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Author Topic: I didn't get to watch the game...  (Read 6240 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #175 on: January 17, 2020, 10:01:02 PM »
The programs finances and facilities were fine. The mandate to run a clean program, conference realignment, the roster you mentioned, and the fact that your only as good as your last season, we're all challenges Wojo was contending with when he was hired as a first time head coach. I suspect those challenges were the chief reason more high profile established head coaches didn't make themselves available.



Marquette has never in my lifetime been able to hire a high profile established head coach. So the “why” is we are Marquette, not the minor or imagined challenges you mention.

Again, no doubt whatsoever, the PROGRAM Wojo inherited - facilities, financial commitment, recent successes was strong.



The Lens

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #176 on: January 17, 2020, 10:02:10 PM »
The programs finances and facilities were fine. The mandate to run a clean program, conference realignment, the roster you mentioned, and the fact that your only as good as your last season, we're all challenges Wojo was contending with when he was hired as a first time head coach. I suspect those challenges were the chief reason more high profile established head coaches didn't make themselves available.

Wojo was willing to take on those challenges, and was rewarded for the results he achieved with a modest extension that matched the results. If he wants to get another extension he will probably have to produce better results. With the recruits he has coming in, he just might get those results.

Hope so.

Clean program, lol

All those NCAA sanctions, reduced scholarships, post season bans, banners that came down. 

That God we cleaned that mess up. 
The Teal Train has left the station and Lens is day drinking in the bar car    ---- Dr. Blackheart

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #177 on: January 17, 2020, 10:11:51 PM »
Clean program, lol

All those NCAA sanctions, reduced scholarships, post season bans, banners that came down. 

That God we cleaned that mess up.

I obviously meant compared to Buzz.

WhiteTrash

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #178 on: January 17, 2020, 10:12:40 PM »
We agree, and Wojo and Deane are nowhere comparable in any way whatsoever.

I never compared Wojo to Deane. NEVER.

It's hard to take your post seriously when you don't read or purposely misrepresent my posts.

That said, I don't think we agree about MU and the people who work for MU. I like MU's athletic department and its ability to run a high major program. You don't think they are competent and can not hire a good coach; hence your position "be careful what you wish for". 

You need to own your position. Have some backbone. You may be right.


Lennys Tap

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #179 on: January 17, 2020, 10:22:40 PM »
I obviously meant compared to Buzz.

Like Lens said, all those sanctions imposed, Big East championships nullified, NCAA tournament victories vacated, banners brought down from the rafters...oh...never happened after Buzz left? Never mind.

WhiteTrash

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #180 on: January 17, 2020, 11:04:45 PM »
I am not sure why, but good experienced coaches do not want to coach at MU.
I don't know why the discussion is about 'good experienced coaches' for MU's head coach.

Maybe MU does hire the 'good experienced coach' to replace Wojo, but maybe it's another assistant (MSU and KU and others did okay with that), maybe a lower division head coach, maybe an NBA assistant coach. Who knows where that coach will come from. The real question is: Do you trust MU to make the right choice?

There are some on this board who have zero trust that MU can make the right choice. I'm not one of them.

For those who think Wojo shouldn't be fired because there is no better alternative that will be hired by MU, you should seriously start a new movement to change MU's athletic department staff and AD. That is the more significant issue than Wojo.

(agin, for the record I supported Wojo's extension and don't want him fired)   
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:08:31 PM by WhiteTrash »

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #181 on: January 17, 2020, 11:15:52 PM »
Marquette has never in my lifetime been able to hire a high profile established head coach. So the “why” is we are Marquette, not the minor or imagined challenges you mention.

Again, no doubt whatsoever, the PROGRAM Wojo inherited - facilities, financial commitment, recent successes was strong.

I listed what I felt were reasonable challenges that might cause a high profile head coach to avoid Marquette. I suspect that in the past, outside of Hank, all the candidates for HC in the past faced similar challenges and the ones that got the job were willing to accept those challenges. They were also the challenges that Wojo accepted.

The most recent success Wojo inherited from Buzz was a 17-15 record, no post season tournament and a depleted roster. Wojo also dealt with the aftermath of conference realignment, which coincidentally concluded in 2013.

He lead Marquette back to near Buzz level success last season, with a second place finish in the BEast and a 5 seed in the tournament. Everyone knows how the season ended but that doesn't erase the regular season success.

With a record nearly identical to last season at this point, this seasons ultimate success has yet to be determined. Considering the challenges Wojo faces with the Hausers and Ed bailing on the team, and a tough conference schedule still ahead, a tournament bid would be quite an accomplishment.

