site
a 6 seed on the road
a 6 seed on the road
That is five losses that, while no one should be happy with, it should not result in people calling for Wojo's head.
The other loss was to Providence in overtime, which is the only loss to a team not currently projected to be in the NCAA tournament. However, Providence is not a bad team by any stretch.
We all want MU to be more successful than it has, but at this time we are not a disaster that should lead to a coach being fired.
No the coach isn't going to be fired. Zero doubt about that.
But the way some of these losses went down is worrisome.
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Some things would really have to go right for MU to make the sweet 16 this year. Things like Greg coming back 100% and Symir finally "getting it" on defense, as well as Markus making it to the post season unscathed, which, barring Greg and Symir suddenly contributing more, isn't very likely.
The most likely scenario is a repeat of last year, considering Marquette will probably be a much lower seed than last year.
That leaves me right where I've been all along, hoping MU lands Mane and that this recruiting class is as good as advertised. If both of those things pan out, Marquette should make some noise in the conference and in the tournament next year, and Wojo will be safe.
If he fails with the incoming talent next year, including Mane, ( barring a wave of injuries ), a search for a replacement should begin in earnest.
Markus leaving next year should not be an excuse. There are more consistent ways to win than what Marquette has been doing the last two years.
Coming from Duke Wojo should already know how to handle the roster next year. With Markus gone I don't anticipate another Hauser situation, so Wojo should have no excuse for not getting the new players to work together from the start. Youth should not be an excuse either.
For Wojo "next year" is more than just a tired refrain. It will very likely determine his future.
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Some things would really have to go right for MU to make the sweet 16 this year. Things like Greg coming back 100% and Symir finally "getting it" on defense, as well as Markus making it to the post season unscathed, which, barring Greg and Symir suddenly contributing more, isn't very likely.
The most likely scenario is a repeat of last year, considering Marquette will probably be a much lower seed than last year.
That leaves me right where I've been all along, hoping MU lands Mane and that this recruiting class is as good as advertised. If both of those things pan out, Marquette should make some noise in the conference and in the tournament next year, and Wojo will be safe.
If he fails with the incoming talent next year, including Mane, ( barring a wave of injuries ), a search for a replacement should begin in earnest.
Markus leaving next year should not be an excuse. There are more consistent ways to win than what Marquette has been doing the last two years.
Coming from Duke Wojo should already know how to handle the roster next year. With Markus gone I don't anticipate another Hauser situation, so Wojo should have no excuse for not getting the new players to work together from the start. Youth should not be an excuse either.
For Wojo "next year" is more than just a tired refrain. It will very likely determine his future.
Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games. Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.
Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds. We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year. No reason to expect an early exit. Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16. But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.
As for the 2nd bolded paragraph. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.
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Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games. Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.
Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds. We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year. No reason to expect an early exit. Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16. But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.
As for the 2nd bolded paragraph. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.
They could definitely be the difference in winning a tournament game if they combine for 25 minutes and 10 points vs. 4 minutes and 0 points. But largely I agree. If we win a tournament game or two it will be because of Markus, Sacar and Brendan.
Disagree on the last paragraph. MU's recruiting classes the past few years are nowhere near the class we're bringing in next year.
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Some things would really have to go right for MU to make the sweet 16 this year. Things like Greg coming back 100% and Symir finally "getting it" on defense, as well as Markus making it to the post season unscathed, which, barring Greg and Symir suddenly contributing more, isn't very likely.
The most likely scenario is a repeat of last year, considering Marquette will probably be a much lower seed than last year.
Ahhh, the old lowering expectations trick. A Chicos oldie, but a goodie.
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Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games. Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.
Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds. We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year. No reason to expect an early exit. Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16. But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.
As for the 2nd bolded paragraph. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.
I love how you read what people post and seem to purposefully miss the point every time.
Marquette was short on competent guards last season and Markus got worn down. Marquette is short on competent guards this season and I believe the results will be the same. I never suggested that Greg or Symir would carry the team, only that they would give Markus(and Koby) a breather here and there.
As for your second comment, it is so off point that I'm questioning if you even read the words you are responding to, or if you just reflexively type your pre-prepared talking points that fit your agenda.
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I love how you read what people post and seem to purposefully miss the point every time.
Marquette was short on competent guards last season and Markus got worn down. Marquette is short on competent guards this season and I believe the results will be the same. I never suggested that Greg or Symir would carry the team, only that they would give Markus(and Koby) a breather here and there.
I'll play along... Who's responsibility is it to ensure adequate depth at the guard position?
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(http://66.media.tumblr.com/fe19cab34ea72069318856a9a3d663a9/tumblr_ozna6tmuPq1vg1enro1_400.gifv)
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Ahhh, the old lowering expectations trick. A Chicos oldie, but a goodie.
How clueless can you be??
If I was a big Wojo supporter who believed he was the greatest coach ever, wouldn't I be trying to rationalize how Marquette makes the sweet sixteen instead of how it's more likely that they don't?? How is my prediction that Marquette loses in the first round an endorsement of Wojo?? Your comment about lowering expectations is just an attempt to distract from the point I was making. Nice try.
Sometimes people are just making predictions based on current observations and historical precedents. Just because your thoughts and opinions are colored by your obvious biases, doesn't mean everybody's mind works that way.
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I'll play along... Who's responsibility is it to ensure adequate depth at the guard position?
Finally an intelligent question.
It was partially Wojos fault and I criticized him in other posts for the Chartouny whiff. Although in fairness to Wojo, he wasn't allowed to pay some of the guards he had targeted before settling on Chartouny.
Greg being injury prone is nobody's fault.
Symir is just young but I have hopes that he will emerge before the end of this season.
Fair question though.
As I noted in another thread, next year guard depth should not be an issue.
