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Author Topic: Kobe Bryant  (Read 8061 times)

WarriorFan

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2020, 07:18:07 PM »
Not Fair.  Too soon.

I thought the post playing version of Kobe might be even better than the playing version.
"The meaning of life isn't gnashing our bicuspids over what comes after death but tasting the tiny moments that come before it."

JWags85

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2020, 07:23:25 PM »
Not Fair.  Too soon.

I thought the post playing version of Kobe might be even better than the playing version.

I agree here. He was still prolific in business with BodyArmor and film work and other endeavors, but he seemed to soften as a person and become more human. I mentioned to a friend earlier today that there are a number of people, even prior to today, that weren’t great fans of him during his career who changed their tone after interacting with post-NBA Kobe. That Kobe/Shaq feud was legendary and Shaq’s son posted a message this morning from Kobe reaching out unprompted just prior to the crash to check on him, they were family

rocket surgeon

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2020, 08:12:15 PM »
don't...don't don't don't don't

Cheeks

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2020, 10:02:57 PM »
So sad all Around

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28570865/orange-coast-college-baseball-coach-john-altobelli-helicopter-crash-victims

RIP all those involved

He was a stud coach in these parts.  2019 Junior College national coach of the year as well. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

rocket surgeon

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2020, 10:19:59 PM »
Just watched news conference. Had views of crash site from above.  Probably from a helicopter. That’s gotta make ya gulp twice 😳
don't...don't don't don't don't

withoutbias

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2020, 08:27:05 AM »
I know I will get blasted for this, and in some ways rightfully so, but it's kind of weird trying to process this one.  I feel awful for his wife and his kids, who are now without a father and a sister/husband and daughter at very young ages, and that's horrible and heartbreaking in every way.  I feel awful for all the people he was close to and for the basketball community, as he was obviously a very large figure in the basketball community and was an all time great, no doubt about it.

But who I also feel sorry for is the woman he raped, who now has to hear about how this world lost a great human being for the next number of weeks, plus for all the "Who we lost this year" at the end of 2020.  I squirm a little bit every time I see some basketball fan on social media posting about the great person this world lost.  While he seemed to have matured and certainly seems to be a great family man since he retired from basketball, it's tough for me to feel comfortable considering him this great human being when I never met him and when his lawyer released a statement from him that stated Kobe performed the definition of a rape ("I thought it was consensual at the time, but after reviewing all the facts in this case I now understand how she did not consider it consensual").

That's not to say he "deserved" this or that the world is a "better place" without him.  Not at all.  I just hate seeing these people who have never met the guy calling him a great person.  No doubt he was a great basketball player and it's very weird that he is no longer on this earth, but it's just hard for me to give the guy a pass because he had enough money to settle his case outside of court and act like it never happened.  Sure, he was "young" and he seemed to have "learned" from his "mistakes."  But thankfully most people's "mistakes" when they are "young" are not raping a woman (or man).

I don't know, just a weird one for me.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2020, 08:33:50 AM »
Marquette's own Charles Pierce wrote an article that addresses your mixed feelings.  I thought it was very good.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a30668419/kobe-bryant-dead-at-41-obituary/?src=socialflowTW&utm_campaign=socialflowTWESQ&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social-media

"There was no way to work that night in the Colorado hotel into the biography that unspooled thereafter and came to such a sudden end on Sunday. In Massachusetts, for decades, political writers wrestled with where to place Chappaquiddick into the saga of Ted Kennedy, and too many of them gave up and erased the event and Mary Jo Kopechne. But it is 2020 now, and Jeffrey Epstein is dead and Harvey Weinstein is in a New York courtroom, and erasing a female victim is no longer a viable moral and ethical strategy. Kobe Bryant died on Sunday with one of the young women in his life, and how you will come to measure his life has to be judged by how deeply you believe that he corrected his grievous fault through the life he lived afterwards, and how deeply you believe that he corrected that fault, immediately and beautifully, and in midair."
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Cheeks

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2020, 09:08:07 AM »
“Too many of them gave up”...what a load from Chuck....they never tried to begin with...on purpose.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2020, 09:10:56 AM »
Roberto Clemente
Payne Stewart
Davey Allison
Thurman Munson
Roy Halladay
Corey Lidle
Marshall football team



"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2020, 10:00:40 AM »
“Too many of them gave up”...what a load from Chuck....they never tried to begin with...on purpose.


This is funny.

