How Good A Coach Is Wojo - Using Charts

[Galway Eagle]

He won 20 games and finished ~100th in KenPom, missed the NIT, with a one and done on roster - inexplicably trying to force Haanif Cheatham into the PG slot, while massively underutilizing JJJ.

I didn't say it wasn't bad decision making just said that if he won 20 games making atrocious decisions sign me up for when all the decisions become good

[Elonsmusk]

I didn't say it wasn't bad decision making just said that if he won 20 games making atrocious decisions sign me up for when all the decisions become good

My bad. Of course no coach is going to press all the right buttons, just felt he really pressed a lot of wrong ones those first couple of years. This is his best year of coaching since at MU IMO.

[WhoaJoe2020]

And Duke is known to many as:  Douche

Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism.   No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current "traditional trajectory."

I'm finally starting to figure you out....

You're that guy who won't be satisfied no matter what.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'm finally starting to figure you out....

You're that guy who won't be satisfied no matter what.

You're thinking of muguru

[BallBoy]

My post was speaking real time. As in the day Wojo walked into the MU job. Of course I knew there were coaches at MU who turned in worse records their first two years.

Wojo's coaching and decision-making were atrocious Years 1 and 2.  He's improved some since that time.

1.  You have spoken ad nauseam on two mistakes.  Burton and Dawson.  What we can look at is data under Buzz and data after they left. 

What we saw under Buzz for Burton is:
He only started 3 games and only played 12mins/game.  Wojo increased his on court time by 33% so he was giving him more time than Buzz did.  What we don't know is if any of the offcourt issue were impacting his prep and practice which caused Wojo to give the start to someone else.  Regardless Burton gave it 8 games.  Seems like someone who wanted out of town for personal reasons.

What we saw with Dawson:
Buzz gave him zero time.  Last guy off the bench before Walkons.  Under Wojo he was the last guy off the bench.  He transferred and still wasn't high major material with more PT.  he had a year off to improve his game and didn't.  Can't be that big of a mistake.  Oh and who recruited your boy Derrick Wilson? 

2.  Another one you throw out.  Wojo stunted JJJ growth.  Actually the reverse.   JJJ, whose form was broke, went from 21% 3pt shooter his Sophomore year to a 38% shooter his junior and senior year.  Assists/Game increased by a full assist with only 5 extra minutes of time.  He also developed a midrange jumper and wasn't a curl to the right every attempt.  JJJ issue was he wasn't aggressive.  He was very passive.

if we look at 2015, Wojo's first big recruit averaged a near double double.  Cheatham was the best scoring PG option we had.  And there was a little utilized player who turned into a major contributor by his senior year in Anim. 

**Noticed that I stated 2020 instead of 2015 when referencing Ellenson as having a double double.

[Elonsmusk]

I'm finally starting to figure you out....

You're that guy who won't be satisfied no matter what.

What was your first clue?  My username?

P.S. - A jeweler can get the best gems, but if he doesn't know how to sell them, they aren't very valuable.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Except next year's class is one of the best incoming classes in MU history, the highest-rated BE class and a top 10 overall class by some measures.

How did this happen given your argument?

Is Buzz Williams still recruiting for MU?  That's my point.  Things changed at MU and it didn't mesh with Buzz's strength.  So, Buzz and MU moved on to some place and to some one who do.

[Marcus92]

Frankly, the reference to "Duke without the jeweler" is confusing.

At first, I thought this meant Marquette is Duke without the postseason success (in other words, a program that's steered clear of scandal but doesn't have any NCAA championship rings to show for it).

Another poster apparently thought "the jeweler" referred to the coach. So Duke without the jeweler would be a basketball program without someone who can transform rough, uncut stones (low-ranked recruits?) into brilliant gems. Except for the fact that Duke pretty much only recruits finished diamonds.

Then there's a literal connection between Duke and a jeweler -- when the NCAA investigated former Duke player Lance Thomas for obtaining $100,000 worth of jewelry during his senior year at Duke.