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I find the whole topic confounding.
There is too much criticism in a year where a 14-6 record is actually very good considering there are several very good teams doing worse.
Looking at our losses using the current bracketology we have lost to:
a 2 seed on the road
a 4 seed on the road
a 4 seed on a neutral site
a 6 seed on the road
a 6 seed on the road
That is five losses that, while no one should be happy with, it should not result in people calling for Wojo's head.
The other loss was to Providence in overtime, which is the only loss to a team not currently projected to be in the NCAA tournament. However, Providence is not a bad team by any stretch.
We all want MU to be more successful than it has, but at this time we are not a disaster that should lead to a coach being fired.
Not sure what about my OP is "confounding."
And "disaster" and "fired" are your words.
I'd like to see Wojo steer his program to the next level, that's all.
And the only implied "or else" is that I'll be unhappy if it doesn't happen.
We Are Marquette!
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How clueless can you be??
If I was a big Wojo supporter who believed he was the greatest coach ever, wouldn't I be trying to rationalize how Marquette makes the sweet sixteen instead of how it's more likely that they don't?? How is my prediction that Marquette loses in the first round an endorsement of Wojo?? Your comment about lowering expectations is just an attempt to distract from the point I was making. Nice try.
Sometimes people are just making predictions based on current observations and historical precedents. Just because your thoughts and opinions are colored by your obvious biases, doesn't mean everybody's mind works that way.
Well it's not that hard to figure out. Sounds like you are pissed that I called u out on it. You are lowering expectations by making excuses so if it happens you can say, not wojo fault. If he succeeds you can say what a great job he did.
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Well it's not that hard to figure out. Sounds like you are pissed that I called u out on it. You are lowering expectations by making excuses so if it happens you can say, not wojo fault. If he succeeds you can say what a great job he did.
Maybe in your twisted mind, and using your twisted logic that makes sense.
Consider how similar your comments are to a conspiracy theorists.
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Competitive team. Upper half of Big East, competing with best teams (Nova, Etc). Check
Post Season appearances. Check
Solid to excellent recruiting. Check
Clean program, no issues. Check
Players graduating. Check
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I said when he was hired that only knowing the Duke way was a concern and that his success was contingent upon growing beyond his Duke roots.
I have said multiple times that he reminds me of Crean without Wade. Paint by numbers
I have not yet seen him make a team more than the sum of its parts.
He has continued to attract talent.
He has developed 3 stars.
I think he can coach. I think he is getting better. I don't think he is great. I think he is nowhere near his coaching ceiling.
I think he will win 20 games a year as long as he is at Marquette.
I think he is more likely to leave than get fired.
I think he will take teams deep in the tournament. I don't know of it will be at Marquette.
I normally agree with your rational, eloquent posts. Here I’m a bit confused. You have yet to see him make a team more than the sum of their parts, but you believe he is not near his ceiling, and he will take teams deep in the NCAAs. And you don’t know if it will be at MU. So, with an incoming Top5 or Top10 (sans Mane) class, do you feel high level success is imminent? Where else but DUKE would Wojo pull in a top5 recruiting haul and suddenly start creating that team alchemy necessary to become a “great” coach?
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I normally agree with your rational, eloquent posts. Here I’m a bit confused. You have yet to see him make a team more than the sum of their parts, but you believe he is not near his ceiling, and he will take teams deep in the NCAAs. And you don’t know if it will be at MU. So, with an incoming Top5 or Top10 (sans Mane) class, do you feel high level success is imminent? Where else but DUKE would Wojo pull in a top5 recruiting haul and suddenly start creating that team alchemy necessary to become a “great” coach?
I actually agree with everything tower wrote. He has room to grow as a coach and is just hitting his prime. Hopefully he has learned from his successes and failures and is ready to apply that knowledge to the rest of this season and into the next. I think this is what they call his window of opportunity to show what he's capable of.
I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Not sure what about my OP is "confounding."
And "disaster" and "fired" are your words.
I'd like to see Wojo steer his program to the next level, that's all.
And the only implied "or else" is that I'll be unhappy if it doesn't happen.
We Are Marquette!
It can’t be stated enough:
Wojo had his team on the precipice of “NEXT LEVEL” stuff, until a whining baby fomented discord and jealousy. It cost Marquette an outright BigEast championship.
Sadly, it cost us Sam and a shot at glory this year.
It is becoming SOP in college basketball, with every entitled kid thinking they are the next great thing and a lock for the NBA.
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Competitive team. Upper half of Big East, competing with best teams (Nova, Etc). Check
Post Season appearances. Check
Solid to excellent recruiting. Check
Clean program, no issues. Check
Players graduating. Check
Mediocre program. Check
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I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.
Current or past, huh? Meet John Wooden, who won his first NCAA Tournament game in his 8th season at UCLA (and 10th overall).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden
But yes, I get your point. Wojo IMHO has done pretty much everything fairly well except win in the post season. Still, with his proven record of recruiting high-level talent, he just might hit the jackpot all of a sudden. I still believe the MU BOT's patience will pay off.
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Current or past, huh? Meet John Wooden, who won his first NCAA Tournament game in his 8th season at UCLA (and 10th overall).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden
But yes, I get your point. Wojo IMHO has done pretty much everything fairly well except win in the post season. Still, with his proven record of recruiting high-level talent, he just might hit the jackpot all of a sudden. I still believe the MU BOT's patience will pay off.
Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo. I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF. You gotta love it!
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Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo. I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF. You gotta love it!
Of all the tropes on scoop this has to be the weakest.
No one is comparing Wojos to Wooden, just their record at the same point in their careers.
You know what you're doing and so does everyone else Captain Obvious.
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Mediocre program. Check
Wille
Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!