I almost deleted the part about Kennedy because Pierce always "goes there."  But I left it in because I wanted to see who would make a needless politial statement.  And of course it was you.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 10:02:13 AM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

JWags85

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2020, 10:16:46 AM »
I know I will get blasted for this, and in some ways rightfully so, but it's kind of weird trying to process this one.  I feel awful for his wife and his kids, who are now without a father and a sister/husband and daughter at very young ages, and that's horrible and heartbreaking in every way.  I feel awful for all the people he was close to and for the basketball community, as he was obviously a very large figure in the basketball community and was an all time great, no doubt about it.

But who I also feel sorry for is the woman he raped, who now has to hear about how this world lost a great human being for the next number of weeks, plus for all the "Who we lost this year" at the end of 2020.  I squirm a little bit every time I see some basketball fan on social media posting about the great person this world lost.  While he seemed to have matured and certainly seems to be a great family man since he retired from basketball, it's tough for me to feel comfortable considering him this great human being when I never met him and when his lawyer released a statement from him that stated Kobe performed the definition of a rape ("I thought it was consensual at the time, but after reviewing all the facts in this case I now understand how she did not consider it consensual").

That's not to say he "deserved" this or that the world is a "better place" without him.  Not at all.  I just hate seeing these people who have never met the guy calling him a great person.  No doubt he was a great basketball player and it's very weird that he is no longer on this earth, but it's just hard for me to give the guy a pass because he had enough money to settle his case outside of court and act like it never happened.  Sure, he was "young" and he seemed to have "learned" from his "mistakes."  But thankfully most people's "mistakes" when they are "young" are not raping a woman (or man).

I don't know, just a weird one for me.

I don't think its about giving him a "pass".  It was and still is a complicated case and situation.  There was a fluidity of consent to a point and then supposed removal of consent.  It wasn't open and shut either way.  That statement everyone has taken as an "admission of rape" when its clearly not, and was an acknowledgement of the issues surrounding the case as it lead to a civil resolution.  But that being said, I truly don't know what people expected him to do later in life about it.

But I think there is a weird obsession with this all or nothing notion of a person's character.  You can have ugly spots of criminality, lapses in judgement, or other distasteful behavior in your past, but move on from them, learn from them, and still be a good/great/better person.  Kobe was the first person to tell you he was imperfect.  You can look at the last 5-7 years and say wow, he really matured as a person, a father, a peer.  People that interacted with him post retirement couldn't say enough about him, when the best most could say in his prime was what an insane competitor and worker he was.

Feeling the need to "yea, buttt" everyone's remembrance of his high points is just as bad as ignoring his lows all together.

Jockey

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2020, 10:48:01 AM »
I don't think its about giving him a "pass".  It was and still is a complicated case and situation.  There was a fluidity of consent to a point and then supposed removal of consent.  It wasn't open and shut either way.  That statement everyone has taken as an "admission of rape" when its clearly not, and was an acknowledgement of the issues surrounding the case as it lead to a civil resolution.  But that being said, I truly don't know what people expected him to do later in life about it.

But I think there is a weird obsession with this all or nothing notion of a person's character.  You can have ugly spots of criminality, lapses in judgement, or other distasteful behavior in your past, but move on from them, learn from them, and still be a good/great/better person.  Kobe was the first person to tell you he was imperfect.  You can look at the last 5-7 years and say wow, he really matured as a person, a father, a peer.  People that interacted with him post retirement couldn't say enough about him, when the best most could say in his prime was what an insane competitor and worker he was.

Feeling the need to "yea, buttt" everyone's remembrance of his high points is just as bad as ignoring his lows all together.

Really well said, Wags.

withoutbias

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2020, 10:52:58 AM »
"First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado."

I won't pretend to work in the legal field, but that sounds like the definition of rape to me.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2020, 11:09:32 AM »
I won't pretend to work in the legal field, but that sounds like the definition of rape to me.

Well, that only sounds like the definition of rape if it is treated as a strict liability crime.  For many years in many jurisdictions, knowledge of the lack of consent was an element of the crime of rape.  I have no idea what elements of rape were in Colorado at the time.  But, "I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual" is absolutely not a confession of rape if knowledge of lack of consent was an element.

This is 100% not a defense of Kobe.  I am merely pointing out that the statement absolutely does not sound like the definition of rape as that crime has historically been defined.  I'm aware that the law has been changing in many jurisdiction to require affirmative consent and to apply a "reckless" standard based upon the failure to obtain such consent, but I'd be a little surprised if that was the case in Colorado in 2003.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2020, 11:22:30 AM »
Oof.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/sports/kobe-bryant-death.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

"The helicopter carrying Kobe Bryant and eight others who died in the crash had received special clearance to fly in the foggy weather."
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2020, 11:46:33 AM »
Roberto Clemente
Payne Stewart
Davey Allison
Thurman Munson
Roy Halladay
Corey Lidle
Marshall football team

Don't forget the Evansville basketball team.

In my lifetime, I think the only other deaths that compare in terms of magnitude are Hank Gathers, Len Bias and Dale Earnhardt. Those three deaths, like Kobe's transcended sports (Bias for the way he died).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:35:26 PM by Billy Hoyle »
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2020, 11:52:09 AM »
Well, that only sounds like the definition of rape if it is treated as a strict liability crime.  For many years in many jurisdictions, knowledge of the lack of consent was an element of the crime of rape.  I have no idea what elements of rape were in Colorado at the time.  But, "I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual" is absolutely not a confession of rape if knowledge of lack of consent was an element.

This is 100% not a defense of Kobe.  I am merely pointing out that the statement absolutely does not sound like the definition of rape as that crime has historically been defined.  I'm aware that the law has been changing in many jurisdiction to require affirmative consent and to apply a "reckless" standard based upon the failure to obtain such consent, but I'd be a little surprised if that was the case in Colorado in 2003.

from what I was told (from an NBA GM, admittedly third hand), was that it was a consensual encounter but that sometime during the encounter Kobe decided to go backdoor which the accuser did not consent to. Consent can be withdrawn at any time during a sexual encounter.
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

Jockey

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2020, 12:02:02 PM »
Don't forget the Evansville basketball team.

In my lifetime, I think the only two other deaths that compare in terms of magnitude are Hank Gathers, Len Bias and Dale Earnhardt. Those three deaths, like Kobe's transcended sports (Bias for the way he died).

Those were all sad, but very different to me. Kobe was way, way, way more transcendent than any of these others. An era of the NBA was defined by Kobe. For most guys in the NBA now, Kobe was the 1st guy they idolized as they were born late in the MJ era and never got to see him at his greatest. We have had several "eras' in the NBa since the 70's. Kareem, Magic/Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and I think, we are just enter the Giannis era. Of the 3 that you mentioned, only Dale had achieved "greatness", but not to the effect that he defined the sport.


One interesting tidbit - every NBA MVP is still alive except for Wilt, Moses and now, Kobe

4everwarriors

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2020, 12:07:06 PM »
I know I will get blasted for this, and in some ways rightfully so, but it's kind of weird trying to process this one.  I feel awful for his wife and his kids, who are now without a father and a sister/husband and daughter at very young ages, and that's horrible and heartbreaking in every way.  I feel awful for all the people he was close to and for the basketball community, as he was obviously a very large figure in the basketball community and was an all time great, no doubt about it.

But who I also feel sorry for is the woman he raped, who now has to hear about how this world lost a great human being for the next number of weeks, plus for all the "Who we lost this year" at the end of 2020.  I squirm a little bit every time I see some basketball fan on social media posting about the great person this world lost.  While he seemed to have matured and certainly seems to be a great family man since he retired from basketball, it's tough for me to feel comfortable considering him this great human being when I never met him and when his lawyer released a statement from him that stated Kobe performed the definition of a rape ("I thought it was consensual at the time, but after reviewing all the facts in this case I now understand how she did not consider it consensual").

That's not to say he "deserved" this or that the world is a "better place" without him.  Not at all.  I just hate seeing these people who have never met the guy calling him a great person.  No doubt he was a great basketball player and it's very weird that he is no longer on this earth, but it's just hard for me to give the guy a pass because he had enough money to settle his case outside of court and act like it never happened.  Sure, he was "young" and he seemed to have "learned" from his "mistakes."  But thankfully most people's "mistakes" when they are "young" are not raping a woman (or man).

I don't know, just a weird one for me.




Solid and wuz wonderin' wen sumwon wood call a spade a spade. Got know issue sayin' dis wuz a tragedy and he wuz an all tyme grate basketball playa. Dat's wear it ends, doe, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

4everwarriors

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2020, 12:08:38 PM »
Roberto Clemente
Payne Stewart
Davey Allison
Thurman Munson
Roy Halladay
Corey Lidle
Marshall football team


Evansville Purple Aces
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

MU82

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2020, 12:35:56 PM »
Solid and wuz wonderin' wen sumwon wood call a spade a spade. Got know issue sayin' dis wuz a tragedy and he wuz an all tyme grate basketball playa. Dat's wear it ends, doe, hey?

Congratulations, Doc, on being able to spell "spade" correctly ... twice.
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Pakuni

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2020, 12:36:57 PM »



Solid and wuz wonderin' wen sumwon wood call a spade a spade. Got know issue sayin' dis wuz a tragedy and he wuz an all tyme grate basketball playa. Dat's wear it ends, doe, hey?

Interesting choice of words.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2020, 12:42:30 PM »
Those were all sad, but very different to me. Kobe was way, way, way more transcendent than any of these others. An era of the NBA was defined by Kobe. For most guys in the NBA now, Kobe was the 1st guy they idolized as they were born late in the MJ era and never got to see him at his greatest. We have had several "eras' in the NBa since the 70's. Kareem, Magic/Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and I think, we are just enter the Giannis era. Of the 3 that you mentioned, only Dale had achieved "greatness", but not to the effect that he defined the sport.


One interesting tidbit - every NBA MVP is still alive except for Wilt, Moses and now, Kobe

I'm not saying the were on the same level as Kobe's is definitely bigger than all of them (and happened in the social media age), and maybe I'm showing my age with these three, but:

Gathers - died on the court during a game.  The subsequent run by LMU in the 1990 NCAA tournament magnified his death.
Bias - dying from a cocaine overdose during the height of the "war on drugs" which blew up the national conversation about drug use.  Not that I was ever going to use cocaine, but I am positive many people of my generation were scared out of ever using it due to Bias' death

Earnhardt did transcend the sport (he was a cultural icon, granted not a culture I was a part of and I'm guessing the same for you) and he died on national TV during the sport's biggest event. I was no NASCAR fan but I remember being at the Annex with my then girlfriend when the crash happened and it too was front page news on every major newspaper.
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MU82

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2020, 12:48:21 PM »
I know I will get blasted for this, and in some ways rightfully so, but it's kind of weird trying to process this one.  I feel awful for his wife and his kids, who are now without a father and a sister/husband and daughter at very young ages, and that's horrible and heartbreaking in every way.  I feel awful for all the people he was close to and for the basketball community, as he was obviously a very large figure in the basketball community and was an all time great, no doubt about it.

But who I also feel sorry for is the woman he raped, who now has to hear about how this world lost a great human being for the next number of weeks, plus for all the "Who we lost this year" at the end of 2020.  I squirm a little bit every time I see some basketball fan on social media posting about the great person this world lost.  While he seemed to have matured and certainly seems to be a great family man since he retired from basketball, it's tough for me to feel comfortable considering him this great human being when I never met him and when his lawyer released a statement from him that stated Kobe performed the definition of a rape ("I thought it was consensual at the time, but after reviewing all the facts in this case I now understand how she did not consider it consensual").

That's not to say he "deserved" this or that the world is a "better place" without him.  Not at all.  I just hate seeing these people who have never met the guy calling him a great person.  No doubt he was a great basketball player and it's very weird that he is no longer on this earth, but it's just hard for me to give the guy a pass because he had enough money to settle his case outside of court and act like it never happened.  Sure, he was "young" and he seemed to have "learned" from his "mistakes."  But thankfully most people's "mistakes" when they are "young" are not raping a woman (or man).

I don't know, just a weird one for me.

You won't get blasted by me. It's an interesting conversation.

Kobe was no "hero." We have several Scoopers who have put their lives on the line, including some doing so to this very day, who are bigger "heroes" than Kobe or most other athletes ever were.

Even if he hadn't done the heinous thing that appears to be obvious to most thinking people, he had many other pretty bad character flaws. Of course, many other humans have similar flaws; we are a most imperfect species.

He shouldn't have been a role model (as Barkley alluded to in his famous/infamous commercial). But naturally, many folks do regard famous people as role models merely because they are famous and/or rich. The royal family is among the most ridiculous examples.

Some journalists who have covered Kobe for years have said that he worked hard to clean up his image by trying to be a better person. He had done a lot of charitable work in recent years, had immersed himself in making things better for female athletes, had been a loving father. If all of that is true, I am glad he was able to better the lives of others before he passed away.

A lot of people died Sunday that were nowhere near that helicopter. Regular folks -- many bad I'm sure, but probably mostly good people. They were just as important and meaningful and valuable as Kobe Bryant.

I am not saying he shouldn't be mourned or remembered or eulogized, not saying he won't be missed. Just trying to keep things in perspective. Just because he was rich and famous -- or even relatively young -- it doesn't make his death more horrible than thousands of other deaths that unfortunately happened the same day or week or month.

And all of those deaths -- as well as the other kinds of adversity life throws at all of us -- are the kinds of things that help me keep perspective and not lose my shyte over the results of a Marquette basketball game.

That's just me. I know others handle things differently, and I'm not saying my way is better than anybody else's.

Here's to life, everybody!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

buckchuckler

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Re: Kobe Bryant
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2020, 01:14:42 PM »
Roberto Clemente
Payne Stewart
Davey Allison
Thurman Munson
Roy Halladay
Corey Lidle
Marshall football team

Jose Fernandez. He had the talent to be an all time great.  And his death probably dramatically changed the Marlins franchise.

 

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