[WhoaJoe2020]

1.  You have spoken ad nauseam on two mistakes.  Burton and Dawson.  What we can look at is data under Buzz and data after they left. 

What we saw under Buzz for Burton is:
He only started 3 games and only played 12mins/game.  Wojo increased his on court time by 33% so he was giving him more time than Buzz did.  What we don't know is if any of the offcourt issue were impacting his prep and practice which caused Wojo to give the start to someone else.  Regardless Burton gave it 8 games.  Seems like someone who wanted out of town for personal reasons.

What we saw with Dawson:
Buzz gave him zero time.  Last guy off the bench before Walkons.  Under Wojo he was the last guy off the bench.  He transferred and still wasn't high major material with more PT.  he had a year off to improve his game and didn't.  Can't be that big of a mistake.  Oh and who recruited your boy Derrick Wilson? 

2.  Another one you throw out.  Wojo stunted JJJ growth.  Actually the reverse.   JJJ, whose form was broke, went from 21% 3pt shooter his Sophomore year to a 38% shooter his junior and senior year.  Assists/Game increased by a full assist with only 5 extra minutes of time.  He also developed a midrange jumper and wasn't a curl to the right every attempt.  JJJ issue was he wasn't aggressive.  He was very passive.

if we look at 2020, Wojo's first big recruit averaged a near double double.  Cheatham was the best scoring PG option we had.  And there was a little utilized player who turned into a major contributor by his senior year in Anim.

Those facts don't fit some peoples narrative. Knock it off.

Wojo came from a school that doesn't  get many 5 star recruits, so he doesn't have any idea how to assess, develop, and utilize real talent.

It's a pity......He seems like a nice guy.

[Elonsmusk]

1.  You have spoken ad nauseam on two mistakes.  Burton and Dawson.  What we can look at is data under Buzz and data after they left. 

What we saw under Buzz for Burton is:
He only started 3 games and only played 12mins/game.  Wojo increased his on court time by 33% so he was giving him more time than Buzz did.  What we don't know is if any of the offcourt issue were impacting his prep and practice which caused Wojo to give the start to someone else.  Regardless Burton gave it 8 games.  Seems like someone who wanted out of town for personal reasons.

What we saw with Dawson:
Buzz gave him zero time.  Last guy off the bench before Walkons.  Under Wojo he was the last guy off the bench.  He transferred and still wasn't high major material with more PT.  he had a year off to improve his game and didn't.  Can't be that big of a mistake.  Oh and who recruited your boy Derrick Wilson? 

2.  Another one you throw out.  Wojo stunted JJJ growth.  Actually the reverse.   JJJ, whose form was broke, went from 21% 3pt shooter his Sophomore year to a 38% shooter his junior and senior year.  Assists/Game increased by a full assist with only 5 extra minutes of time.  He also developed a midrange jumper and wasn't a curl to the right every attempt.  JJJ issue was he wasn't aggressive.  He was very passive.

if we look at 2020, Wojo's first big recruit averaged a near double double.  Cheatham was the best scoring PG option we had.  And there was a little utilized player who turned into a major contributor by his senior year in Anim.

Agree to disagree.  Won't re-litigate my reasons.  The "results" of Year 1 and 2 speak for themselves.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Dr....I agree with most of this post until some of the last paragraph.  It's not that people are "happy" with a .500 BE record and making the field.  I think some of us have higher standards that believe we can recruit a certain way AND do well...it's not an either or choice.  The challenge is that it cannot be done overnight and will take a massive cultural change and years of getting those types of kids to do it properly.  Requires patience.  And yes, it causes a rift, but if it works the upside is fantastic for the school and program. 

Will people have the patience?

I am actually in agreement with all of this. Maybe "okay" is a better word than "happy". 

As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job.  He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it. 

But, to again regurgitate my long buried dead  horse opus....unlike some here who thought Buzz left a full closet...or those who maintain it was half full...Wojo should have come in and Pole Whacked from Day 1. I was on an island back then, except with Carolyn Kieger.