Hope so.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:26:31 PM by WhoaJoe2020 »

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #182 on: January 17, 2020, 11:18:48 PM »
Like Lens said, all those sanctions imposed, Big East championships nullified, NCAA tournament victories vacated, banners brought down from the rafters...oh...never happened after Buzz left? Never mind.

Are you being purposefully obtuse ?

Hope so.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:46:56 PM by WhoaJoe2020 »

TAMU Garcia

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #183 on: January 18, 2020, 01:25:08 AM »
There are some on this board who have zero trust that MU can make the right choice. I'm not one of them.

I'm definitely not one who says "never fire a coach because you don't know who will replace them", that's stupid logic. However, I did want to address this point. I don't think the issue is "zero trust in MU", I think the issue is that selecting a head coach is difficult no matter who is making the choice. You can make the home run hire that every administrator, donor, talking head, and average Joe says is the perfect candidate....and they can suck. You can hire the under the radar coach whose hiring is a shock and a confusion to everyone (and outrage to the fans)....and they can be right and that guy can still suck.

A coach who would be successful at one school won't necessarily be successful at another. You can hit a coach in the wrong part of their career.  Or you may catch lightening in a bottle.

I have 100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job. I just recognize that the best candidate for the job may end up doing worse than the guy before him. Again, that's not a reason not to fire a coach that needs to be fired, but just the reality of the business.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

willie warrior

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #184 on: January 18, 2020, 07:33:00 AM »
Marquette has never in my lifetime been able to hire a high profile established head coach. So the “why” is we are Marquette, not the minor or imagined challenges you mention.

Again, no doubt whatsoever, the PROGRAM Wojo inherited - facilities, financial commitment, recent successes was strong.
Did MU ever even make a run at a high profile established coach? Cant recall one, did we ever make a run? Guys like Ryan, Bennett or any of another dozen or so?

Pakuni

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #185 on: January 18, 2020, 07:42:03 AM »
Did MU ever even make a run at a high profile established coach? Cant recall one, did we ever make a run? Guys like Ryan, Bennett or any of another dozen or so?

Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.

tower912

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #186 on: January 18, 2020, 08:03:52 AM »
There is a legend that Bennett was offered the job, hemmed, hawed, and finally decided to take it, called an hour after Buzz accepted.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

WhiteTrash

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #187 on: January 18, 2020, 08:05:58 AM »
I'm definitely not one who says "never fire a coach because you don't know who will replace them", that's stupid logic. However, I did want to address this point. I don't think the issue is "zero trust in MU", I think the issue is that selecting a head coach is difficult no matter who is making the choice. You can make the home run hire that every administrator, donor, talking head, and average Joe says is the perfect candidate....and they can suck. You can hire the under the radar coach whose hiring is a shock and a confusion to everyone (and outrage to the fans)....and they can be right and that guy can still suck.

A coach who would be successful at one school won't necessarily be successful at another. You can hit a coach in the wrong part of their career.  Or you may catch lightening in a bottle.

I have 100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job. I just recognize that the best candidate for the job may end up doing worse than the guy before him. Again, that's not a reason not to fire a coach that needs to be fired, but just the reality of the business.

As is said in a previous post;
 "There is no guaranty the new hire would work out. Every college and pro sports team has made poor hires, but the good organizations recognize the error and correct it."

Should MU decide Wojo is not good enough and you "100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job", then the new coach will most likely be better than Wojo.

The people who defend Wojo by stating "be careful what you wish for" or "so who will you replace him with?" are making the weakest pro-Wojo argument ever. If that is the logic behind keeping Wojo then MU has serious institutional problems. (I truly don't think that is the case but some here do)

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2020, 08:12:01 AM »
I am not sure why, but good experienced coaches do not want to coach at MU.

Because 95% of "good, experienced coaches" are perfectly happy where they are and are only going to leave if it is for a clear upgrade. 


Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.

Miller and Smart were shooting for bigger jobs.  And got them.  Bennett would have been coming home, but is probably perfectly happy with the decision he made to wait.

But I think it would be wise to move on from Wojo regardless.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

rocket surgeon

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #189 on: January 18, 2020, 08:25:00 AM »
Because 95% of "good, experienced coaches" are perfectly happy where they are and are only going to leave if it is for a clear upgrade. 


Miller and Smart were shooting for bigger jobs.  And got them.  Bennett would have been coming home, but is probably perfectly happy with the decision he made to wait.

But I think it would be wise to move on from Wojo regardless.

95% ey?  source?   i'd will willing to bet if one floats the right amount of green in front of most anyone, many would be more perfectly happy to go almost anywhere
i'll take ape tit for $200 alex

WhiteTrash

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #190 on: January 18, 2020, 08:33:26 AM »
95% ey?  source?   i'd will willing to bet if one floats the right amount of green in front of most anyone, many would be more perfectly happy to go almost anywhere
I don't know the exact numbers but my perception is you don't often see P6 coaches going to other P6 jobs. Arizona, UCLA, Kentucky and Indiana all hired from outside the P6. I know it does happen but not too often.