I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.
The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.
We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.
Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
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Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo. I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF. You gotta love it!
Simple solution: If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.
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Wille
Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!
I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.
The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.
We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.
Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
There's a great article on the effect NCAA rules changes had on JUCO transfers in 2014. It just might be relevant when considering the drop off in ferocity and toughness you mentioned. Or maybe it's just a coincidence.
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Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games. Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.
Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds. We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year. No reason to expect an early exit. Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16. But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.
As for the 2nd bolded paragraph. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.
Go back and watch the MU vs Missouri OT NCAA game in 2003 and some of the scoring that came from players of lesser quality than Sacar...and tell me they weren’t part of the difference. Every bit counts, and in a game like that one it was critical.
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Mediocre program. Check
An example of a 70+ man who has lost his marbles and slipped through the cracks to earn a MU education and is stuck in another century looking for unicorns. Check
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Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo. I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF. You gotta love it!
And so a factual answer that you don’t like becomes snark. Got it.
A bunch of other names to add to that lost, but of course you will come out with the “he’s compared to XXXXXX”.
Beyond lame
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An example of a 70+ man who has lost his marbles and slipped through the cracks to earn a MU education and is stuck in another century looking for unicorns. Check
Doesn't have a MU education.
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Wille
Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!
I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.
The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.
We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.
Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
Buzz's years were OUTSTANDING! And, as time has demonstrated, unsustainable - for a litany of reasons. Some even due to the coach himself.
Our program, since the 70s, has NOT been elite/blueblood. Just because we caught lightning in a bottle for a few consecutive seasons, that did not elevate us to the Duke/Kentucky/Nova/Gonzaga/etc of the world.
Overall, we have been a solid top 30+ program since Crean. Some +/- across seasons within that period. So far, I'd say, Wojo has continued that trend. (in a much tougher conference than the CUSA, but not as tough as the old BE)
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Coach K, Jay Wright, Rick Majerus, Dean Smith, Jim Valvano, and now John Wooden, all at one time or another mentioned in the same breath as Wojo. I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF. You gotta love it!
Read the question, and the answer I gave. Then look up the word “hyperbole.”
You’re welcome.
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I’m telling ya, Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll be compared to every coach in the HOF. You gotta love it!
Meet Eddie Hickey.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Hickey
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Wille
Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!
I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.
The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.
We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.
Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
It is gonna surprise people, but I agree with almost all of this.
However, we were on the cusp of regaining lost glory when one player started a near mutiny. To make it worse, it was a lowly freshman (albeit highly recruited) who thought he was the schiznit. Had he behaved as you were taught in our stellar military, we would have a BIG EAST championship banner hanging from FF rafters. Unlike one of your commanding officers, who would’ve sent an insubordinate packing, Wojo’s hands were tied by helicopter parents and a loyal brother whom he needed to stay around.
I’m not sure anyone could’ve saved that locker room by season’s end. We still would’ve gotten our a$$ handed to us by Ja Morant, and this is where your last paragraph rings true. There was very little fight in that dog, and to me that’s the most surprising thing about Wojo’s tenure so far. However, other than the Creighton game this season, Wojo has these guys scrapping and fighting on every possession. I expect this to continue. It will have to this week if Marquette wants to escape Cintas with a W.
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Current or past, huh? Meet John Wooden, who won his first NCAA Tournament game in his 8th season at UCLA (and 10th overall).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden
But yes, I get your point. Wojo IMHO has done pretty much everything fairly well except win in the post season. Still, with his proven record of recruiting high-level talent, he just might hit the jackpot all of a sudden. I still believe the MU BOT's patience will pay off.
Thanks. Obviously things were a lot different then in terms of sheer numbers of NCAA teams, but that's certainly a good name. Might be another one or two from years gone by, too. But the general idea of my post stands
Doesn't have a MU education.
Correct. That's because Marquette doesn't offer a degree in either Joylessness or Kvetching.
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Ja Morant
Names that will live in infamy:
Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA
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Names that will live in infamy:
Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA
Jean-Felix played out of his mind that game in San Diego.
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Wille
Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!
I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.
The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.
We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.
Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
Shred. With resources, heritage, facilities, or should be elite. But according to some, we are trending in that direction. I guess the kool side has not gotten to me yet, because I dont see that trend yet with Wojo. Guess he needs 5 to 10 more years.
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Names that will live in infamy:
Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA
I just got some bad flash backs.
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Names that will live in infamy:
Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA
The difference, keefe, as you know, is in the past it did not matter. Teams with great players would still get their asses kicked by the Warriors. We've lost that lovin' feelin', aina?
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Over the last couple of years, especially since Hausershima, Scoopers who have been mostly Projo have been asked by the Nojos something along the lines of: "What would it take to finally make you want to get rid of him?" I hadn't answered the question because I didn't see any need to speculate about such a thing when he generally was meeting my expectations.
However, while answering a different question in another thread today, I did end up stating my bottom line.
I thought the subject worthy of its own thread, so here goes, with some mild editing from what I had posted in that other thread ...
++ Get into the NCAA tournament this season, advance to the Sweet 16 or beyond, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will upgrade to full-on Projo.
++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain "leaning Projo," which is where I think I have been for awhile now (though I did waver in the wake of Hausershima because I was worried about how it would affect recruiting).
++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance - or fail to reach the tourney entirely - and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode (or "leaning Nojo," for folks who prefer that term). For the first time, he will officially be "on the clock" for me.
++ Fail to reach the tourney this season and 2020-21, regardless of the inevitable "too young" excuse for next season, and I'll join those shouting for him to go. (Caveat: If there is some ridiculous injury wave that would prevent any coach from winning, I could cut him some slack. Unlikely to happen.)
Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March. But to NEVER win in March ... that suggests something more than simply bad luck. Each of his four predecessors, guys of varying degrees of coaching/recruiting ability, managed to do it.
I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.
It's time for Wojo to deliver.
Results in this year’s and next year’s tournament won’t mean much to me. Markus could go off and win us a couple or flame out and get us knocked out early. Next year just getting there will be difficult.
Here’s my assessment: 80+% of a coach’s success at the college level is predicated on recruiting. If this year’s recruiting class (assuming Mane joins it) becomes the norm Wojo will be more than OK with me - he won’t be on a level with the elite recruiters who can also actually coach in game, but he’ll be ahead of everyone else.
Wojo won’t ever be one of those “he can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his” coaches. He’s slow to adjust, is over the top deferential to his stars (creating locker room issues) and panics at crunch time. You don’t think it’s a big deal that he didn’t know the score of a tie game with 20 seconds left. I think it’s huge. I’ve watched probably 5,000 games in my life and never seen a coach that flummoxed. Players, yes - though extremely rarely - but never a coach. Some coaches stay cool. Some get confused. That’s Wojo. He’ll need great players to produce very good results. Here’s hoping.
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The difference, keefe, as you know, is in the past it did not matter. Teams with great players would still get their asses kicked by the Warriors. We've lost that lovin' feelin', aina?
We got our ass kicked in the NCAAs even under Al at times. Kentucky, IU, etc.
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Results in this year’s and next year’s tournament won’t mean much to me. Markus could go off and win us a couple or flame out and get us knocked out early. Next year just getting there will be difficult.
Here’s my assessment: 80+% of a coach’s success at the college level is predicated on recruiting. If this year’s recruiting class (assuming Mane joins it) becomes the norm Wojo will be more than OK with me - he won’t be on a level with the elite recruiters who can also actually coach in game, but he’ll be ahead of everyone else.
Wojo won’t ever be one of those “he can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his” coaches. He’s slow to adjust, is over the top deferential to his stars (creating locker room issues) and panics at crunch time. You don’t think it’s a big deal that he didn’t know the score of a tie game with 20 seconds left. I think it’s huge. I’ve watched probably 5,000 games in my life and never seen a coach that flummoxed. Players, yes - though extremely rarely - but never a coach. Some coaches stay cool. Some get confused. That’s Wojo. He’ll need great players to produce very good results. Here’s hoping.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this logic, although it does seem to be common the world of college hoops. If recruiting was really the only difference maker, you wouldn't see guys like Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Steph Curry, Ja Morant, etc. racking up 25 wins, winning conference championships, or getting teams into the second weekend in March (or playing in the NBA).
Saying recruiting is the most important thing in the game assumes coaches have limited impact on player development and the gameplans don't matter much in terms of wins and losses. Sure, there are maybe 10-15 guys in each class that can be game changers for a team, but the vast, vast majority of guys playing D1 basketball come into school needing a lot of work to get better and compete at the college level. And most players do develop over the course of 4 years, but the extent to which they get better varies pretty widely. That variance has a ton to do with the coaches they're working with.
And all the hours going into scouting, gameplanning, offensive/defensive adjustments definitely matter. There's a reason why a guy like Brad Stephen was able to take Butler to the national championship game, and it wasn't his blue chip recruits. And look at Jim Boeheim - his legacy in basketball isn't Carmelo, it's his 2-3 zone.
At the end of the day, a team full of 5 stars will probably beat a team of 3 stars. But since most teams are a blend of 3 and 4 stars, the way those guys are coached carries a lot more weight than just 20%.
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We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.
The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).
Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success
Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.
The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.
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Wille
Gotta love me some Mazos Burger!
I don't see MU as a mediocre program. It is superlative in terms of heritage, facilities, investment, institutional support, and fan enthusiasm.
The issue is that results under Wojo have been disappointing, to say the least.
We are a middle of conference program which has gone from consistent Sweet 16 (or better) appearances to a complete lack of post season results.
Marquette played tough and displayed a ferocity on the court which characterized the Marquette brand. We were the envy of many programs. That is no longer the case. Losing that hard edge is, perhaps, the most disturbing aspect of the Wojo era.
Agree with all of this
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The difference, keefe, as you know, is in the past it did not matter. Teams with great players would still get their asses kicked by the Warriors. We've lost that lovin' feelin', aina?
David Thompson, Rick Mount, Quin Buckner, etc.
There'll always be a player that haunts our dreams from every era just as there will always be those that we beat (Dunn, Walker, Brunson, Etc)
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We got our ass kicked in the NCAAs even under Al at times. Kentucky, IU, etc.
Really? The IU game you cite, and clearly did not see, was a 1 point game at halftime. I think we lost by nine. I guess that is an ass kicking in your book.
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We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.
The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).
Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success
Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.
The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.
So true.
Pillarz and LW are (thankfully) gone but the people who hired them aren’t. So their “legacy” lives on. Too bad.
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We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.
The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).
Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success
Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.
The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.
Outstanding, interesting, relevant post. It's why I like give props to Al, KO, Crean and Buzz, and I don't say things like, "Well, Crean would have been nothing without Wade" or "Buzz relied so much on Jucos" or "Al brought in all kinds of questionable 'student'-athletes." Each coach used the rules that he was under at the time, and each had success doing so. Wojo also has had a degree of success using the rules he is expected to follow; hopefully, he will be more successful going forward.
I also like the discussion between skianth and Lenny. I'm guessing the middle ground is probably where something closest to the "truth" lies: Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program, but a program will only go so far if the recruiting is not accompanied by excellent coaching.
I do disagree with one line Lenny said in response to my post:
You don’t think it’s a big deal that he didn’t know the score of a tie game with 20 seconds left. I think it’s huge.
I actually have said on more than one occasion in more than one thread that it was a big mistake. Those were my exact words. However, I don't believe Wojo is or should be defined by that one mistake or that it somehow "proves" he never will be a good college coach. He might never be a good college coach, but it won't be because he made that mistake in that situation in that game IMHO.
Though I believe it was the most obvious big mistake in that game, I don't even think it was the biggest big mistake. Letting Baldwin easily get to the spot he wanted to get to over and over and over and over again ... THAT, in my opinion, is what lost us the game. I am far more concerned about that than a brain fart of a mistake (albeit a big brain fart) that I would bet will never, ever happen again on his watch.
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Dr. B
I have been preaching that since Buzz's second last year. I believe your post to be 100% on target. MU brass made a decision and created internal expectations that have likely been met. Only problem to me is, they never told the fans that expectations changed. To be fair, goals/hopes probably did not change, they just got nearly impossible to hit.
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So true.
Pillarz and LW are (thankfully) gone but the people who hired them aren’t. So their “legacy” lives on. Too bad.
Only four of the trustees around when SP and LW were hired are still on the Board. There are 24 outside trustees, most of which have been appointed during the Lovell administration.
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Only four of the trustees around when SP and LW were hired are still on the Board. There are 24 outside trustees, most of which have been appointed during the Lovell administration.
In that case I stand corrected. Maybe there’s hope after all.
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Names that will live in infamy:
Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA
All names that make me shudder. The difference, however, between Pavia and the rest is that the others were (justifiably) committed to beating MU, while Pavia was supposed to be impartial.
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In that case I stand corrected. Maybe there’s hope after all.
If they're anything like Lovell, I wouldn't get your hopes up.
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Really? The IU game you cite, and clearly did not see, was a 1 point game at halftime. I think we lost by nine. I guess that is an ass kicking in your book.
Furthermore, that IU team went undefeated and is heralded among the greatest college teams of all-time.
May, Buckner, Benson, Wilkerson, and Abernathy were a 32-0 juggernaut that went into the Dance as the consensus #1 with Marquette as the #2.
Marquette played them tough but ran out of gas at the end.
Al said that this was the real National Championship game and he was probably right in saying so.
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Only four of the trustees around when SP and LW were hired are still on the Board. There are 24 outside trustees, most of which have been appointed during the Lovell administration.
Hopefully the Zizzo Group is still there to provide deep marketing insight for the next century...
Marquette Gold
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If they're anything like Lovell, I wouldn't get your hopes up.
This whole narrative is asinine. You don’t get a top5 haul/cache of Garcia, Lewis, Oso, and probably Mane by being severely hamstringed. And if the recruiting firm of Johnson, Wojciechowski, and Killings indeed secured this stellar crop of young athletes and minds (last I checked their academic bonafides are super) while operating under strict academic qualifications guidelines? Seems like massive raises are in order. Wow, DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. Imagine that.
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An example of a 70+ man who has lost his marbles and slipped through the cracks to earn a MU education and is stuck in another century looking for unicorns. Check
Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.
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We played a great IU team and far from an ass whoppin'. That was a great game against two powerhouse teams.
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Doesn't have a MU education.
And of course, according to you that is the only credible education to have. All others are not really educations.
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Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.
Good for you, willie. I would never knock someone for where they went to school, and I don’t think Tower would either...he was just pointing out a fact. Congrats on becoming a septuagenarian. I will be lucky to make it 60. Thank You for following our beloved Warrior Eagles.
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And of course, according to you that is the only credible education to have. All others are not really educations.
Nope. Just correcting a wrong assumption.
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This whole narrative is asinine. You don’t get a top5 haul/cache of Garcia, Lewis, Oso, and probably Mane by being severely hamstringed. And if the recruiting firm of Johnson, Wojciechowski, and Killings indeed secured this stellar crop of young athletes and minds (last I checked their academic bonafides are super) while operating under strict academic qualifications guidelines? Seems like massive raises are in order. Wow, DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. Imagine that.
Yeah there is nothing wrong with the talent being brought in. It's mostly how that talent is being coached that concerns me.
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Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.
Then you would think that those of us about twenty years younger than you, who have followed MU twenty years longer than you, would have more of a right to be outraged by the current state of the MU BB program.
I'm not angry about it at all.
I wonder why that is.
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Jordan Sperber's podcast is great, but he had Fran Fraschilla on last month? to talk a bunch of coaching points. He talked about how hard coach is now, with all of the strategy involved with offensive and defensive schemes. I don't think Wojo is a great coach now, but he may be in 5 years. Any young coach in his same situation is going to make mistakes (maybe not as bad as not knowing the score). I put that on the administration who have continually hired assistants as head coaches. When you make the decision, you essentially are also telling yourself there will also be some growing up to do.
Some things have changed for the better. He's way less demonstrative on the sidelines (remember when he broke that clipboard in Orlando is first year?). The defense has changed. 2 years ago, Heldt was hedging every ball screen 40 feet from the basket. Last year, they were Iceing every high ball screen. This year he has tried to switch more and keep Theo close to the basket. Offensively, he runs a lot of nice plays, the boomerang screens for Markus on the baseline, or the empty Horns sets for Sacar late in the game.
Two things that stand out negative are the Hauser injury situation and the over reliance on Markus. We can debate the "dumb and dangerous" take, but watching KD go down in the Finals last year, it probably would have been SH's best interests to not play in the NIT. He's coached a little bit like a lame duck GM who trades away prospects/ draft picks to win now and hampers the future. I think he believes Markus is the key to any type of success and has taken the hand brake off, much like Crean did with Diener his junior and senior years.
I always come back to the "Ferentz conundrum." Iowa football is consistently good, sometimes great, and rarely bad. Do you take those results year after year? Or do you risk trying to go a different route and starting over with the hope that you might be as good as you were under the last guy?
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We got our ass kicked in the NCAAs even under Al at times. Kentucky, IU, etc.
Not by lower seeded teams, mid-majors, or in the first game, hey?
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This whole narrative is asinine. You don’t get a top5 haul/cache of Garcia, Lewis, Oso, and probably Mane by being severely hamstringed. And if the recruiting firm of Johnson, Wojciechowski, and Killings indeed secured this stellar crop of young athletes and minds (last I checked their academic bonafides are super) while operating under strict academic qualifications guidelines? Seems like massive raises are in order. Wow, DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. Imagine that.
I agree that landing this recruiting class, especially with the fog of Hausershima hanging over his head, was a big accomplishment for Wojo. I disagree that simply signing the recruits is worthy of a raise, certainly not a massiveon. Let's wait until we see that Wojo is able to actually win with these guys before hanging the banners and signing the checks.
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Then you would think that those of us about twenty years younger than you, who have followed MU twenty years longer than you, would have more of a right to be outraged by the current state of the MU BB program.
You've been an MU fan since '33 or '34? Impressive.
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Not by lower seeded teams, mid-majors, or in the first game, hey?
In the tournament, not under Al (Raymonds did, Majerus never got there)....got drilled a few times, but by good teams. In non NCAA, people seem to forget some bad losses in the regular season to Detroit Mercy, Cincinnati, Wichita State, etc. Yes, Al had his clunkers, too, and with a much better team than we have now. So yes, we are going to lose some games now, moreso than in the past, and at times by big margins. 1970's is long gone.
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You've been an MU fan since '33 or '34? Impressive.
I thought he meant age 53 or 54. The @ before the numbers threw me off.
My bad.
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Really? The IU game you cite, and clearly did not see, was a 1 point game at halftime. I think we lost by nine. I guess that is an ass kicking in your book.
Close at halftime doesn't count...see MU vs South Carolina a few years ago and ask about 20 posters. We scored 21 points in the second half against IU that game....IU was the best team in college which I realize.
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We played a great IU team and far from an ass whoppin'. That was a great game against two powerhouse teams.
Goose,
Mrs. Lenny and I drove from Houston to Baton Rouge for that game. Probably Al’s 2nd best team (after the 70-71 Warriors), but IU’s top 6 guy were NBA players, Knight was at the top of his game and we went cold in the second half. Tough loss.
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We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.
The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).
Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success
Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.
The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.
This post tipped the scale for me.
You have supplanted Guns n Ammo as my favorite poster.
Well done.
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This post tipped the scale for me.
You have supplanted Guns n Ammo as my favorite poster.
Well done.
It's a decent take, but NCAA rules governing JUCO transfers also changed in 2014, becoming much more onerous and affected JUCO transfers nationwide, not just at Marquette.
Oddly, under these conditions, a guy like Wojo seems the most likely to succeed when recruiting in a climate of strict academic compliance. Next years class is a small sample size but it does suggest this may be true.
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Goose,
Mrs. Lenny and I drove from Houston to Baton Rouge for that game. Probably Al’s 2nd best team (after the 70-71 Warriors), but IU’s top 6 guy were NBA players, Knight was at the top of his game and we went cold in the second half. Tough loss.
Eye wuz der two, Lenny Man, hey?
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And of course, according to you that is the only credible education to have. All others are not really educations.
Willie
I genuinely appreciate guys like you, ATWiz, Wags who grew up as MU fans and remain passionate despite other allegiances.
Marquette basketball is a special thing. There is more than enough room on the bandwagon.
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Lenny,
I agree that was Al's second best team. Unfortunately IU was a better team. I would love to see another heavyweight battle like that again in my lifetime. While very disappointed after that loss, it was one of my all time favorite MU games.
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Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.
Willie you have a great history of following the program. Would love to hear about your thoughts on some of the better players and teams in the Pre Al era .
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I thought he meant age 53 or 54. The @ before the numbers threw me off.
My bad.
Actually, you may be right.
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Willie you have a great history of following the program. Would love to hear about your thoughts on some of the better players and teams in the Pre Al era .
Pre Al Era: Don Kojis one of the best ever at MU. 6' 5" and at one time was MUs career rebound leader. Walt Mangham, a great rebounder. Dick Nixon, best dribbler MU has ever had. He and Sam Worthen (later) were truly ball wizards. As I recall Russ Wittberger was a pretty good ball player. MU has had great ones through all eras.
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All names that make me shudder. The difference, however, between Pavia and the rest is that the others were (justifiably) committed to beating MU, while Pavia was supposed to be impartial.
Another infamy nominee: Kelly Tripucka. And the all time punk Diefendorker
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Goose,
Mrs. Lenny and I drove from Houston to Baton Rouge for that game. Probably Al’s 2nd best team (after the 70-71 Warriors), but IU’s top 6 guy were NBA players, Knight was at the top of his game and we went cold in the second half. Tough loss.
Al did have some stud teams. The 74 team was NCAA runner up if I remember. That IU team that went undefeated was a dream team. Thought the 69-70 team that won the NIT was damn good, but did not follow them because of attending to small things in Vietnam. Al could sure bring in Quality BB players, and had some great teams and players.
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Willie
You know your stuff and thanks for sharing on here. I hope you see the program that we dream about.
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Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.
Generally speaking I don't have anything against 70 year olds....but do against turds in general who offer nothing, but negatives all the time. People want to push back on coaching, or players, or whatever...fine....but I cannot think of a time where you ever have anything positive to say. And I do mean ever, which I don't like using because it is such a lazy word. Life cannot be this miserable for you and a few others...can it? At your wise age, can it really be this miserable? It reminds me of a buddy of mine who is a Packers fan and in the 90's his dad would complain nonstop about how much they were throwing the ball...he wanted 3 yards and cloud of dust, the Lombardi sweep, etc. Constantly. It was never good enough.