I believe time has proven me correct--he should have cleaned the closet and replaced it with his style sooner than later. I mean, did anyone really think Mayo, Dawson, Taylor, Burton, Cohen, Noskowiak, etc we're going to stick at MU? I didn't...but Wojo did very good job piecing that team together, or what was left of it. MU was going to be bad no matter what...but it set the rebuild back a couple of years. 

With the delay and Hausergate, I said this past November was a big test for me on Wojo. Tough lineup of games and the recruiting class. He did very well with both.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Frankly, the reference to "Duke without the jeweler" is confusing.

At first, I thought this meant Marquette is Duke without the postseason success (in other words, a program that's steered clear of scandal but doesn't have any NCAA championship rings to show for it).

Another poster apparently thought "the jeweler" referred to the coach. So Duke without the jeweler would be a basketball program without someone who can transform rough, uncut stones (low-ranked recruits?) into brilliant gems. Except for the fact that Duke pretty much only recruits finished diamonds.

Then there's a literal connection between Duke and a jeweler -- when the NCAA investigated former Duke player Lance Thomas for obtaining $100,000 worth of jewelry during his senior year at Duke.

A jeweler doesn't cut gems, a gem cutter does.

A jeweler takes gems of various quality and places them in settings that show them off to their best effect. The better the quality of the gems, the easier it is to achieve a high quality result in the finished piece.

Wojo is the jeweler, and he's got a batch of fine gems this year, and another batch arriving next year.
The finished product will depend on how he places them and on whether any of them get chipped before they get placed in their setting.

[Elonsmusk]

A jeweler doesn't cut gems, a gem cutter does.

A jeweler takes gems of various quality and places them in settings that show them off to their best effect. The better the quality of the gems, the easier it is to achieve a high quality result in the finished piece.

Wojo is the jeweler, and he's got a batch of fine gems this year, and another batch arriving next year.
The finished product will depend on how he places them and on whether any of them get chipped before they get placed in their setting.

Solid gold. Pun intended.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Frankly, the reference to "Duke without the jeweler" is confusing.

At first, I thought this meant Marquette is Duke without the postseason success (in other words, a program that's steered clear of scandal but doesn't have any NCAA championship rings to show for it).

Another poster apparently thought "the jeweler" referred to the coach. So Duke without the jeweler would be a basketball program without someone who can transform rough, uncut stones (low-ranked recruits?) into brilliant gems. Except for the fact that Duke pretty much only recruits finished diamonds.

Then there's a literal connection between Duke and a jeweler -- when the NCAA investigated former Duke player Lance Thomas for obtaining $100,000 worth of jewelry during his senior year at Duke.

Double entendre: All of the above but with Capel coming back to Duke, things changed at Duke. One and Dones we're now okay.  Lance Thomas. Zion. 

The fact that so many are debating this means I earned my keep. Please send BnC coupons to my Paypal as my reward.

[Elonsmusk]

I am actually in agreement with all of this. Maybe "okay" is a better word than "happy". 

As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job.  He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it. 

But, to again regurgitate my long buried dead  horse opus....unlike some here who thought Buzz left a full closet...or those who maintain it was half full...Wojo should have come in and Pole Whacked from Day 1. I was on an island back then, except with Carolyn Kieger.

I believe time has proven me correct--he should have cleaned the closet and replaced it with his style sooner than later. I mean, did anyone really think Mayo, Dawson, Taylor, Burton, Cohen, Noskowiak, etc we're going to stick at MU? I didn't...but Wojo did very good job piecing that team together, or what was left of it. MU was going to be bad no matter what...but it set the rebuild back a couple of years. 

With the delay and Hausergate, I said this past November was a big test for me on Wojo. Tough lineup of games and the recruiting class. He did very well with both.

All of those players you mention essentially recommitted you MU after Wojo was named head coach. They could have transferred or asked for their release from NLI.

What was the sense in Wojo's Year 1 approach?  Why bring in Carlino?  Why max Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson?

My approach would have been to Max this starting lineup:

1 - Duane
2 - Dawson
3 - JJJ
4 - Burton
5 - Luke

I tend to think if that team had the luxury of playing 60 games together as a consistent starting lineup, that by the end of Year 2 they are NCAA team and by end of Year 3 an NCAA team that could make some noise.