Lennys Tap

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2020, 09:12:35 AM »


I have 100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job. I just recognize that the best candidate for the job may end up doing worse than the guy before him. Again, that's not a reason not to fire a coach that needs to be fired, but just the reality of the business.

100%? Really? I’ll go out on a limb and say there is ample history that disagrees. If, for example, Bob Dukiet was the “best candidate” for the job when he was hired then the list of potential coaches must have been awful.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2020, 09:14:42 AM »
95% ey?  source?   i'd will willing to bet if one floats the right amount of green in front of most anyone, many would be more perfectly happy to go almost anywhere


My source is my experince.  How many P6 coaches go to other P6 programs that aren't clear upgrades? 

Last year there were two P6 to P6

Mick Cronin from Cincy to UCLA - upgrade
Buzz Williams from Va Tech to A&M - moving home


2018:  Mack from X to Louisville - upgrade

2017:  Holtmann from Butler to OSU - upgrade; Cuonzo from Cal to Mizzou - escaping

2016:  Dixon from Pitt to TCU - alma mater, escaping; Stallings from Vandy to Pitt - escaping

2015:  none


So in the last 5 years it happened 7 times.

3 were clear upgrades
2 or 3 were escaping their current situations
1 or 2 were moving home


So from this, I would say that Marquette's best chance to land a "good, experienced coach" from a P6 program is if they are from the area (eg, Oats), from places where Marquette is a "clear upgrade" (honestly not that many places), or who are escaping their current situation (not sure we would want them anyway)

The next coaching hire will likely be a staff promotion, a mid-major head coach, or a P6 assistant.  Just like every coach hire Marquette has made.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 09:20:17 AM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2020, 09:29:52 AM »
100%? Really? I’ll go out on a limb and say there is ample history that disagrees. If, for example, Bob Dukiet was the “best candidate” for the job when he was hired then the list of potential coaches must have been awful.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-07-05-8602180153-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-02-04-8701090696-story.html

willie warrior

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #194 on: January 18, 2020, 09:34:35 AM »
Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.
So we have made a few runs then. Just not successful.

Cheeks

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #195 on: January 18, 2020, 09:35:37 AM »
Did MU ever even make a run at a high profile established coach? Cant recall one, did we ever make a run? Guys like Ryan, Bennett or any of another dozen or so?

Are you joking?
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

WhiteTrash

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #196 on: January 18, 2020, 09:37:03 AM »
Mick Cronin from Cincy to UCLA - upgrade
Not trying to undermine your point but Cincy is not a P6 school.

Cheeks

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #197 on: January 18, 2020, 09:39:02 AM »
I never compared Wojo to Deane. NEVER.

It's hard to take your post seriously when you don't read or purposely misrepresent my posts.

That said, I don't think we agree about MU and the people who work for MU. I like MU's athletic department and its ability to run a high major program. You don't think they are competent and can not hire a good coach; hence your position "be careful what you wish for". 

You need to own your position. Have some backbone. You may be right.

What?  You said “MU should not and will not stick with an underperforming coach because they are too afraid to hire a new coach. This was proven with Deane.”     

You have also said Wojo has underperformed, have you not?   So you compare one underperforming coach to another and go on to talk about the faith you have in MU replacing underperforming coaches.  Honestly do not know how you can say you aren’t comparing the two in the manner of them both being underperforming in your eyes.


"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #198 on: January 18, 2020, 09:41:44 AM »
Not trying to undermine your point but Cincy is not a P6 school.

Ah yeah.  Good point. 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Cheeks

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Re: I didn't get to watch the game...
« Reply #199 on: January 18, 2020, 09:42:50 AM »
As is said in a previous post;
 "There is no guaranty the new hire would work out. Every college and pro sports team has made poor hires, but the good organizations recognize the error and correct it."

Should MU decide Wojo is not good enough and you "100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job", then the new coach will most likely be better than Wojo.

The people who defend Wojo by stating "be careful what you wish for" or "so who will you replace him with?" are making the weakest pro-Wojo argument ever. If that is the logic behind keeping Wojo then MU has serious institutional problems. (I truly don't think that is the case but some here do)

You imply that is the only argument made, and that is categorically false.  Post season three straight years, in-line  to make again this year, great recruiting class, strong ticket sales, etc, etc....and yes...running off a coach with those credentials don’t stack up well for landing the next guy.  Can you imagine Coach K’s response if we ran Wojo off with those creds....that would be epic PR for the program.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire