MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on January 15, 2020, 09:19:47 PM
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but all I need to know about the results is indicated by traffic on this board. Mmmmm, sweet silence.
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Thought it was maybe our best performance of the year.
However, until we string together some victories and make a little noise in March - I don’t think you will see a lot of exuberant optimism threads started after winning a January home game against a team we were supposed to beat.
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but all I need to know about the results is indicated by traffic on this board. Mmmmm, sweet silence.
Game thread was slow from the outset.
So traffic has at least been consistently down today
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Thought it was maybe our best performance of the year.
However, until we string together some victories and make a little noise in March - I don’t think you will see a lot of exuberant optimism threads started after winning a January home game against a team we were supposed to beat.
Team played well, but Xavier missed a ton of shots. They had open looks as well. But, MU battled on the boards as a team, unlike the Providence game.
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Team played well, but Xavier missed a ton of shots. They had open looks as well. But, MU battled on the boards as a team, unlike the Providence game.
Opponent misses open shots, we are lucky.
We miss open shots, team sucks and Wojo can't coach.
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Opponent misses open shots, we are lucky.
We miss open shots, team sucks and Wojo can't coach.
Yep you see what you see.
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Thought it was maybe our best performance of the year.
However, until we string together some victories and make a little noise in March - I don’t think you will see a lot of exuberant optimism threads started after winning a January home game against a team we were supposed to beat.
I don't get this take. Why can't you enjoy a great performance by a team that has been hammered for the past two weeks by "fans"? I mean, if you are going to rip a team, people should come out and compliment these guys for showing up and putting on a great performance.
Instead its, "you guys collapsed last year, I'm not going to cheer you on".
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Team played well, but Xavier missed a ton of shots. They had open looks as well. But, MU battled on the boards as a team, unlike the Providence game.
X is an awful jump shooting team. They have been all year. So that's kinda the norm.
We mostly limited them to said jump shots and on the other end we abused them down low and on the glass(we do still miss too many layups).
It was pretty impressive overall. We are the far better 3 pt shooting team and they like to play in the paint. We flipped it and still made a better % of 3s as well.
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Opponent misses open shots, we are lucky.
We miss open shots, team sucks and Wojo can't coach.
Okay, I don't 100% agree with this, but if you think about it there is a fair amount of logic in what you posted.
You used extreme verbage to make a point, which I get. ("Wojo can't coach")
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Opponent misses open shots, we are lucky.
We miss open shots, team sucks and Wojo can't coach.
Look, Xavier went 6 of 25 from the arc. They missed a ton of shots. Thats the truth.
unnatural carnal knowledge not everything on this board has to end up a take for or against Wojo.
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we don't see optimism after January home games we're supposed to win, but conversely we do see pessimism after January road games we're supposed to lose.
I don't get it, but I accept that it is what it is I guess.
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X is an awful jump shooting team. They have been all year. So that's kinda the norm.
We mostly limited them to said jump shots and on the other end we abused them down low and on the glass(we do still miss too many layups).
It was pretty impressive overall. We are the far better 3 pt shooting team and they like to play in the paint. We flipped it and still made a better % of 3s as well.
I agree. Xavier came in with a rep of shooting poorly and they did. Credit to MU's effort on the glass.
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Thoroughly enjoyed the game.
X can't shoot it this season, but they have a bunch of men on that roster, and we crushed them on the boards, outscored them big in the paint and refused to be bullied.
We came out ready to play, and answered the bell the couple of times X threatened to make it a game.
They pulled within 7 early in the second half and then Markus said, "Enough of that." Soon enough, we were cruising again.
Bailey has become a nice all-around player. Very good rebounder in traffic. Loved seeing him driving the baseline for a dunk instead of settling for the 3.
McEwen swished a couple of 3s -- loved seeing that.
Theo and Jayce combined for 15 boards against a physical front line. I think there will be times we miss Morrow's physical play and 5 fouls, but thankfully this wasn't one of those times.
A few sloppy turnovers, including an uncharacteristic 4 by Symir, but otherwise just a nice response by Wojo's guys to score a much-needed W.
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Team played well . In particular we rebounded well. Would like to see us build off this win.
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Fun game. Credit to Wojo for going into the paint early. Markus was Markus, including driving into double teams (but 35 pts). Brendan keeps getting better. Koby looking more comfortable. Killed X on the boards. I don't know what Theo has to do to stop getting cheap whistles, but even without Ed and Greg, nobody fouled out. Somehow.
Hardly a turning point game, but it beats the sh*t out of 1-4.
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but all I need to know about the results is indicated by traffic on this board. Mmmmm, sweet silence.
Let me try.
1. Marquette played like a team that has been reading comments on scoop for the last four days.
2. Everybody not named Markus also contributed offensively.
3. Bully ball by our bigs. ( A little alliteration aina. )
4. Up tempo offense. Sloppy at times, superb at others. Transition threes.
5. Physical defense and rebounding.(see point no.3)
6. Symir is gonna be really good...... when he settles the hell down.
7. Brendan might be better than Joey.
8. Do I really have to bother mentioning Markus????? OK, he was great.
9. No let down in intensity.
10. Truly a tremendous team triumph( yeah alliteration is fun )
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we don't see optimism after January home games we're supposed to win, but conversely we do see pessimism after January road games we're supposed to lose.
I don't get it, but I accept that it is what it is I guess.
Dude, this is sports at every level. I don't know how you don't get this unless you're new to sports. Have you heard the term "this is a no win game"?. High level teams are held to a higher standard by fans and media. Let's hope MU does not fall out of that category.
Also, if certain players didn't transfer we would have been favored at SH.
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They took a ton of 3s late trying to catch up.......for most of the game they tried to score in the paint and MUs defense was up to the challenge.
Xavier is a much better shooting team from 2 then we are......tonight not so much.
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Very solid win. They imposed their will tonight and were on a mission. Georgetown must beat Creighton at home, so that won’t be an easy one. Really need to string together some wins here.
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Dude, this is sports at every level. I don't know how you don't get this unless you're new to sports. Have you heard the term "this is a no win game"?. High level teams are held to a higher standard by fans and media. Let's hope MU does not fall out of that category.
Also, if certain players didn't transfer we would have been favored at SH.
not new. but I grew up as a fan of the Chargers and Padres. maybe that made me less "rabid" in comparison to other fan bases. every win was a gift, and the losses were opportunities for growth. I don't think either type of fan is better than the other tho. it's just how I am. hope I'm still welcome to lurk.
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we don't see optimism after January home games we're supposed to win, but conversely we do see pessimism after January road games we're supposed to lose.
I don't get it, but I accept that it is what it is I guess.
Thanks Captain Obvious Observation.
Just kidding. I wholeheartedly agree. I am as perplexed as you are. People just love to bitch I guess.
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Well done.
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Let's see if this can carry over to a productive day on the road.
Will be there Sat. rooting these Warriors on.
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Thanks Captain Obvious Observation.
Just kidding. I wholeheartedly agree. I am as perplexed as you are. People just love to bitch I guess.
There is an old saying "The more you complain, the more God lets you Live."
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There is an old saying "The more you complain, the more God lets you Live."
Some on this board are looking at immortality
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Probably the best 40 minutes we've put together since USC, and to do it short-handed was a nice surprise. The role players did exactly what we needed them to do, Markus did Markus things, and the effort/focus was strong the whole game. Lots to like tonight.
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Some on this board are looking at immortality
Very Clever, Bravo.
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Dude, this is sports at every level. I don't know how you don't get this unless you're new to sports. Have you heard the term "this is a no win game"?. High level teams are held to a higher standard by fans and media. Let's hope MU does not fall out of that category.
Also, if certain players didn't transfer we would have been favored at SH.
Completely delusional.
If certain players hadn't transferred, we'd be a hot mess due to bad chemistry, and people from this board would be meeting outside Fiserv to reenact the fight scene from Ron Burgundy after each game.
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Opponent misses open shots, we are lucky.
We miss open shots, team sucks and Wojo can't coach.
Marquette wins = the other team sucked.
Other team wins = Marquette sucks.
This logic permeates a segment if all sports fans, not just here.
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Completely delusional.
If certain players hadn't transferred, we'd be a hot mess due to bad chemistry, and people from this board would be meeting outside Fiserv to reenact the fight scene from Ron Burgundy after each game.
Well I guess you're a firm "No-Jo" guy. You maybe right, I suppose I'm more of a "Pro-Jo" guy.
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Homer mentioned on the postgame show that all MU players that played (excluding the club trillion crew) had 3 or more rebounds. Symir even grabbed 4! That has to be one of the better rebounding efforts we've had in conference play in recent years, right?
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If certain players hadn't transferred, we'd be a hot mess due to bad chemistry, and people from this board would be meeting outside Fiserv to reenact the fight scene from Ron Burgundy after each game.
Wait, is that an option? Scoop meetup, AND THE STREETS WILL RUN BLUE WITH MARQUETTE FAN BLOOD!!!
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not new. but I grew up as a fan of the Chargers and Padres. maybe that made me less "rabid" in comparison to other fan bases. every win was a gift, and the losses were opportunities for growth. I don't think either type of fan is better than the other tho. it's just how I am. hope I'm still welcome to lurk.
Always welcome here. While I'm sorry your a San Diego fan ;), I'm guessing you grew up in that area, so I'm jealous of you.
MU is a great university with great people and great alumni. The program has done great things and we should expect great things based upon the resources MU spends. MU > Padres. ;D
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Team played well, but Xavier missed a ton of shots. They had open looks as well. But, MU battled on the boards as a team, unlike the Providence game.
That's what Xavier does this year. They were open with good reason.
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Wait, is that an option? Scoop meetup, AND THE STREETS WILL RUN BLUE WITH MARQUETTE FAN BLOOD!!!
Dibs on the trident
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we don't see optimism after January home games we're supposed to win, but conversely we do see pessimism after January road games we're supposed to lose.
I don't get it, but I accept that it is what it is I guess.
Fantastic post, sir. Please continue to contribute.
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Dibs on the trident
Hand grenade.
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Marquette wins = the other team sucked.
Other team wins = Marquette sucks.
This logic permeates a segment if all sports fans, not just here.
Crazy is universal
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That's what Xavier does this year. They were open with good reason.
Yep. Lots of crazy chucking of 3s at the end. The X fans at the table next to me were saying a lot of what this board says when they did it--called it undisciplined, rushed and dumb. Although they then talked about the new class for 2020 and how exciting next year would be.
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Four different MU players scored before Markus took his first shot.
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Dude, this is sports at every level. I don't know how you don't get this unless you're new to sports. Have you heard the term "this is a no win game"?. High level teams are held to a higher standard by fans and media. Let's hope MU does not fall out of that category.
Also, if certain players didn't transfer we would have been favored at SH.
No we wouldn't have.
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Thought it was maybe our best performance of the year.
However, until we string together some victories and make a little noise in March - I don’t think you will see a lot of exuberant optimism threads started after winning a January home game against a team we were supposed to beat.
This is where I'm at. Loved the win tonight. Fantastic game, moved the ball mostly really well. Bigs contributed big time. Zero to complain about. Hope Ed & Greg are back soon.
This all said, until we see some consistency from this team, it feels too much like fools gold to get overly excited...yet. But I was impressed tonight and hope we see more of this in the next game.
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That's what Xavier does this year. They were open with good reason.
This.
I guess some folks think it's impossible that the defensive gameplan was to invite a poor-shooting team to take 3s rather than go into the paint.
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Look, Xavier went 6 of 25 from the arc. They missed a ton of shots. Thats the truth.
unnatural carnal knowledge not everything on this board has to end up a take for or against Wojo.
According to Tower, the voice of Wojo impartiality, it is a take of people against Wojo. I am glad the Warriors looked good and won. Also hope we can string a few wins. We need them. Xavier is not very good this year. Let's see how we fare against GT.
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Let me try.
1. Marquette played like a team that has been reading comments on scoop for the last four days.
2. Everybody not named Markus also contributed offensively.
3. Bully ball by our bigs. ( A little alliteration aina. )
4. Up tempo offense. Sloppy at times, superb at others. Transition threes.
5. Physical defense and rebounding.(see point no.3)
6. Symir is gonna be really good...... when he settles the hell down.
7. Brendan might be better than Joey.
8. Do I really have to bother mentioning Markus????? OK, he was great.
9. No let down in intensity.
10. Truly a tremendous team triumph( yeah alliteration is fun )
Brendan "might" be better than Joey. Does that also mean that Joey might be better than Brendan?
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This.
I guess some folks think it's impossible that the defensive gameplan was to invite a poor-shooting team to take 3s rather than go into the paint.
Maybe our luck is changing. Have seen this strategy lead to career days from previously poor shooting players in the past (Samuels from Villanova comes to mind). Glad we got the win. Let’s take care of GT and get on a roll!
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This.
I guess some folks think it's impossible that the defensive gameplan was to invite a poor-shooting team to take 3s rather than go into the paint.
Agree. Defense and rebounding were the key to the easy win. We needed this one, and it is encouraging that we took it easily against a team that also really needed it.
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Maybe our luck is changing. Have seen this strategy lead to career days from previously poor shooting players in the past (Samuels from Villanova comes to mind). Glad we got the win. Let’s take care of GT and get on a roll!
The Samuels game and maybe a couple others were outliers IMHO. Think about how often defenses dared Derrick Wilson, Junior, Dom, Vander, etc to shoot. IIRC, many opponents dared the entire 2012-13 and 2013-14 MU teams to shoot 3s.
Defenses can't stop everything. You pick your poison. Siding to make a lousy-shooting team like X beat you from the perimeter is practically a no-brainer. Was there a chance that X could get hot for that one game? Sure. But preparing a team for a game is almost always about playing the percentages.
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Does anyone know which assistant was responsible for the scout/gameplan for this game? It was effective on both ends of the floor.
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The Samuels game and maybe a couple others were outliers IMHO. Think about how often defenses dared Derrick Wilson, Junior, Dom, Vander, etc to shoot. IIRC, many opponents dared the entire 2012-13 and 2013-14 MU teams to shoot 3s.
Defenses can't stop everything. You pick your poison. Siding to make a lousy-shooting team like X beat you from the perimeter is practically a no-brainer. Was there a chance that X could get hot for that one game? Sure. But preparing a team for a game is almost always about playing the percentages.
Oh, I definitely agree with you. I just tend to remember the outliers. I was the same way taking tests. Always ruminating on the questions I thought I got wrong and never on the 80-90% of the questions that were no-brainers.
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Defense was very good, but I was mostly encouraged how we attacked the basket on offense. Got the ball inside instead of just launching.
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Defense was very good, but I was mostly encouraged how we attacked the basket on offense. Got the ball inside instead of just launching.
Agreed. A lot more of a focus on getting in the paint. That work early on opened the floor to the shooters.
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but all I need to know about the results is indicated by traffic on this board. Mmmmm, sweet silence.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact the game wasn't televised for a lot of us? Might be a better explanation than the idea that everyone disappears from Scoop when MU wins *shrug*
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The biggest example of the change in focus/intensity for me was when Brendan attacked baseline for a dunk instead of settling for a corner 3 like he has in the past. An aggressive Bailey on the offensive end(ie attacking instead of always taking jumpers) would be a very key development for this team. BB can get to the hoop against other teams as well as shoot but he tends to hesitate on the drive for some reason. A slashing 4 could be a perfect salve on this teams occasional offensive woes.
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The biggest example of the change in focus/intensity for me was when Brendan attacked baseline for a dunk instead of settling for a corner 3 like he has in the past. An aggressive Bailey on the offensive end(ie attacking instead of always taking jumpers) would be a very key development for this team. BB can get to the hoop against other teams as well as shoot but he tends to hesitate on the drive for some reason. A slashing 4 could be a perfect salve on this teams occasional offensive woes.
Yep ... I LOVED that dunk! There was a game earlier in the season in which Bailey paused, thought about it, begrudgingly drove the baseline, and missed the uncontested layup. I couldn't help but shout, "Dunk it!" at the TV. Thrilled to see how much more comfortable, involved and aggressive BB has become the last month or so.
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Yep ... I LOVED that dunk! There was a game earlier in the season in which Bailey paused, thought about it, begrudgingly drove the baseline, and missed the uncontested layup. I couldn't help but shout, "Dunk it!" at the TV. Thrilled to see how much more comfortable, involved and aggressive BB has become the last month or so.
That play last night was the same as the one against Wisconsin when he tried to lay it in and had a very different outcome. I would love to see that side of Brendan a little more. I'm happy he was able to finish the game the way he did, because he was pretty quiet offensively until the last 5-6 minutes. Let's hope that big dunk last night (SC top 10 worthy, IMO) can help give him the confidence to go make big plays a little more often.
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On the FS postgame show, they lavished praise on the lead guards for MU and SH.
They included a graphic with stats while they were doing the gushing:
Markus 35 pts vs X on 12-27 shooting; Powell 29 pts vs Butler on 9-23 shooting.
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On the FS postgame show, they lavished praise on the lead guards for MU and SH.
They included a graphic with stats while they were doing the gushing:
Markus 35 pts vs X on 12-27 shooting; Powell 29 pts vs Butler on 9-23 shooting.
The way Markus played last night is a great example of both Markus and Wojo making adjustments that the fanbase seemingly doesn't credit or notice. I've been as hard as anyone on Wojo from an in-game coaching perspective this season (I went on a 10 minute rant about the last 5 and half minutes of the Providence game in the podcast) but the X game was good Wojo. X was running everything off the 3 point line, especially Markus and trying to defend him with length. So while Markus certainly tried to jack a couple of shots to keep them honest, he did most of his damage by going inside and outquicking the guards. That wasn't an accident that was Markus and staff taking what the other team gave them.
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On the FS postgame show, they lavished praise on the lead guards for MU and SH.
They included a graphic with stats while they were doing the gushing:
Markus 35 pts vs X on 12-27 shooting; Powell 29 pts vs Butler on 9-23 shooting.
I enjoy the FS1 postgame shows they do for all sports. Thing I hated about ESPN, you go to Sportscenter and it's nothing to start in what you were just watching.
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Very impressed with SyBoogie, kid is gonna be very good
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The way Markus played last night is a great example of both Markus and Wojo making adjustments that the fanbase seemingly doesn't credit or notice. I've been as hard as anyone on Wojo from an in-game coaching perspective this season (I went on a 10 minute rant about the last 5 and half minutes of the Providence game in the podcast) but the X game was good Wojo. X was running everything off the 3 point line, especially Markus and trying to defend him with length. So while Markus certainly tried to jack a couple of shots to keep them honest, he did most of his damage by going inside and outquicking the guards. That wasn't an accident that was Markus and staff taking what the other team gave them.
The inconsistency is really frustrating. I understand not all plans are going to work, but it seems like we get too much all or nothing. (Possibly just a fan perspective).
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Watched the game now. A lot of fun.
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The inconsistency is really frustrating. I understand not all plans are going to work, but it seems like we get too much all or nothing. (Possibly just a fan perspective).
It really depends, some Big East teams like Creighton or even Providence have length and athleticism some have one or the other in a player but not both like Georgetown, X, and MU. Markus is going to really struggle against long players that he can't out pace on the drive which forces even larger adjustments than we saw last night. Providence and Creighton are able to guard Markus 35 feet out all the way to the rim with their guards which limits him. That forces players like Bailey and Sacar to step up, some times they do, some times they don't.
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The biggest example of the change in focus/intensity for me was when Brendan attacked baseline for a dunk instead of settling for a corner 3 like he has in the past. An aggressive Bailey on the offensive end(ie attacking instead of always taking jumpers) would be a very key development for this team. BB can get to the hoop against other teams as well as shoot but he tends to hesitate on the drive for some reason. A slashing 4 could be a perfect salve on this teams occasional offensive woes.
Early in the game, he also had a very impressive drive from the wing to the middle, came to a jump stop and quickly put up and nailed a short floater. Very encouraging and would add another dimension to his game.
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The inconsistency is really frustrating. I understand not all plans are going to work, but it seems like we get too much all or nothing. (Possibly just a fan perspective).
With Wojo, I have come to the realization is that he isn’t going to make many adjustments within a game. He is a systems coach and his answer is perform better within the system. Buzz, Crean, Deane had base systems, but they would throw stuff out during the game.
That’s okay. Bo, K, Boheim and Knight are/were systems coaches. When Bo got down, his teams hardly ever got back into games. Others like Jay Wright will go all match-ups and will be working it from media time out to media time out. I think this is what bothers fans in the cuddles. Look at MU’s blow outs pro and con. When the system works, Wojo’s offenses have been some of the best in MU’s history...when not like at CU or SH, it is ugly trying to get back in it.
I mention this as whether you are a critical poster, the Hausers or the press, Wojo will generally make most of his adjustments in practices and not in a cuddle. It took Wojo all summer to rescheme his defense for example. To be consistent, he needs roster continuity like Bo, and that’s been a problem. That said, Coach K has learned recently, he needs to adapt more to the modern game...as has Gard.
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With Wojo, I have come to the realization is that he isn’t going to make many adjustments within a game. He is a systems coach and his answer is perform better within the system. Buzz, Crean, Deane had base systems, but they would throw stuff out during the game.
That’s okay. Bo, K, Boheim and Knight are/were systems coaches. When Bo got down, his teams hardly ever got back into games. Others like Jay Wright will go all match-ups and will be working it from media time out to media time out. I think this is what bothers fans in the cuddles. Look at MU’s blow outs pro and con. When the system works, Wojo’s offenses have been some of the best in MU’s history...when not like at CU or SH, it is ugly trying to get back in it.
I mention this as whether you are a critical poster, the Hausers or the press, Wojo will generally make most of his adjustments in practices and not in a cuddle. It took Wojo all summer to rescheme his defense for example. To be consistent, he needs roster continuity like Bo, and that’s been a problem. That said, Coach K has learned recently, he needs to adapt more to the modern game...as has Gard.
I don't totally agree with this. Wojo absolutely adjusts to match-ups and adapts schemes in game. Best example is the adjustment he made in the last two minutes of the Providence game to feature Sacar as primary ball handler and decoy with Howard. That's not standard scheme for them. Yes, he generally prefers his standard scheme but he's not above changing it. Another example, they've been featuring a lot more of Howard setting screens and having him pop off of them(especially back screens).
I agree with the defensive example you site, by and large that lack of change (IMHO) was driven not by a system stubbornness but that his personnel were best in that scheme as opposed to changing it. I disagreed with his opinion on the defensive scheme but that's one of many reasons why I'm not a head coach.
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Good conversation, Doc and mu03. Thanks.
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With Wojo, I have come to the realization is that he isn’t going to make many adjustments within a game. He is a systems coach and his answer is perform better within the system. Buzz, Crean, Deane had base systems, but they would throw stuff out during the game.
That’s okay. Bo, K, Boheim and Knight are/were systems coaches. When Bo got down, his teams hardly ever got back into games. Others like Jay Wright will go all match-ups and will be working it from media time out to media time out. I think this is what bothers fans in the cuddles. Look at MU’s blow outs pro and con. When the system works, Wojo’s offenses have been some of the best in MU’s history...when not like at CU or SH, it is ugly trying to get back in it.
I mention this as whether you are a critical poster, the Hausers or the press, Wojo will generally make most of his adjustments in practices and not in a cuddle. It took Wojo all summer to rescheme his defense for example. To be consistent, he needs roster continuity like Bo, and that’s been a problem. That said, Coach K has learned recently, he needs to adapt more to the modern game...as has Gard.
I take issue with one thing. Crean was more incapable than Wojo of making in game adjustments. Also, Crean has now shown that for nearly 20 years. Wojo may still grow out of it.
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I take issue with one thing. Crean was more incapable than Wojo of making in game adjustments. Also, Crean has now shown that for nearly 20 years. Wojo may still grow out of it.
This is extremely true.....Crean had a 500 page binder for a playbook and would call plays out of it.....he wasn't exactly scheming new concepts in the huddles either
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I don't totally agree with this. Wojo absolutely adjusts to match-ups and adapts schemes in game. Best example is the adjustment he made in the last two minutes of the Providence game to feature Sacar as primary ball handler and decoy with Howard. That's not standard scheme for them. Yes, he generally prefers his standard scheme but he's not above changing it. Another example, they've been featuring a lot more of Howard setting screens and having him pop off of them(especially back screens).
I agree with the defensive example you site, by and large that lack of change (IMHO) was driven not by a system stubbornness but that his personnel were best in that scheme as opposed to changing it. I disagreed with his opinion on the defensive scheme but that's one of many reasons why I'm not a head coach.
Yes, I should have said generally. As to plays out of time outs and inbounds plays, I do agree and I think Wojo is actually underrated on these situationals. Buzz was horrid, for example, with in-bounds plays from under the basket. And, I think Crean often overreacted to the point he got skunked out of time outs (see Stanford).
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This is extremely true.....Crean had a 500 page binder for a playbook and would call plays out of it.....he wasn't exactly scheming new concepts in the huddles either
I don’t disagree with you or Tower as our posts from the past contest. CTC thought frenetic activity, including pacing and Diet Coke swigs, would reverse the opponent’s momentum.
Here is how I would rate them:
Game prep: Crean (detail) followed by Buzz (innovative)
In-game and match-ups: Buzz/Deane
Systems: Wojo but paint touches brought a lot of wins.
Situationals: Mixed but all those OT games and wins, I have to net out on Buzz.
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I think "slow" or "reluctant" to adjust schemes during games would be more accurate than saying he doesn't do it. There have been occasions, for example, where he's broken out the 2-3 zone to good effect, like the comeback win over Creighton a couple of years ago or even against Maryland this season and made it closer for a bit.
Wish we saw more of that.
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Deane could scheme to keep the score in the 40's, which he needed to because his teams didn't score. He would burn a time out after the first made basket for the opponent. He would yank a guy (non-star) when his opponent scored. His stars got long run because he didn't have many scorers, but woe to the role player. Right, ners?
Crean had 3000 plays, but ran the weave almost all the time. His defensive adjustments were limited. Thought that since he didn't know how to attack a zone, nobody did. Clapping harder was his main defensive adjustment.
Buzz did have a creative mind. Showing Brad and Butler a zone they had never seen before in a tournament game. The driving and dishing of the midget team. Much of his success was bred upon finding guys with chips on their shoulders, either before they arrived or chips he put there. That same creative mind convinced him that it was time for him to fly.
Wojo, for better or worse, is still mostly bound by his Duke background. His personal background, that made him believe that (A) working harder was the answer (hey, he was defensive player of the year). And recruiting solves system flaws. Seriously, how many times has Duke won due to system, versus winning because they had phenomenal players? So far, still waiting for him to figure out how to do magic.
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I think "slow" or "reluctant" to adjust schemes during games would be more accurate than saying he doesn't do it. There have been occasions, for example, where he's broken out the 2-3 zone to good effect, like the comeback win over Creighton a couple of years ago or even against Maryland this season and made it closer for a bit.
Wish we saw more of that.
Agree on all counts. Maybe better to use the term “default position”?
I will give you an observation. Texas A&M, who lost all three Orlando games. Buzz never stopped coaching them, even until after the final whistle. He somehow kept the score close, even though they basically had no chance to win. At Creighton or Seton Hall, Wojo just sat down like Bo used to do when it was out of reach (where he doesn’t even have a seat on the bench reserved for him at FF).
Point being, coaches are (mostly) who they are. There are different ways to get there. When MU is running its offensive system, it’s a thing of beauty. When it’s not, we better hope the defense is.
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I don’t disagree with you or Tower as our posts from the past contest. CTC thought frenetic activity, including pacing and Diet Coke swigs, would reverse the opponent’s momentum.
Here is how I would rate them:
Game prep: Crean (detail) followed by Buzz (innovative)
In-game and match-ups: Buzz/Deane
Systems: Wojo but paint touches brought a lot of wins.
Situationals: Mixed but all those OT games and wins, I have to net out on Buzz.
Maybe it's quibbling but in-game Buzz was generally atrocious with ATO and other set plays. Yes he could adapt the general scheme within games, especially at half but god help him if he needed to get a bucket/stop a bucket out of ATO situations. Wojo is basically the inverse.
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This.
I guess some folks think it's impossible that the defensive gameplan was to invite a poor-shooting team to take 3s rather than go into the paint.
I wonder if they scouted from Creighton/Xavier tape. This is exactly how Creighton played them and they shot 5-26.
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Maybe it's quibbling but in-game Buzz was generally atrocious with ATO and other set plays. Yes he could adapt the general scheme within games, especially at half but god help him if he needed to get a bucket/stop a bucket out of ATO situations. Wojo is basically the inverse.
I mentioned that assessment in my other post, so no quibble. But, then there is Davidson, St. John’s, Cuse, etc. When Buzz was good he was very good. When he was bad out of time outs, especially under the basket, he was atrocious.
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Homer mentioned on the postgame show that all MU players that played (excluding the club trillion crew) had 3 or more rebounds. Symir even grabbed 4! That has to be one of the better rebounding efforts we've had in conference play in recent years, right?
Offensive rebounding, yes? Defensive, no, not at all. Only time we did worse was vs. Prov, and that was within 0.1%.
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This is where I'm at. Loved the win tonight. Fantastic game, moved the ball mostly really well. Bigs contributed big time. Zero to complain about. Hope Ed & Greg are back soon.
This all said, until we see some consistency from this team, it feels too much like fools gold to get overly excited...yet. But I was impressed tonight and hope we see more of this in the next game.
I really do believe this team is still finding its identity in BEast play with the Hausers gone. 60 minute a game from players in key roles is hard to replace. The Xavier game was another step forward in defining their identity. The absence of Greg and Ed further crystallized players roles. That's the silver lining people talk about.
The Match up and home court had something to do with the win, but guys seizing their chances to contribute was the key factor in the outcome.
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I don’t disagree with you or Tower as our posts from the past contest. CTC thought frenetic activity, including pacing and Diet Coke swigs, would reverse the opponent’s momentum.
Here is how I would rate them:
Game prep: Crean (detail) followed by Buzz (innovative)
In-game and match-ups: Buzz/Deane
Systems: Wojo but paint touches brought a lot of wins.
Situationals: Mixed but all those OT games and wins, I have to net out on Buzz.
Not necessarily quibbling with your conclusions, but OT records at MU:
Crean: 8-8
Buzz: 9-7
Wojo: 10-3
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Not necessarily quibbling with your conclusions, but OT records at MU:
Crean: 8-8
Buzz: 9-7
Wojo: 10-3
Quibble away.
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Not necessarily quibbling with your conclusions, but OT records at MU:
Crean: 8-8
Buzz: 9-7
Wojo: 10-3
Buzz was very good in OTs until his last year. That said, one could argue getting MU into six OTs starting in mid-January with that team could be considered great coaching? Especially, when certain posters said that Buzz was already trying to lose those games.
Wojo's OT record has been stellar, as noted. I wish one of those W's was the PC game where he wasn't with his situationals.
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Watched the game now. A lot of fun.
Just because you watched the game a day late does not absolve you of your obligation to post a summary complete with clever title. Give the people what they want!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpz81S7usvTIM8w/giphy.gif)
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1. Insipid cliche
2. Slightly pithy remark
3. Player x played well. See?
4. Ball was passed.
5. Defense was played.
6. Rebounding
7. Markus
8. Thumb injuries
9. Good to get a win.
10. I will probably not see the Georgetown game either.
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Buzz was very good in OTs until his last year. That said, one could argue getting MU into six OTs starting in mid-January with that team could be considered great coaching? Especially, when certain posters said that Buzz was already trying to lose those games.
Wojo's OT record has been stellar, as noted. I wish one of those W's was the PC game where he wasn't with his situationals.
I’ve read a number of posters here say he was not trying to show the administration who was boss...which is odd because he also publicly pleaded for a NIT berth.
Those two don’t align.
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Wojo's OT record has been stellar, as noted. I wish one of those W's was the PC game where he wasn't with his situationals.
Wouldn't have gone to OT if he'd handled his situationals better.
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25% three shooter hit a contested 3. Sometimes, it just ain't your day.
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25% three shooter hit a contested 3. Sometimes, it just ain't your day.
Right, but Wojo couldn't have known before Providence inbounded the ball that it would end up in the hands of a 25% three-point shooter who was fairly well-guarded.
The safe and smart play there is to foul and take your chances on rebounding a missed free throw (the OR% on a free throw is below 15% ... which is better for MU than a 25% three-point shooter).
Look, I've been more projo than nojo, but that was a big mistake.
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25% three shooter hit a contested 3. Sometimes, it just ain't your day.
Yeah, but it was the worst coaching decision in the history of CBB, and likely cost Marquette its shot at the NCAA title this year.
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I have seen and participated in the arguments about fouling while up 3. I have seen the data. And, while it felt different, MU out rebounded Providence that game and could have put two bigs in the lane to corral an intentional miss. I get it, I understand it. Providence had not made crap from distance the whole second half. Wojo rolled the dice and lost. I seem to recall him discussing it and saying he would make up his mind based on the situation. He didn't this time and it bit him. But in the end, a 25% 3 pt shooter hit a contested prayer.
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Right, but Wojo couldn't have known before Providence inbounded the ball that it would end up in the hands of a 25% three-point shooter who was fairly well-guarded.
The safe and smart play there is to foul and take your chances on rebounding a missed free throw (the OR% on a free throw is below 15% ... which is better for MU than a 25% three-point shooter).
Look, I've been more projo than nojo, but that was a big mistake.
I actually wasn't able to watch the end of the Providence game so I don't know for sure, but didn't Providence's possession start with about 20 seconds left? At that point it's obviously far too early to start fouling to avoid a three point shot, and once it gets down to 5-7 seconds left, do you really want your players looking at the clock deciding when to go foul, or just locked in trying to get a big stop down the stretch of a 3 point game? And sure, you could yell out to alert them to foul as a coach once it gets down to that little time left, but you're at home, play is on the other end of the court, hopefully your crowd is into it and loud, and if you then yell for your team to foul it'll take a second for the player to react and you risk letting a shooter get into a shooting motion and getting a 3 shot foul.
To me, under 5 seconds and the other team is inbounding the ball you foul them on the catch and send them to the line. If the situation played out as above (again, I don't know that's how it really played out, just thought I read that), I can understand not fouling in that situation.
Also, if you go 2 bigs in the paint to get a rebound on the free throw after fouling with the 7 seconds left on the clock (if he was getting the shot off with 6 seconds left, you have to foul before then to have it be just a 2 shot foul), you're basically sending Theo or Jayce to the line up 2 with 6 seconds left. That could very easily be two missed free throws and six seconds left for your opponent to get down court and tie the game or win it.
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The shot went through the basket with just over 4 seconds left. So, he probably shot it contested with about 6+ seconds left.
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I have seen and participated in the arguments about fouling while up 3. I have seen the data. And, while it felt different, MU out rebounded Providence that game and could have put two bigs in the lane to corral an intentional miss. I get it, I understand it. Providence had not made crap from distance the whole second half. Wojo rolled the dice and lost. I seem to recall him discussing it and saying he would make up his mind based on the situation. He didn't this time and it bit him. But in the end, a 25% 3 pt shooter hit a contested prayer.
As someone generally sympathetic to Wojo, his post-game for Providence was atrocious around the fouling up 3 as was his situational coaching in the last 5.5 minutes of that game. He stated that fouling with 19 seconds left was too much time, which is true but once the clock got under 7 seconds with the ball in the front court it was absolutely the right time to foul before Providence even initiated offense.
I'm prefacing this list by saying Wojo is typically very good with his situationals which is why I noticed all of these. Also they interestingly increase in brain cramp level so maybe Wojo just had a really bad day:
1. Does not foul while up 3 with the ball in the front court and under 7 seconds
2. Providence ties with 4 seconds left and Wojo calls a TO with 2 seniors and 2 juniors on the court. Gives Providence the chance to set their D instead of letting the greatest scorer in MU history try to create in a frantic situation
3. BB goes to the line shooting 3 FTs to tie and the following series of brain cramps happen
a. Wojo chooses to sub in McEwen for.....reasons, essentially icing his own shooter with one FT to go
b. Wojo chooses not to sub his best rebounders INTO the game leaving Sacar and Cain as the primary rebounders on a must get rebound if BB misses
c. Seemingly forgets to remind Cain and Sacar to foul if they don't get the rebound and Cain forget which bleeds 3 seconds off the clock (probably nitpicky because Cain should just know that but....didn't somehow)
4. With Providence at the line with 1.7 seconds on the clock likely to miss the 2nd FT intentionally Wojo calls his last time out virtually assuring there will be no shot to win
Like I said, it was abnormal for Wojo but that's about the worst collection of coaching fails I've seen in a while.
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I actually wasn't able to watch the end of the Providence game so I don't know for sure, but didn't Providence's possession start with about 20 seconds left? At that point it's obviously far too early to start fouling to avoid a three point shot, and once it gets down to 5-7 seconds left, do you really want your players looking at the clock deciding when to go foul, or just locked in trying to get a big stop down the stretch of a 3 point game? And sure, you could yell out to alert them to foul as a coach once it gets down to that little time left, but you're at home, play is on the other end of the court, hopefully your crowd is into it and loud, and if you then yell for your team to foul it'll take a second for the player to react and you risk letting a shooter get into a shooting motion and getting a 3 shot foul.
To me, under 5 seconds and the other team is inbounding the ball you foul them on the catch and send them to the line. If the situation played out as above (again, I don't know that's how it really played out, just thought I read that), I can understand not fouling in that situation.
Also, if you go 2 bigs in the paint to get a rebound on the free throw after fouling with the 7 seconds left on the clock (if he was getting the shot off with 6 seconds left, you have to foul before then to have it be just a 2 shot foul), you're basically sending Theo or Jayce to the line up 2 with 6 seconds left. That could very easily be two missed free throws and six seconds left for your opponent to get down court and tie the game or win it.
Providence initiated the offense with 11 seconds left and the shooter wasn't in position to shoot until 6.1 seconds. In fact, they were doing nothing with the ball until the pass to Reeves....McEwen could have easily fouled with under 7 seconds left
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Providence initiated the offense with 11 seconds left and the shooter wasn't in position to shoot until 6.1 seconds. In fact, they were doing nothing with the ball until the pass to Reeves....McEwen could have easily fouled with under 7 seconds left
Nova fouled the other night at 6.4 left. Got fouled on the inbound. Sunk those FTs. And then Nova fouled again with a tick less than two seconds after DePaul dribbled past half court.
Could have backfired but Jay and Nova obviously had their rules in place on what to do.
On Wojo, fouling or not can be debated. His time out is not debatable.
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As someone generally sympathetic to Wojo, his post-game for Providence was atrocious around the fouling up 3 as was his situational coaching in the last 5.5 minutes of that game. He stated that fouling with 19 seconds left was too much time, which is true but once the clock got under 7 seconds with the ball in the front court it was absolutely the right time to foul before Providence even initiated offense.
I'm prefacing this list by saying Wojo is typically very good with his situationals which is why I noticed all of these. Also they interestingly increase in brain cramp level so maybe Wojo just had a really bad day:
1. Does not foul while up 3 with the ball in the front court and under 7 seconds
2. Providence ties with 4 seconds left and Wojo calls a TO with 2 seniors and 2 juniors on the court. Gives Providence the chance to set their D instead of letting the greatest scorer in MU history try to create in a frantic situation
3. BB goes to the line shooting 3 FTs to tie and the following series of brain cramps happen
a. Wojo chooses to sub in McEwen for.....reasons, essentially icing his own shooter with one FT to go
b. Wojo chooses not to sub his best rebounders INTO the game leaving Sacar and Cain as the primary rebounders on a must get rebound if BB misses
c. Seemingly forgets to remind Cain and Sacar to foul if they don't get the rebound and Cain forget which bleeds 3 seconds off the clock (probably nitpicky because Cain should just know that but....didn't somehow)
4. With Providence at the line with 1.7 seconds on the clock likely to miss the 2nd FT intentionally Wojo calls his last time out virtually assuring there will be no shot to win
Like I said, it was abnormal for Wojo but that's about the worst collection of coaching fails I've seen in a while.
This is a great summation. Terrible coaching at the end of the game. No question.
For the record I am neither Pro nor No Wojo.
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This is a great summation. Terrible coaching at the end of the game. No question.
For the record I am neither Pro nor No Wojo.
The only one that is clearly bad is number 4. I’d guess over 50% of college coaches do not foul in situation 1, probably just about 50% let them play vs. take the time out in situation 2, the free throw complaint makes absolutely 0 sense to me, there’s a break in action between free throws no matter what and you’re only allowed to sub after the second to last free throw attempt, Wojo is preparing his defense for a tie game and wants his best perimeter defender in the game to press up. The timeout between free throws was the bad move.
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As someone generally sympathetic to Wojo, his post-game for Providence was atrocious around the fouling up 3 as was his situational coaching in the last 5.5 minutes of that game. He stated that fouling with 19 seconds left was too much time, which is true but once the clock got under 7 seconds with the ball in the front court it was absolutely the right time to foul before Providence even initiated offense.
I'm prefacing this list by saying Wojo is typically very good with his situationals which is why I noticed all of these. Also they interestingly increase in brain cramp level so maybe Wojo just had a really bad day:
1. Does not foul while up 3 with the ball in the front court and under 7 seconds
2. Providence ties with 4 seconds left and Wojo calls a TO with 2 seniors and 2 juniors on the court. Gives Providence the chance to set their D instead of letting the greatest scorer in MU history try to create in a frantic situation
3. BB goes to the line shooting 3 FTs to tie and the following series of brain cramps happen
a. Wojo chooses to sub in McEwen for.....reasons, essentially icing his own shooter with one FT to go
b. Wojo chooses not to sub his best rebounders INTO the game leaving Sacar and Cain as the primary rebounders on a must get rebound if BB misses
c. Seemingly forgets to remind Cain and Sacar to foul if they don't get the rebound and Cain forget which bleeds 3 seconds off the clock (probably nitpicky because Cain should just know that but....didn't somehow)
4. With Providence at the line with 1.7 seconds on the clock likely to miss the 2nd FT intentionally Wojo calls his last time out virtually assuring there will be no shot to win
Like I said, it was abnormal for Wojo but that's about the worst collection of coaching fails I've seen in a while.
Mountain meet molehill.
Tower explained the end of regulation three point fouling rationale and the odds were negligible either way.
The rest is even more subjective.
Second guessing Wojos decisions is one thing, but declaring them "about the worst collection of coaching fails I've seen in a while" seems a bit much.
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1. Insipid cliche
2. Slightly pithy remark
3. Player x played well. See?
4. Ball was passed.
5. Defense was played.
6. Rebounding
7. Markus
8. Thumb injuries
9. Good to get a win.
10. I will probably not see the Georgetown game either.
Well, can't say you didn't produce! Well Done!
(https://i.imgur.com/kMLCetc.png)
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“ I thought Jayce was a big difference maker….knocked Tyree off his spot down low..”
Xavier Head Coach Travis Steele
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As someone generally sympathetic to Wojo, his post-game for Providence was atrocious around the fouling up 3 as was his situational coaching in the last 5.5 minutes of that game. He stated that fouling with 19 seconds left was too much time, which is true but once the clock got under 7 seconds with the ball in the front court it was absolutely the right time to foul before Providence even initiated offense.
I'm prefacing this list by saying Wojo is typically very good with his situationals which is why I noticed all of these. Also they interestingly increase in brain cramp level so maybe Wojo just had a really bad day:
1. Does not foul while up 3 with the ball in the front court and under 7 seconds
2. Providence ties with 4 seconds left and Wojo calls a TO with 2 seniors and 2 juniors on the court. Gives Providence the chance to set their D instead of letting the greatest scorer in MU history try to create in a frantic situation
3. BB goes to the line shooting 3 FTs to tie and the following series of brain cramps happen
a. Wojo chooses to sub in McEwen for.....reasons, essentially icing his own shooter with one FT to go
b. Wojo chooses not to sub his best rebounders INTO the game leaving Sacar and Cain as the primary rebounders on a must get rebound if BB misses
c. Seemingly forgets to remind Cain and Sacar to foul if they don't get the rebound and Cain forget which bleeds 3 seconds off the clock (probably nitpicky because Cain should just know that but....didn't somehow)
4. With Providence at the line with 1.7 seconds on the clock likely to miss the 2nd FT intentionally Wojo calls his last time out virtually assuring there will be no shot to win
Like I said, it was abnormal for Wojo but that's about the worst collection of coaching fails I've seen in a while.
1. I would have liked to foul up 3 with about 7 seconds left, but there are plenty of coaches -- HoF coaches -- who don't do it. If it's a "no-brainer" (you didn't use that word, but others have) then Majerus, Calipari and several others have no brains.
2. I also would have rather let them go without a time-out, but as wades said, as many coaches (including, again, very good ones) will call a time-out there. My beef is actually with the players because it looked like we had a shot at a good play -- McEwen was inbounding and Markus had curled around and was actually open going toward our offensive goal. Hit Markus on the run, and he has a chance to get off a real nice shot in rhythm, maybe something similar (or even better) than the one Junior took vs UConn.
3. My thought was that he iced BB, too, but you do have to get your men on the floor. I have no problem with the rebounders he chose. If he forgot to remind the team they needed to foul on a miss, that's bad.
4. Bad coaching, for sure. I yelled at the TV when he called that time-out. At that moment, we went from having very little chance to having zero chance.
So I'm not as disappointed with that entire sequence as you are, but he definitely had chances to give us a better shot at winning. I will say that if McEwen had hit Markus in stride there and Markus had swished a 27-footer to win, folks would have praising Wojo for the play he drew up. Well ... at least some folks would have ... others would have criticized him because it wasn't the play they would have drawn up, as at the end of regulation at Creighton last season.
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I had not seen this addressed anywhere else and frankly I didn't want to start a whole new thread on just this topic so I figured the game recap fits as well as any.
What about the booing last night once Wojo was announced? I'm 44, have been a STH since the KO era. I cannot remember anything like what I heard.
That had to be a shock to Lovell and Scholl. I missed the Nova game. Was it similar? Frankly I found it a little jarring. Glad the team won in the fashion they did. I'm not a ProJo but I don't want to have the end of this season turning into a Philly sporting event.
(and yes I am on the record that coaching in front of thousands booing is better than being Patrick Baldwin and coaching in front of dozens clapping)
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I really doubt it was a “shock” to Lovell and Scholl.
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I really doubt it was a “shock” to Lovell and Scholl.
Especially since it happened before.
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I had not seen this addressed anywhere else and frankly I didn't want to start a whole new thread on just this topic so I figured the game recap fits as well as any.
What about the booing last night once Wojo was announced? I'm 44, have been a STH since the KO era. I cannot remember anything like what I heard.
That had to be a shock to Lovell and Scholl. I missed the Nova game. Was it similar? Frankly I found it a little jarring. Glad the team won in the fashion they did. I'm not a ProJo but I don't want to have the end of this season turning into a Philly sporting event.
(and yes I am on the record that coaching in front of thousands booing is better than being Patrick Baldwin and coaching in front of dozens clapping)
Some people may be in for a rude awakening for they may get what they wish for.
I also think the Milwaukee sports fan is feeling a bit more jacked these days than they have for most of the last 40 years and so they are acting stupidly.
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Some people may be in for a rude awakening for they may get what they wish for.
Wait, Buzz is returning? I missed that.
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Some people may be in for a rude awakening for they may get what they wish for.
Well said. MU fans are the biggest bunch of self entitled, basketball idiots in the country.
Until MU commits to spend something close to what other top 100 programs do, until MU finds a halfway decent place to play games and until MU has something better than the current crappy practice facility, dumbass MU fans should kiss the ground Wojo walks on because MU will NEVER find a coach as good as Wojo.
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Well said. MU fans are the biggest bunch of self entitled, basketball idiots in the country.
Until MU commits to spend something close to what other top 100 programs do, until MU finds a halfway decent place to play games and until MU has something better than the current crappy practice facility, dumbass MU fans should kiss the ground Wojo walks on because MU will NEVER find a coach as good as Wojo.
It’s odd how major football powers in major conferences, huge alumni bases have it all...fired their coach and cannot get back to the level they hated and fired the first coach for. Same for some basketball schools. But we’ll ignore that I guess....because MU’s hiring track record for head coaches is rocking at 100%.
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It’s odd how major football powers in major conferences, huge alumni bases have it all...fired their coach and cannot get back to the level they hated and fired the first coach for. Same for some basketball schools. But we’ll ignore that I guess....because MU’s hiring track record for head coaches is rocking at 100%.
LSU endorses this message.
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LSU endorses this message.
LOL....great proxy for MU. LOL
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LSU endorses this message.
So does UK
and,
Florida State
Villanova
Miami
UNC
Alabama
USC
Michigan
Florida
Minnesota
ASU
ect.
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LOL....great proxy for MU. LOL
Your words..."major football powers in major conferences, huge alumni bases have it all"
Your right, that's not LSU at all. LSU did a great job for being a small school from the MWC.
Own your own post.
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So does UK
and,
Florida State
Villanova
Miami
UNC
Alabama
USC
Michigan
Florida
Minnesota
ASU
ect.
You may want to review your history again with that list. And oh by the way, all of them more prestigious than MU athletically, more money, etc.
While you are at it, make sure to look at Tennessee football, UCLA basketball, etc.
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I really doubt it was a “shock” to Lovell and Scholl.
In hunkydory-land, I bet it was a shock. I mean unless Doc Rivers is blowing up their phone everyday booing.
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You may want to review your history again with that list. And oh by the way, all of them more prestigious than MU athletically, more money, etc.
While you are at it, make sure to look at Tennessee football, UCLA basketball, etc.
Please go read YOUR OWN post!
BTW, I've very comfortable with the list I provided.
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Your words..."major football powers in major conferences, huge alumni bases have it all"
Your right, that's not LSU at all. LSU did a great job for being a small school from the MWC.
Own your own post.
LOL...I do. I didn’t say all, nor implied it. Examples like Tennessee, UCLA, etc, run off a coach and take years, decades to recover. Be careful what you wish for, especially with a school like MU. Resources are not unlimited.
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It’s odd how major football powers in major conferences, huge alumni bases have it all...fired their coach and cannot get back to the level they hated and fired the first coach for. Same for some basketball schools. But we’ll ignore that I guess....because MU’s hiring track record for head coaches is rocking at 100%.
Actually it’s nearly 100%
KO - S16
Deane - 100 wins in 5 years
TC - Final Four
Buzz - 2nd best coach in MU history
Wojo - well we cant all be perfect
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LOL...I do. I didn’t say all, nor implied it. Examples like Tennessee, UCLA, etc, run off a coach and take years, decades to recover. Be careful what you wish for, especially with a school like MU. Resources are not unlimited.
LOL... So what's your point? Sometimes schools get it right and move on from somewhat successful coaches to better coaches and sometimes they don't?
I guess your point is MU's AD and leadership can not be trusted to find a better coach than Wojo.
We can have an honest disagreement about that position.
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Actually it’s nearly 100%
KO - S16
Deane - 100 wins in 5 years
TC - Final Four
Buzz - 2nd best coach in MU history
Wojo - well we cant all be perfect
Hank Raymonds ( should have gone outside the family)
Rick Majerus (not ready)
Bob Dukiet
Deane was going the wrong way with no hope on recovery
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LOL... So what's your point? Sometimes schools get it right and move on from somewhat successful coaches to better coaches and sometimes they don't?
I guess your point is MU's AD and leadership can not be trusted to find a better coach than Wojo.
We can have an honest disagreement about that position.
That’s exactly my point, be careful what you wish for because as our own hiring history has shown you can go backwards or lose a ton of years in search of your unicorn. That may be a risk worth taking, I don’t think it is currently.
My point is I don’t want to start over again, but feel free to boo loudly at the next game all you wish. Amerika
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That’s exactly my point, be careful what you wish for because as our own hiring history has shown you can go backwards or lose a ton of years in search of your unicorn. That may be a risk worth taking, I don’t think it is currently.
My point is I don’t want to start over again, but feel free to boo loudly at the next game all you wish. Amerika
Fair enough. Sorry you have such little faith in MU and what it offers.
For the record, I supported Wojo's extension, I don't want him fired and I would not boo Wojo.
I'm PRO-MU!!
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Hank Raymonds ( should have gone outside the family)
Rick Majerus (not ready)
Bob Dukiet
Deane was going the wrong way with no hope on recovery
The modern era of MU hoops was started when we hired KO. We reset expectations then. For instance, coaches could claim 100 wins in 5 years and still be fired. We held those same expectations as we fired Buzz for missing the tourney and going 9-9 in conference. Somehow in the transition of power at Gesu, Wild forgot to instruct Lovell on the same expectations. Maybe the booing will instruct him.
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Fair enough. Sorry you have such little faith in MU and what it offers.
For the record, I supported Wojo's extension, I don't want him fired and I would not boo Wojo.
I'm PRO-MU!!
It’s not a matter of faith, it’s a matter of who is going to MU. Head coaches aren’t and has been proven time and time again. On the rare occasion we do, we get Deane and Dukiet...guys not used to recruiting high level players. Therefore it is a roll of the dice with assistants. That’s tough to get right consistent,y, I don’t care who is in the administration. And on the chance we get a good one,..they don’t stay around that long.
I’m PRO MU, too. I’m also pragmatic and a study of history. Until MU bucks our own trend, that’s what I’m going by. Has Scholl ever hired a major sport coach as an AD? Will they go to an outside agency...many of which have been less than stellar with their recommendations. I worked there when we let Deane go and hired Crean. You make a bad hire and you are one additional hire away from going on a 8 to 10 year run of crap....it can happen and a school like MU will take longer to get out of it than a big state school.
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The modern era of MU hoops was started when we hired KO. We reset expectations then. For instance, coaches could claim 100 wins in 5 years and still be fired. We held those same expectations as we fired Buzz for missing the tourney and going 9-9 in conference. Somehow in the transition of power at Gesu, Wild forgot to instruct Lovell on the same expectations. Maybe the booing will instruct him.
That’s a convenient starting point.
It made me laugh that Buzz was fired comment...the transition of power said the new sheriff had to own a set of ethical standards in addition to winning games. Maybe the booing will land him an extension. Some of the boomers still pissed the b-ball coach doesn’t drink with them after games at the local bars...they can boo all they want.
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The modern era of MU hoops was started when we hired KO. We reset expectations then. For instance, coaches could claim 100 wins in 5 years and still be fired. We held those same expectations as we fired Buzz for missing the tourney and going 9-9 in conference. Somehow in the transition of power at Gesu, Wild forgot to instruct Lovell on the same expectations. Maybe the booing will instruct him.
Because 12-6 < 9-9 and a 5 seed last year = missing the tournament
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Because 12-6 < 9-9 and a 5 seed last year = missing the tournament
I have to admit, the effort is amazing. What time is it where you are? Are you planning on keeping pace?
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That’s a convenient starting point.
It made me laugh that Buzz was fired comment...the transition of power said the new sheriff had to own a set of ethical standards in addition to winning games. Maybe the booing will land him an extension. Some of the boomers still pissed the b-ball coach doesn’t drink with them after games at the local bars...they can boo all they want.
Your out of your league dude. You post some wicked bullsh#t.
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Your out of your league dude. You post some wicked bullsh#t.
Please show me how I am out of my league...you think Buzz was fired from MU? LOL. No he wasn’t. You think Wojo was allowed the same lax options of his predecessor? LOL. Nope. Where am I out of my league on this?
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That’s a convenient starting point.
It made me laugh that Buzz was fired comment...the transition of power said the new sheriff had to own a set of ethical standards in addition to winning games. Maybe the booing will land him an extension. Some of the boomers still pissed the b-ball coach doesn’t drink with them after games at the local bars...they can boo all they want.
The coach hasn’t drank with them in 20 years. We’re over that. We adjusted just fine to Sweet Tea & Sweet 16s.
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I have to admit, the effort is amazing. What time is it where you are? Are you planning on keeping pace?
I posted in one of the topics I started that I was required to write thousands of detailed reports in my position at work so snapping off a short, by my standards, reply is really nothing to me.
I'm also motivated AF by the "fans" who trash Wojo and the players. This season and recruiting class are critical to the future of the program IMHO and that has me fired up. Securing a tournament bid and locking up Mane would go a long way in increasing my chill factor.
People that advise me not to engage don't know me very well.
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What about the booing last night once Wojo was announced? I'm 44, have been a STH since the KO era. I cannot remember anything like what I heard.
That had to be a shock to Lovell and Scholl. I missed the Nova game. Was it similar? Frankly I found it a little jarring. Glad the team won in the fashion they did. I'm not a ProJo but I don't want to have the end of this season turning into a Philly sporting event.
I was saying Woooooooooooojo
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The modern era of MU hoops was started when we hired KO. We reset expectations then. For instance, coaches could claim 100 wins in 5 years and still be fired. We held those same expectations as we fired Buzz for missing the tourney and going 9-9 in conference. Somehow in the transition of power at Gesu, Wild forgot to instruct Lovell on the same expectations. Maybe the booing will instruct him.
Buzz was fired?
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Buzz was fired?
Mike Deane was a success?
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Mike Deane was a success?
Who? He coached the competitive piano team right?
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Who? He coached the competitive piano team right?
That was Dukiet, No?
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I posted in one of the topics I started that I was required to write thousands of detailed reports in my position at work so snapping off a short, by my standards, reply is really nothing to me.
I'm also motivated AF by the "fans" who trash Wojo and the players. This season and recruiting class are critical to the future of the program IMHO and that has me fired up. Securing a tournament bid and locking up Mane would go a long way in increasing my chill factor.
People that advise me not to engage don't know me very well.
IMHO? nothing humble about you.
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The modern era of MU hoops was started when we hired KO. We reset expectations then. For instance, coaches could claim 100 wins in 5 years and still be fired. We held those same expectations as we fired Buzz for missing the tourney and going 9-9 in conference. Somehow in the transition of power at Gesu, Wild forgot to instruct Lovell on the same expectations. Maybe the booing will instruct him.
Huh?
Deane was fired for crappy recruiting, and trending way down. I'd rather Wojo's 97 wins in 5yrs in a major conference than Deanes 100 in a crap conference.
Also Buzz was not fired. Are you using your own "alternative facts"?
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It’s not a matter of faith, it’s a matter of who is going to MU. Head coaches aren’t and has been proven time and time again. On the rare occasion we do, we get Deane and Dukiet...guys not used to recruiting high level players. Therefore it is a roll of the dice with assistants. That’s tough to get right consistent,y, I don’t care who is in the administration. And on the chance we get a good one,..they don’t stay around that long.
I’m PRO MU, too. I’m also pragmatic and a study of history. Until MU bucks our own trend, that’s what I’m going by. Has Scholl ever hired a major sport coach as an AD? Will they go to an outside agency...many of which have been less than stellar with their recommendations. I worked there when we let Deane go and hired Crean. You make a bad hire and you are one additional hire away from going on a 8 to 10 year run of crap....it can happen and a school like MU will take longer to get out of it than a big state school.
Thanks for your negative opinions about MU.
I'll agree to disagree with you.
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I posted in one of the topics I started that I was required to write thousands of detailed reports in my position at work so snapping off a short, by my standards, reply is really nothing to me.
I'm also motivated AF by the "fans" who trash Wojo and the players. This season and recruiting class are critical to the future of the program IMHO and that has me fired up. Securing a tournament bid and locking up Mane would go a long way in increasing my chill factor.
People that advise me not to engage don't know me very well.
All good...and I probably agree with 75% of your stuff....I’m just enjoying the head explosions of false accusations by others here. Please, carry on.
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Thanks for your negative opinions about MU.
I'll agree to disagree with you.
Question for you, can you name a high profile successful head coach that MU lured to our school in the last 50 years that did well and wasn’t fired?
One more, can you name an assistant head coach we hired that stuck around for the long haul ....say10 years and didn’t jump ship over the last 50 years?
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Question for you, can you name a high profile successful head coach that MU lured to our school in the last 50 years that did well and wasn’t fired?
One more, can you name an assistant head coach we hired that stuck around for the long haul ....say10 years and didn’t jump ship over the last 50 years?
This to me gets at the heart of some of the angst in the fan base around Wojo and/or coaches generally. There is a lot of varying opinion as to what MU is as a coaching "destination" and I think a lot of it depends on what era of MU basketball one started to be a fan.
-Is it realistic that MU could hire a "full formed coach" from a power conference? (ie are we a step up from any non-blue bloods)
-Which is better, a head coach from a low level program or an assistant from a high level program?
-If we dip back into the HC hiring process, how do we know we'll do better than Wojo and/or the new HC would develop faster than Wojo is?
Back to the era piece, if one became a fan in the Buzz era, I can see how you would have a different perspective than if you came of age in the KO era or the Al era or even the Crean era. Same with any of the coaching era's, I think some of your fandom and expectations are formed based on the era that you started as a fan.
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This to me gets at the heart of some of the angst in the fan base around Wojo and/or coaches generally. There is a lot of varying opinion as to what MU is as a coaching "destination" and I think a lot of it depends on what era of MU basketball one started to be a fan.
-Is it realistic that MU could hire a "full formed coach" from a power conference? (ie are we a step up from any non-blue bloods)
-Which is better, a head coach from a low level program or an assistant from a high level program?
-If we dip back into the HC hiring process, how do we know we'll do better than Wojo and/or the new HC would develop faster than Wojo is?
Back to the era piece, if one became a fan in the Buzz era, I can see how you would have a different perspective than if you came of age in the KO era or the Al era or even the Crean era. Same with any of the coaching era's, I think some of your fandom and expectations are formed based on the era that you started as a fan.
Very reasoned response
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This to me gets at the heart of some of the angst in the fan base around Wojo and/or coaches generally. There is a lot of varying opinion as to what MU is as a coaching "destination" and I think a lot of it depends on what era of MU basketball one started to be a fan.
-Is it realistic that MU could hire a "full formed coach" from a power conference? (ie are we a step up from any non-blue bloods)
-Which is better, a head coach from a low level program or an assistant from a high level program?
-If we dip back into the HC hiring process, how do we know we'll do better than Wojo and/or the new HC would develop faster than Wojo is?
Back to the era piece, if one became a fan in the Buzz era, I can see how you would have a different perspective than if you came of age in the KO era or the Al era or even the Crean era. Same with any of the coaching era's, I think some of your fandom and expectations are formed based on the era that you started as a fan.
I became a fan from afar (way afar - Connecticut) during Al's last season and decided to go to MU about 2 weeks before Whitehead's elbow wrecked Hank's first NCAA tourney appearance. Started school the following fall, meaning I was there for the original Sam's two years and then Rivers' arrival.
So during my time as a fan, Marquette hired an assistant from within (who ended up having decent but disappointing results), another assistant from within (who didn't work out but went on to become a great coach elsewhere), a small-major coach (unmitigated disaster), Arizona's top assistant coach (who helped turn around the program but couldn't stand staying still), another small-major coach (who couldn't recruit and went out a loser), Michigan State's top assistant coach (who took us to the Final Four and mostly was good for the program but ultimately thought the grass was greener elsewhere), an assistant from within (who came closest to replicating Al's success but left in a huff due to philosophical differences with MU), and Duke's top assistant coach (grade: Incomplete).
I look at this from a pragmatic POV: As soon as Marquette shows it can and will hire an active, proven, P6 head coach who has had NCAA tournament success, I will actually believe Marquette can lure such a guy to our job.
I wish we could get that guy. Once Wojo's time is up, I hope we can. But I've been a Marquette fan for 40+ years and it hasn't happened yet.
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I became a fan from afar (way afar - Connecticut) during Al's last season and decided to go to MU about 2 weeks before Whitehead's elbow wrecked Hank's first NCAA tourney appearance. Started school the following fall, meaning I was there for the original Sam's two years and then Rivers' arrival.
So during my time as a fan, Marquette hired an assistant from within (who ended up having decent but disappointing results), another assistant from within (who didn't work out but went on to become a great coach elsewhere), a small-major coach (unmitigated disaster), Arizona's top assistant coach (who helped turn around the program but couldn't stand staying still), another small-major coach (who couldn't recruit and went out a loser), Michigan State's top assistant coach (who took us to the Final Four and mostly was good for the program but ultimately thought the grass was greener elsewhere), an assistant from within (who came closest to replicating Al's success but left in a huff due to philosophical differences with MU), and Duke's top assistant coach (grade: Incomplete).
I look at this from a pragmatic POV: As soon as Marquette shows it can and will hire an active, proven, P6 head coach who has had NCAA tournament success, I will actually believe Marquette can lure such a guy to our job.
I wish we could get that guy. Once Wojo's time is up, I hope we can. But I've been a Marquette fan for 40+ years and it hasn't happened yet.
Great perspective to keep in mind.
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I look at this from a pragmatic POV: As soon as Marquette shows it can and will hire an active, proven, P6 head coach who has had NCAA tournament success, I will actually believe Marquette can lure such a guy to our job.
I wish we could get that guy. Once Wojo's time is up, I hope we can. But I've been a Marquette fan for 40+ years and it hasn't happened yet.
Over the last 40-50 years, or however far back you want to go, how much consistency has their been in school and athletic department leadership, though? I've got to think that most ADs only hire one or two basketball coaches in their tenure. Most school presidents are probably in the same camp, maybe add one more hire to their list. So while the school may have a track record of doing things a certain way, who's to say that current leadership and powers-that-be would agree with the way things have been done in the past?
I don't see any reason why MU can't attract a successful head coach. The things I assume most coaches are looking for - resources, prestige/reputation, facilities, alumni support, etc. - is offered by Marquette. We're not Duke or Kansas, but I don't see any discernible difference between MU and schools like Villanova, Gonzaga, or Creighton. I'd say the MU job seems like it could be just as attractive as a Texas Tech or Virginia even. Outside of the blue bloods, what would set other schools apart from Marquette when it comes to attracting a basketball coach?
Why couldn't we go out and make a pitch for a guy like Gregg Marshall or Randy Bennett who have proven themselves as head coaches and built strong programs in smaller conferences? I would even think we could attract P6 coaches who might be looking for a change. Maybe guys like Rick Barnes, Matt Painter, Chris Beard, Mark Turgeon would prefer to be at a basketball-first school. I've got to think MU could make a pretty convincing sales pitch to almost any coach in the country. I see no need to always look for the diamond in the rough assistant.
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Over the last 40-50 years, or however far back you want to go, how much consistency has their been in school and athletic department leadership, though? I've got to think that most ADs only hire one or two basketball coaches in their tenure. Most school presidents are probably in the same camp, maybe add one more hire to their list. So while the school may have a track record of doing things a certain way, who's to say that current leadership and powers-that-be would agree with the way things have been done in the past?
I don't see any reason why MU can't attract a successful head coach. The things I assume most coaches are looking for - resources, prestige/reputation, facilities, alumni support, etc. - is offered by Marquette. We're not Duke or Kansas, but I don't see any discernible difference between MU and schools like Villanova, Gonzaga, or Creighton. I'd say the MU job seems like it could be just as attractive as a Texas Tech or Virginia even. Outside of the blue bloods, what would set other schools apart from Marquette when it comes to attracting a basketball coach?
Why couldn't we go out and make a pitch for a guy like Gregg Marshall or Randy Bennett who have proven themselves as head coaches and built strong programs in smaller conferences? I would even think we could attract P6 coaches who might be looking for a change. Maybe guys like Rick Barnes, Matt Painter, Chris Beard, Mark Turgeon would prefer to be at a basketball-first school. I've got to think MU could make a pretty convincing sales pitch to almost any coach in the country. I see no need to always look for the diamond in the rough assistant.
I like to think you are right. Only time will tell until we see if you are. History suggests that is wishful thinking, but sometimes history does get changed. We'll see!
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This to me gets at the heart of some of the angst in the fan base around Wojo and/or coaches generally. There is a lot of varying opinion as to what MU is as a coaching "destination" and I think a lot of it depends on what era of MU basketball one started to be a fan.
-Is it realistic that MU could hire a "full formed coach" from a power conference? (ie are we a step up from any non-blue bloods)
-Which is better, a head coach from a low level program or an assistant from a high level program?
-If we dip back into the HC hiring process, how do we know we'll do better than Wojo and/or the new HC would develop faster than Wojo is?
Back to the era piece, if one became a fan in the Buzz era, I can see how you would have a different perspective than if you came of age in the KO era or the Al era or even the Crean era. Same with any of the coaching era's, I think some of your fandom and expectations are formed based on the era that you started as a fan.
Regardless of era, MU has been pretty consistent in where they look for a new head coach. We’ve hired 8 coaches post Al - zero from a power conference, 2 from low mid majors and 6 assistants. Of our low major head coaches, 1 was fair and 1 was a disaster. The most successful was the one assistant who had a year of HC experience (Buzz). The next best were assistants hired from major programs (KO and Crean). Hank was an assistant who should have stayed an assistant and Rick was an assistant who would have been great but who wasn’t ready. With Wojo the jury is still out but even the most hopeful must admit he didn’t arrive as ready as Buzz, KO or Crean in spite of a longer run as an assistant (under a Hall of Fame one at that).
So the evidence post Al says go with top notch assistants. That said, Al was a small college head coach who MU “rescued” from Belmont Abbey. So maybe the key is finding an “it” guy. Al had ”it” in spades. Buzz was the closest thing MU has seen since but was too quirky for some. KO and Rick had “it” too but were too self destructive (KO) or too inexperienced (Rick). The only guy without a big personality who has been successful at MU was TC. Wojo Is as white bread as they come, which (IMO) will make it tougher for him.
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Over the last 40-50 years, or however far back you want to go, how much consistency has their been in school and athletic department leadership, though? I've got to think that most ADs only hire one or two basketball coaches in their tenure. Most school presidents are probably in the same camp, maybe add one more hire to their list. So while the school may have a track record of doing things a certain way, who's to say that current leadership and powers-that-be would agree with the way things have been done in the past?
I don't see any reason why MU can't attract a successful head coach. The things I assume most coaches are looking for - resources, prestige/reputation, facilities, alumni support, etc. - is offered by Marquette. We're not Duke or Kansas, but I don't see any discernible difference between MU and schools like Villanova, Gonzaga, or Creighton. I'd say the MU job seems like it could be just as attractive as a Texas Tech or Virginia even. Outside of the blue bloods, what would set other schools apart from Marquette when it comes to attracting a basketball coach?
Why couldn't we go out and make a pitch for a guy like Gregg Marshall or Randy Bennett who have proven themselves as head coaches and built strong programs in smaller conferences? I would even think we could attract P6 coaches who might be looking for a change. Maybe guys like Rick Barnes, Matt Painter, Chris Beard, Mark Turgeon would prefer to be at a basketball-first school. I've got to think MU could make a pretty convincing sales pitch to almost any coach in the country. I see no need to always look for the diamond in the rough assistant.
MU went after guys like this in 2008 and again in 2014 and couldn't land them. Nobody's saying they couldn't try again, but history shows that where Marquette is on the college basketball landscape and where you think Marquette is on the college basketball landscape are not the same.
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MU went after guys like this in 2008 and again in 2014 and couldn't land them. Nobody's saying they couldn't try again, but history shows that where Marquette is on the college basketball landscape and where you think Marquette is on the college basketball landscape are not the same.
Sounds like we just need a better powerpoint.
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Question for you, can you name a high profile successful head coach that MU lured to our school in the last 50 years that did well and wasn’t fired?
One more, can you name an assistant head coach we hired that stuck around for the long haul ....say10 years and didn’t jump ship over the last 50 years?
You're completely missing my point.
MU should not and will not stick with an underperforming coach because they are too afraid to hire a new coach. This was proven with Deane.
I happen to trust MU to hire a qualified coach because they have a professional team in place to do so, and a hell of a lot to offer.
You, and some other, don't trust MU. I presume you have your own reason to believe they are incompetent to run a major college program.
There is no guaranty the new hire would work out. Every college and pro sports team has made poor hires, but the good organizations recognize the error and correct it.
That is my point. I don't expect this to change your opinion of MU, so we'll agree to disagree.
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Over the last 40-50 years, or however far back you want to go, how much consistency has their been in school and athletic department leadership, though? I've got to think that most ADs only hire one or two basketball coaches in their tenure. Most school presidents are probably in the same camp, maybe add one more hire to their list. So while the school may have a track record of doing things a certain way, who's to say that current leadership and powers-that-be would agree with the way things have been done in the past?
I don't see any reason why MU can't attract a successful head coach. The things I assume most coaches are looking for - resources, prestige/reputation, facilities, alumni support, etc. - is offered by Marquette. We're not Duke or Kansas, but I don't see any discernible difference between MU and schools like Villanova, Gonzaga, or Creighton. I'd say the MU job seems like it could be just as attractive as a Texas Tech or Virginia even. Outside of the blue bloods, what would set other schools apart from Marquette when it comes to attracting a basketball coach?
Why couldn't we go out and make a pitch for a guy like Gregg Marshall or Randy Bennett who have proven themselves as head coaches and built strong programs in smaller conferences? I would even think we could attract P6 coaches who might be looking for a change. Maybe guys like Rick Barnes, Matt Painter, Chris Beard, Mark Turgeon would prefer to be at a basketball-first school. I've got to think MU could make a pretty convincing sales pitch to almost any coach in the country. I see no need to always look for the diamond in the rough assistant.
The only coach that Bill Cords didn't hire since Dukiet was Buzz.
Also, Gregg Marshall hasn't been lured by anyone why should we hold MU to a higher standard? Another way to look at it......has there been a coach of the caliber we're debating that went somewhere as the same "level" as MU.
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Regardless of era, MU has been pretty consistent in where they look for a new head coach. We’ve hired 8 coaches post Al - zero from a power conference, 2 from low mid majors and 6 assistants. Of our low major head coaches, 1 was fair and 1 was a disaster. The most successful was the one assistant who had a year of HC experience (Buzz). The next best were assistants hired from major programs (KO and Crean). Hank was an assistant who should have stayed an assistant and Rick was an assistant who would have been great but who wasn’t ready. With Wojo the jury is still out but even the most hopeful must admit he didn’t arrive as ready as Buzz, KO or Crean in spite of a longer run as an assistant (under a Hall of Fame one at that).
So the evidence post Al says go with top notch assistants. That said, Al was a small college head coach who MU “rescued” from Belmont Abbey. So maybe the key is finding an “it” guy. Al had ”it” in spades. Buzz was the closest thing MU has seen since but was too quirky for some. KO and Rick had “it” too but were too self destructive (KO) or too inexperienced (Rick). The only guy without a big personality who has been successful at MU was TC. Wojo Is as white bread as they come, which (IMO) will make it tougher for him.
Good recap, Lenny.
The two most successful coaches in modern Marquette history were a guy hired from Belmont Abbey (where he went 13-39 his last two seasons) and a guy hired after one year as a head coach at New Orleans (where he went 14-17) and one year as an MU assistant.
There are some Scoopers -- probably even the majority -- who believe we should never, ever, ever, EVER settle for coaches with those kinds of resumes. Never, ever, ever, EVER!
History has shown that winning coaches come from all kinds of backgrounds. We just need to find the right one. We already have found a few, and I'm still hopeful Wojo will be one (but I admit I am not sold on him).
MU should not and will not stick with an underperforming coach because they are too afraid to hire a new coach.
Are you certain this is the only reason Marquette is sticking with Wojo? Is it possible they simply are pleased that the team won 24 games last season, has a top-10 recruiting class coming in next season, and has never had a sniff of any NCAA rules violations? Can you think of any school in the last 25 years that has fired a coach in a similar circumstance?
Maybe MU brass really does think Wojo is underperforming but won't fire him "because they are too afraid to hire a new coach," but I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that to be true.
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Good recap, Lenny.
The two most successful coaches in modern Marquette history were a guy hired from Belmont Abbey (where he went 13-39 his last two seasons) and a guy hired after one year as a head coach at New Orleans (where he went 14-17) and one year as an MU assistant.
Not to get this thread off track from arguing with everyone, but why WAS Al hired? It was before my time but I'm curious why a 13-39 coach from a tiny college was hired to take the reins?
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Not to get this thread off track from arguing with everyone, but why WAS Al hired? It was before my time but I'm curious why a 13-39 coach from a tiny college was hired to take the reins?
Pretty sure it was a dean smith recommendation
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Not to get this thread off track from arguing with everyone, but why WAS Al hired? It was before my time but I'm curious why a 13-39 coach from a tiny college was hired to take the reins?
Interesting read if you've got time. But according to this
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/69064672/fbi-gambling-investigation-al-mcguire-marquette-college-basketball
At the miniscule Belmont Abbey College in North Carolina, where McGuire spent seven seasons as head coach, his team's record plummeted from 24-3 in 1957-58 down to 6-18 in 1963-64. He was ready to do something, anything rather than coach college basketball. Yet when the Marquette position became available, McGuire received unsolicited letters of recommendation from the likes of Joe Lapchick of the New York Knicks and Walter Brown of the Boston Celtics. Soon enough, McGuire landed in Milwaukee to take control of the Warriors.
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Are you certain this is the only reason Marquette is sticking with Wojo? Is it possible they simply are pleased that the team won 24 games last season, has a top-10 recruiting class coming in next season, and has never had a sniff of any NCAA rules violations? Can you think of any school in the last 25 years that has fired a coach in a similar circumstance?
Maybe MU brass really does think Wojo is underperforming but won't fire him "because they are too afraid to hire a new coach," but I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that to be true.
Is that the reason they are sticking with Wojo? If you re-read my posts, it's the exact opposite. I believe in MU's AD, athletic department and leadership to keep Wojo or to fire him and get a great new coach.
I was responding the other who think Wojo is untouchable because MU incapable of finding a coach that could do better than Wojo.
I think/know MU still believes that Wojo can become the quality coach MU deserves. His extension, as modest as it was, is factual evidence to me. The extension also was evidence that MU is not fully sold on Wojo and not loving the on the court success that would warrant a big raise and a long term contract. IMO, MU is correct in their position, which shows the quality of the people in charge.
So, I think you and I are on the same page with Wojo's status.
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Is that the reason they are sticking with Wojo? If you re-read my posts, it's the exact opposite. I believe in MU's AD, athletic department and leadership to keep Wojo or to fire him and get a great new coach.
I was responding the other who think Wojo is untouchable because MU incapable of finding a coach that could do better than Wojo.
I think/know MU still believes that Wojo can become the quality coach MU deserves. His extension, as modest as it was, is factual evidence to me. The extension also was evidence that MU is not fully sold on Wojo and not loving the on the court success that would warrant a big raise and a long term contract. IMO, MU is correct in their position, which shows the quality of the people in charge.
So, I think you and I are on the same page with Wojo's status.
Seems like MU leadership is pretty reasonable in their evaluation and expectations of Wojo, and are cautiously optimistic that he is still the guy.
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Interesting read if you've got time. But according to this
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/69064672/fbi-gambling-investigation-al-mcguire-marquette-college-basketball
Thanks!
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LOL... So what's your point? Sometimes schools get it right and move on from somewhat successful coaches to better coaches and sometimes they don't?
I guess your point is MU's AD and leadership can not be trusted to find a better coach than Wojo.