[WhiteTrash]

Dr....I agree with most of this post until some of the last paragraph.  It's not that people are "happy" with a .500 BE record and making the field.  I think some of us have higher standards that believe we can recruit a certain way AND do well...it's not an either or choice.  The challenge is that it cannot be done overnight and will take a massive cultural change and years of getting those types of kids to do it properly.  Requires patience.  And yes, it causes a rift, but if it works the upside is fantastic for the school and program. 

Will people have the patience?

You only asked one of a two part question. "Will people have the patience AND will Wojo be able to produce given the time?" If only it was as simple as being patient; MU would have given Wojo a long term contract by now and we'd seeing Final Fours every other year.

[BallBoy]

I am actually in agreement with all of this. Maybe "okay" is a better word than "happy". 

As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job.  He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it. 

But, to again regurgitate my long buried dead  horse opus....unlike some here who thought Buzz left a full closet...or those who maintain it was half full...Wojo should have come in and Pole Whacked from Day 1. I was on an island back then, except with Carolyn Kieger.

I believe time has proven me correct--he should have cleaned the closet and replaced it with his style sooner than later. I mean, did anyone really think Mayo, Dawson, Taylor, Burton, Cohen, Noskowiak, etc we're going to stick at MU? I didn't...but Wojo did very good job piecing that team together, or what was left of it. MU was going to be bad no matter what...but it set the rebuild back a couple of years. 

With the delay and Hausergate, I said this past November was a big test for me on Wojo. Tough lineup of games and the recruiting class. He did very well with both.

Just a few things.  Mayo never played for Wojo.  He left in July of 2014 to play professionally.  I don't believe Wojo had truly kept a spot for Noskowiak.  Nick was having issues in Feb 2015 so it was a full 6 months before he would have joined the program.  Wojo just waited for him to have bigger issue to cut ties. 

What you are forgetting is that Buzz left in March of 2014 and unfortunately most if not all of the quality players are signed by then for 2014-2015 (Wojo season one).  Spring signing ended on April 1, 2014, which was the day Wojo was announced as head coach.  It wasn't like Wojo could cut bait and fill in the spots with his choice of player.  Also MU had three signed players de-commit (Ahmed Hill, Shayok and the center who later transferred under Buzz).  Cohen was the only Buzz recruit that started his career under Wojo (Fisher was there under Buzz but had to sit out).  If he cut Burton, Taylor, Dawson, his rotation would have been 7 players from the 10 scholarship players he had.  After Dawson and Burton left he only had 8 scholarship players. How much more could he have cut?

He went out and got Carlino to get us some chance at winning games.  What would have happened sans Carlino that year?  We hear how horrible the year was but without Carlino we would have been significantly worse. Had Burton stayed the full year we might have been in better shape.  Dawson was not the answer.  No matter what one poster says he wouldn't have made things better and Burton was leaving no matter what.


Going into 2015-16 season he went out and brought in Ellenson,  Anim, Heldt, Haanif, and Carter.  He also had Rowsey sitting out for a transfer.  Not a horrible class for one year at MU and people wondering what the Big East/MU was going to be. 

[WhoaJoe2020]

Just a few things.  Mayo never played for Wojo.  He left in July of 2014 to play professionally.  I don't believe Wojo had truly kept a spot for Noskowiak.  Nick was having issues in Feb 2015 so it was a full 6 months before he would have joined the program.  Wojo just waited for him to have bigger issue to cut ties. 

What you are forgetting is that Buzz left in March of 2014 and unfortunately most if not all of the quality players are signed by then for 2014-2015 (Wojo season one).  Spring signing ended on April 1, 2014, which was the day Wojo was announced as head coach.  It wasn't like Wojo could cut bait and fill in the spots with his choice of player.  Also MU had three signed players de-commit (Ahmed Hill, Shayok and the center who later transferred under Buzz).  Cohen was the only Buzz recruit that started his career under Wojo (Fisher was there under Buzz but had to sit out).  If he cut Burton, Taylor, Dawson, his rotation would have been 7 players from the 10 scholarship players he had.  After Dawson and Burton left he only had 8 scholarship players. How much more could he have cut?