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We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.
The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).
Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success
Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.
The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.
It's sad that some people believe that is the only way to win, when there are plenty of programs winning with those same restrictions. Aim high. Why settle? It is done elsewhere, it can be done here. Shortcuts seem to be the rage for some....no patience of any kind.
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We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.
The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).
Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success
The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.
Dr. B, I like you, but I can't agree with this take. To my knowledge, there is exactly 1 player from the Buzz years who Wojo couldn't have recruited for academic reasons. There is maybe 1 more that would have taken a lot of convincing due to academics (and he wasn't a JUCO).
This myth that we can't win basketball games because elite basketball players either have conduct issues or bad grades is not true and is frankly a problematic narrative. The real reason for the lack of JUCOs in men's basketball (I'm not as well versed in other sports so I can't speak for them) is that the talent pool in the JUCO ranks is extremely shallow. I have done the research and there are usually between 5-10 JUCOs a year who end up starting for high major programs. Buzz was extremely well connected in those ranks and spoiled us for a couple of years which gave us an inflated sense of the talent there. But the reality is with over 350 schools offering full scholarships to play at the D1 level, there is plenty of room for players to go straight to a 4-year institution, they don't need to go to JUCOs to get better offers anymore. They can play at St. Francis, Loyola (MD), or Florida A&M for a year or two and if they are good enough for a high major they can transfer up. There is the rare recruit such as St. John's LJ Figueroa who decides to go JUCO after a year at the D1 level to avoid the required redshirt year but there simply isn't a lot of elite talent in JUCO ranks anymore. Despite this, Wojo has recruited a JUCO for almost every class. He didn't land any of them, but to my knowledge, the only one of them who ended up being a high major level starter was Darral Willis Jr (who ended up at Wichita State), so the issue seemed to be they weren't good enough, not that Marquette blocked them.
To illustrate my point, here are all of the players recruited from JUCOs on the rosters of the 30 teams currently ranked above us on KenPom. There are 14 total or less than .5 per team. Of those 14 only 3 are starters (Seton Hall's Romaro Gill, Oregon's Chris Duarte, and Arkansas' Mason Jones). In addition to those 3, 2 play starter level minutes but come off the bench (Baylor's Devonte Bandoo and Illinois' Andres Feliz). Only 2 of the 30 teams have more than 1 on the roster and all 4 of those players come off the bench for 13 minutes or less. If the JUCO ranks were this haven of elite talent, wouldn't there be more of them starting on the top teams in the country?
Kansas: None
Duke: None
Gonzaga: None
Baylor: Devonte Bandoo (24.4 mpg)
Dayton: Jhery Matos (9.3 mpg)
West Virginia: Tajzmel Sherman (11.5 mpg), Sean McNeil (13.6 mpg)
Michigan State: None
San Diego State: Trey Pulliam (17.6 mpg)
Maryland: None
Louisville: None
Seton Hall: Romaro Gill (23.1 mpg)
Ohio State: None
Arizona: None
Iowa: None
Butler: None
Villanova: None
Oregon: Chris Duarte (29.6 mpg)
Florida State: RayQuan Evans (9.5 mpg), Nathanael Jack (6.3 mpg)
BYU: None
Colorado: Maddox Daniels (13.6 mpg)
Illinois: Andres Feliz (25.3 mpg)
Penn State: None
Houston: Chris Harris Jr (17.6 mpg)
Purdue: None
Kentucky: None
Rutgers: Shazville Carter (11.5 mpg)
Michigan: None
Arkansas: Mason Jones (32.9 mpg)
Creighton: None
Texas Tech: None
In addition to the 14 players listed, there were two former JUCOs who grad transferred to their current institutions from other D1 programs. I didn't include them because they graduated from another 4 year institution and wouldn't have been impacted by the so called academic restrictions. In fact, we recruited one of them but ended up with Jayce instead.
It's sad that some people believe that is the only way to win, when there are plenty of programs winning with those same restrictions. Aim high. Why settle? It is done elsewhere, it can be done here. Shortcuts seem to be the rage for some....no patience of any kind.
To be clear, Cheekz holier than thou take is equally bad. Buzz wasn't successful because he was able to recruit whoever he wanted. He won because he knew how to identify talent and put pieces together to make a winning basketball team every year but his last. The reason Wojo hasn't been as successfully isn't because he has limits on his recruiting, its because at this point in his career he's not as good of a coach as Buzz was.
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Eye wuz der two, Lenny Man, hey?
Wish I would have known you then, Doc. I needed a fellow fanatic to drown my sorrows with (Mrs. Lenny was and is awesome but was much more balanced about Warrior defeats than I was then - I’m better now - less testosterone and much more frequent losses will do that).
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TAMU
Watching the game and limited time to reply. But, there is a hole in your theory, IMO. Top programs have far less need to fill gaps with Juco’s. I would not take Juco’s if we were top ten recruiting every year, but that is not the case. Programs like MU benefit by taking Juco’s, especially in years that missing one piece. Just my take.
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Close at halftime doesn't count...see MU vs South Carolina a few years ago and ask about 20 posters. We scored 21 points in the second half against IU that game....IU was the best team in college which I realize.
IU was the last undefeated team. They were unbelievable. Sorry, South Carolina is hardly an appropriate comparison . We played IU in the second round, two of the greatest coaches in the game. 32 teams made the tourney. Today it's 60 plus teams and Wojo can't win one. Hopefully he will soon.
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Reassessed every game.
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Like Wojo or not, if u cant tip ur hat to Wojo n the team after that win on the road w/o Markus then u are a complete loser and simply a hater. Coach K and John Wooden lose that game down 6-8 late with no Markus 99 out of 100
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Is this a joke? I’m thrilled to get the W. Thrilled. But Wojo was terrible. Literally, no reason for Sacar to hit that second free throw at the end of double OT and his decisions on fouling were so, so poor. Koby and Sacar took the team on their backs, which was amazing to witness. Wojo can improve and I’m not Nojo, but he didn’t do himself any favors in my book tonight.
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Is this a joke? I’m thrilled to get the W. Thrilled. But Wojo was terrible. Literally, no reason for Sacar to hit that second free throw at the end of double OT and his decisions on fouling were so, so poor. Koby and Sacar took the team on their backs, which was amazing to witness. Wojo can improve and I’m not Nojo, but he didn’t do himself any favors in my book tonight.
He both told the players to foul and the refs they were going to foul. What else should he do since he can’t go Woody Hayes and do it himself?
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Is this a joke? I’m thrilled to get the W. Thrilled. But Wojo was terrible. Literally, no reason for Sacar to hit that second free throw at the end of double OT and his decisions on fouling were so, so poor. Koby and Sacar took the team on their backs, which was amazing to witness. Wojo can improve and I’m not Nojo, but he didn’t do himself any favors in my book tonight.
50 minutes of clock time and you pick out a 2-3 things you objected to and rip the coach. Some people are so filled with hatred, they can never come back.
Enjoy the rest of the season and cheering for losses, because that will get rid of our coach.
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50 minutes of clock time and you pick out a 2-3 things you objected to and rip the coach. Some people are so filled with hatred, they can never come back.
Enjoy the rest of the season and cheering for losses, because that will get rid of our coach.
No way, man, like I said, thrilled we won - still am and will be all day tomorrow - but why can’t we question the process? I would argue that a coach has 2-3 opportunities to really impact the game one way or another. At any rate, let’s celebrate while knowing there’s still plenty of room for growth for Wojo.
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I think it's very possible to be happy with a win and to notice that this team has pulled out some gritty wins this season while also noticing that we end up in unfavorable positions that seem pretty avoidable. Score more than 14 points in the first 18.5 minutes of the second half tonight, and we win in regulation. Practice fouling when up 3 late in the game and you can avoid the scenario we saw tonight. (I do think Wojo called for it, but have the guys practice how to do it to guarantee a call)
I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a pretty scrappy team but is not a very disciplined team. Heart wins out a lot of times, but high basketball IQ can make a big difference as well.
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Agree on the made free throw. Not sure why he did that. If they win on a last second shot so be it.
Can't agree on the foul. He told them to foul. Symir did a piss poor job of it. He then again tried to foul up 4 in 2OT and cain grabs the guy and they don't call it.
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He both told the players to foul and the refs they were going to foul. What else should he do since he can’t go Woody Hayes and do it himself?
This is where I can be schooled - is it the right call to foul up 4 with - what was it -
10 seconds left.? I have my doubts, but very much receptive to arguments in favor of it. I would think up 2 possessions with that little time, the last thing you would want to do is foul. But again, guttural instinct at 11:00 pm here.
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Why do you foul up 4? Even the "leaning Projo" in me disagrees with that.
On the FTs ... if Sacar makes the first, you make the second to go up 3. Then, worst-case scenario, if they hit a miracle shot, it's only tied. Once Sacar missed the first, however, there is no benefit to making the second, because a 3-point heave (which is the likely shot) beats you whether you're up 1 or 2. So yes, you miss on purpose there so they can't try the kind of long pass they did. Thank goodness, Jones was too flustered to take the open 18-footer he had.
Otherwise, I am thrilled with the level of play Wojo was able to coax from the guys. That was one of our most amazing wins in years given all the adversity our team faced.
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Why do you foul up 4? Even the "leaning Projo" in me disagrees with that.
On the FTs ... if Sacar makes the first, you make the second to go up 3. Then, worst-case scenario, if they hit a miracle shot, it's only tied. Once Sacar missed the first, however, there is no benefit to making the second, because a 3-point heave (which is the likely shot) beats you whether you're up 1 or 2. So yes, you miss on purpose there so they can't try the kind of long pass they did. Thank goodness, Jones was too flustered to take the open 18-footer he had.
Otherwise, I am thrilled with the level of play Wojo was able to coax from the guys. That was one of our most amazing wins in years given all the adversity our team faced.
The only counter arguments that I can think of to making the free throw are:
1. A miss that goes out of bounds or an airball. Now a full court pass and a 2 pointer wins it.
2. A miss and a foul on the rebound gives X a shot to win. You can pull your rebounders away from the ball but then X can either get a clean look or let it go OB.
I think you miss it , just playing devil's advocate.
My favorite opposing strategy for that moment is when a coach for the defensive team will purposefully commit lane violations until they make the free throw.
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Otherwise, I am thrilled with the level of play Wojo was able to coax from the guys. That was one of our most amazing wins in years given all the adversity our team faced.
+1
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No way, man, like I said, thrilled we won - still am and will be all day tomorrow - but why can’t we question the process? I would argue that a coach has 2-3 opportunities to really impact the game one way or another. At any rate, let’s celebrate while knowing there’s still plenty of room for growth for Wojo.
STFU! U must be a complete loser at life too
Career second guesser and makes assumptions with out knowing half the facts.
What was it that Mark Twain used to say?
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STFU! U must be a complete loser at life too
Career second guesser and makes assumptions with out knowing half the facts.
What was it that Mark Twain used to say?
I believe Twain's exact quote was, "Mr. Sand-Knit and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."