He went out and got Carlino to get us some chance at winning games.  What would have happened sans Carlino that year?  We hear how horrible the year was but without Carlino we would have been significantly worse. Had Burton stayed the full year we might have been in better shape.  Dawson was not the answer.  No matter what one poster says he wouldn't have made things better and Burton was leaving no matter what.


Going into 2015-16 season he went out and brought in Ellenson,  Anim, Heldt, Haanif, and Carter.  He also had Rowsey sitting out for a transfer.  Not a horrible class for one year at MU and people wondering what the Big East/MU was going to be.

Would you please stop providing facts and reasonable analysis when reviewing Wojos tenure as Marquettes head coach. You're starting to make me think I'm not crazy.

[lurch91]

And Duke is known to many as:  Douche

Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism.   No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current "traditional trajectory."

So now you don't want Wojo to succeed because of the association with Duke? Just say you hate him, want him fired for personal reasons and move on.

[Cheeks]

Good stuff on both of these.  Culture is a tough thing to change and takes a lot of effort and consistency over time.

A friend of mine (talking business over the weekend) said the quick solution is more often than not an unethical solution.

Take the time to build it right!

I agree in general.  It is really tough to turn an Aircraft Carrier.  Culture has to be bought in by all, including the fans....that makes it even tougher. 

[Cheeks]

And Duke is known to many as:  Douche

Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism.   No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current "traditional trajectory."

Honest question for you and others


How many of you don't like Wojo or never gave him a chance from day one because he went to Duke?  How much has that colored your views?


I'd ask the same about Larry Williams and going to Notre Dame.


Feels like some of these guys were down 0-2 in the count before they even stepped into the batter's box.

I see what you tried to do at the end, and it won't work.  Look at our recruits...not playing the "traditional" nonsense game with you or anyone else.  Traditional means sound basketball players in the fundamental sense.  Not athletes first, but traditional basketball players first.  The other attribution which was nothing but horse hockey is more than proven wrong again by this recruiting class...again.  That definition will not hunt and was started by the same group of folks that want to play that card. No dice then and certainly not now.

[Cheeks]

All of those players you mention essentially recommitted you MU after Wojo was named head coach. They could have transferred or asked for their release from NLI.

What was the sense in Wojo's Year 1 approach?  Why bring in Carlino?  Why max Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson?

My approach would have been to Max this starting lineup:

1 - Duane
2 - Dawson
3 - JJJ
4 - Burton
5 - Luke

I tend to think if that team had the luxury of playing 60 games together as a consistent starting lineup, that by the end of Year 2 they are NCAA team and by end of Year 3 an NCAA team that could make some noise.

What is your obsession with Dawson?  Burton hardly played under Buzz....why?  Etc etc

[WhoaJoe2020]

So now you don't want Wojo to succeed because of the association with Duke? Just say you hate him, want him fired for personal reasons and move on.

If he did that, it would make all the hard work and twisted logic he invested in tearing Wojo down nothing but a foolish waste of time.

[Elonsmusk]

If he did that, it would make all the hard work and twisted logic he invested in tearing Wojo down nothing but a foolish waste of time.

Speaking of wasting time. 25 posts per day on average. In addition to your other account. #unhinged

There is no "twisted logic."  We share a different opinion. You think Wojo is a "jeweler" and the second coming of Coach K. I think he's a mediocre coach, who was awful his first couple of years.

I always want MU to win. I compliment Wojo when/where I see fit and criticize the same.

[jesmu84]

Speaking of wasting time. 25 posts per day on average. In addition to your other account. #unhinged

There is no "twisted logic."  We share a different opinion. You think Wojo is a "jeweler" and the second coming of Coach K. I think he's a mediocre coach, who was awful his first couple of years.

I always want MU to win. I compliment Wojo when/where I see fit and criticize the same.

To be fair to Ners, this iteration of him has been much more reasonable.