We can have an honest disagreement about that position.
I am not sure why, but good experienced coaches do not want to coach at MU.
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I am not sure why, but good experienced coaches do not want to coach at MU.
I want to say it's because they saw what they would be stepping into in 2014.
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I want to say it's because they saw what they would be stepping into in 2014.
So what does that make Wojo?
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So what does that make Wojo?
The best choice?
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I don't get this take. Why can't you enjoy a great performance by a team that has been hammered for the past two weeks by "fans"? I mean, if you are going to rip a team, people should come out and compliment these guys for showing up and putting on a great performance.
Instead its, "you guys collapsed last year, I'm not going to cheer you on".
I think you assume too much. I always cheer for Marquette. I always hope they will win and I hope Wojo becomes a legend. I also believe this and the Villanova games were outstanding wins. The problem is we need to be consistently good. That is what it takes to live up to my expectations. I hope they succeed.
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Is that the reason they are sticking with Wojo? If you re-read my posts, it's the exact opposite. I believe in MU's AD, athletic department and leadership to keep Wojo or to fire him and get a great new coach.
I was responding the other who think Wojo is untouchable because MU incapable of finding a coach that could do better than Wojo.
I think/know MU still believes that Wojo can become the quality coach MU deserves. His extension, as modest as it was, is factual evidence to me. The extension also was evidence that MU is not fully sold on Wojo and not loving the on the court success that would warrant a big raise and a long term contract. IMO, MU is correct in their position, which shows the quality of the people in charge.
So, I think you and I are on the same page with Wojo's status.
Yessir. Thanks for expounding on your earlier post.
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Regardless of era, MU has been pretty consistent in where they look for a new head coach. We’ve hired 8 coaches post Al - zero from a power conference, 2 from low mid majors and 6 assistants. Of our low major head coaches, 1 was fair and 1 was a disaster. The most successful was the one assistant who had a year of HC experience (Buzz). The next best were assistants hired from major programs (KO and Crean). Hank was an assistant who should have stayed an assistant and Rick was an assistant who would have been great but who wasn’t ready. With Wojo the jury is still out but even the most hopeful must admit he didn’t arrive as ready as Buzz, KO or Crean in spite of a longer run as an assistant (under a Hall of Fame one at that).
So the evidence post Al says go with top notch assistants. That said, Al was a small college head coach who MU “rescued” from Belmont Abbey. So maybe the key is finding an “it” guy. Al had ”it” in spades. Buzz was the closest thing MU has seen since but was too quirky for some. KO and Rick had “it” too but were too self destructive (KO) or too inexperienced (Rick). The only guy without a big personality who has been successful at MU was TC. Wojo Is as white bread as they come, which (IMO) will make it tougher for him.
That’s where we ended up, but we have tried countless times to get an established coach from a brand school and failed every time.
We all get that you like eccentricity in your coaches. That’s fine. You hold, in my opinion, a bias against coaches that are more straight laced...again...that’s fine and your right to do it. Sometimes different personalities are required at different times. For the same reason sometimes a player’s coach is needed and sometimes an authoritarian is needed. Different situations can dictate that.
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I want to say it's because they saw what they would be stepping into in 2014.
The program (not the roster, the program) that Wojo inherited was better than any program a Marquette coach had inherited since Hank took over for Al. Great facilities, big budget, 8 NCAA appearances in 9 years, 2 S16s an an E8 in the last 4 years and a FF 11 years before. It (the program) has taken a step (or more) back under Wojo. Can he bring it back? Hope so.
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Over the last 40-50 years, or however far back you want to go, how much consistency has their been in school and athletic department leadership, though? I've got to think that most ADs only hire one or two basketball coaches in their tenure. Most school presidents are probably in the same camp, maybe add one more hire to their list. So while the school may have a track record of doing things a certain way, who's to say that current leadership and powers-that-be would agree with the way things have been done in the past?
I don't see any reason why MU can't attract a successful head coach. The things I assume most coaches are looking for - resources, prestige/reputation, facilities, alumni support, etc. - is offered by Marquette. We're not Duke or Kansas, but I don't see any discernible difference between MU and schools like Villanova, Gonzaga, or Creighton. I'd say the MU job seems like it could be just as attractive as a Texas Tech or Virginia even. Outside of the blue bloods, what would set other schools apart from Marquette when it comes to attracting a basketball coach?
Why couldn't we go out and make a pitch for a guy like Gregg Marshall or Randy Bennett who have proven themselves as head coaches and built strong programs in smaller conferences? I would even think we could attract P6 coaches who might be looking for a change. Maybe guys like Rick Barnes, Matt Painter, Chris Beard, Mark Turgeon would prefer to be at a basketball-first school. I've got to think MU could make a pretty convincing sales pitch to almost any coach in the country. I see no need to always look for the diamond in the rough assistant.
Everyone has pitched Gregg Marshall and he has said no. Randy Bennett the same. They have it great where they are, paid a lot in a conference that isn't a meat grinder. Turgeon...dirty. Beard, not leaving TT to go to MU. MP...same. This is the challenge.
The other challenge, if you get a guy too old in his career he will skate and not work for it.
This is why I FIRMLY believe if we want to be like Villanova or Gonzaga, like so many people here say we do....well then ACT LIKE THEM.
Jay Wright 18 years at Villanova
Mark Few 21 years at Gonzaga
Kevin Willard 10 years at Seton Hall
Gregg Marshall 13 years at Wichita State
Etc, etc
Let's notice the key...STABILITY. If you keep changing out then you have no stability. Now, I get it....what if he is a bad coach are you going to leave them there forever? No. And I'm sorry, Wojo might not be a great coach (yet...who knows), but he sure as hell isn't a bad coach.
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That’s where we ended up, but we have tried countless times to get an established coach from a brand school and failed every time.
We all get that you like eccentricity in your coaches. That’s fine. You hold, in my opinion, a bias against coaches that are more straight laced...again...that’s fine and your right to do it. Sometimes different personalities are required at different times. For the same reason sometimes a player’s coach is needed and sometimes an authoritarian is needed. Different situations can dictate that.
For many decades, the Jesuits had ethical hiring rules about plundering head coaches under contract at other schools. Dukiet and Deane were allowed as they were plucked from Jesuit schools. Al was from a Catholic school he gave clearance. Eddie Hickey came from SLU (Jesuit).
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You're completely missing my point.
MU should not and will not stick with an underperforming coach because they are too afraid to hire a new coach. This was proven with Deane.
I happen to trust MU to hire a qualified coach because they have a professional team in place to do so, and a hell of a lot to offer.
You, and some other, don't trust MU. I presume you have your own reason to believe they are incompetent to run a major college program.
There is no guaranty the new hire would work out. Every college and pro sports team has made poor hires, but the good organizations recognize the error and correct it.
That is my point. I don't expect this to change your opinion of MU, so we'll agree to disagree.
We agree, and Wojo and Deane are nowhere comparable in any way whatsoever.
I trust MU to make the best hire they can make. I am a pragmatist, and some of the suggestions people here want and think we can get is delusional. See above with names like Gregg Marshall, Matt Painter, Turgeon, etc. So when reality hits expectations, we can talk....based on years of reading expectations here and knowing they don't match any kind of reality on planet earth...that is why I say be careful what you wish for. Unicorn isn't walking through that door.
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So what does that make Wojo?
A young, hungry assistant coach trying to make his mark at a good program that is supported.
It's also a difficult job, a meat grinder conference shares a city with an NBA team (a plus and a minus), terrible weather, good academics and you are expected to do it the right way. That eliminates a lot of coaches RIGHT AWAY.
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That’s where we ended up, but we have tried countless times to get an established coach from a brand school and failed every time.
We all get that you like eccentricity in your coaches. That’s fine. You hold, in my opinion, a bias against coaches that are more straight laced...again...that’s fine and your right to do it. Sometimes different personalities are required at different times. For the same reason sometimes a player’s coach is needed and sometimes an authoritarian is needed. Different situations can dictate that.
Fair post. I don’t really have a bias against straight laced (i.e.,, boring, low in personality) coaches. They can work at a lot of places. But I would argue we haven’t seen that at Marquette. Al was always the coolest (and sometimes the craziest) guy in the room. KO and Buzz were outrageous but also inspirational. I didn’t care for TC (he has a creepiness that’s makes me uncomfortable), but I acknowledge that he had a big personality. Low personality/low key guys (Dean Smith, John Wooden) have been great at blue bloods but (Hank, Dukiet and to date Wojo) less than stellar here. I acknowledge that low key Mark Few has made it work at Gonzaga, but my preference for a little school like Marquette is a guy with a big personality
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For many decades, the Jesuits had ethical hiring rules about plundering head coaches under contract at other schools. Dukiet and Deane were allowed as they were plucked from Jesuit schools. Al was from a Catholic school he gave clearance. Eddie Hickey came from SLU (Jesuit).
That may be, but even getting a guy like Mike Newell only to have him back out after Rick quit in June. When we landed KO, there were some mid-tier head coaches in the mix, several of whom we likely couldn't get. Good news is that we are at least competitive with the offers now, we've been able to attract great assistant coaches from great programs....but with that comes the youth and inexperience of a guy learning on the job.
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Fair post. I don’t really have a bias against straight laced (i.e.,, boring, low in personality) coaches. They can work at a lot of places. But I would argue we haven’t seen that at Marquette. Al was always the coolest (and sometimes the craziest) guy in the room. KO and Buzz were outrageous but also inspirational. I didn’t care for TC (he has a creepiness that’s makes me uncomfortable), but I acknowledge that he had a big personality. Low personality/low key guys (Dean Smith, John Wooden) have been great at blue bloods but (Hank, Dukiet and to date Wojo) less than stellar here. I acknowledge that low key Mark Few has made it work at Gonzaga, but my preference for a little school like Marquette is a guy with a big personality
Fair post. I think there will be times where that is required. I look at a guy like Craig Counsell....not a big personality, but genuine. That matters to me. Buzz, well...let's just say I'm not alone in thinking he was fake. Crean....fake. I don't get the fake vibe from Wojo, but some do. I get a "square" vibe or a vibe of a guy not super comfortable in his own skin....but believe he has made a lot of progress in that area. Guy started here in his mid 30's....this is a big job for someone that was in a very safe environment for 20 years to come out and be his own man.
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The program (not the roster, the program) that Wojo inherited was better than any program a Marquette coach had inherited since Hank took over for Al. Great facilities, big budget, 8 NCAA appearances in 9 years, 2 S16s an an E8 in the last 4 years and a FF 11 years before. It (the program) has taken a step (or more) back under Wojo. Can he bring it back? Hope so.
The programs finances and facilities were fine. The mandate to run a clean program, conference realignment, the roster you mentioned, and the fact that your only as good as your last season, we're all challenges Wojo was contending with when he was hired as a first time head coach. I suspect those challenges were the chief reason more high profile established head coaches didn't make themselves available.
Wojo was willing to take on those challenges, and was rewarded for the results he achieved with a modest extension that matched the results. If he wants to get another extension he will probably have to produce better results. With the recruits he has coming in, he just might get those results.
Hope so.
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the fact that your only as good as your last season.
If that’s a “fact”this year will mark the end for N Carolina. Just silly.
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The programs finances and facilities were fine. The mandate to run a clean program, conference realignment, the roster you mentioned, and the fact that your only as good as your last season, we're all challenges Wojo was contending with when he was hired as a first time head coach. I suspect those challenges were the chief reason more high profile established head coaches didn't make themselves available.
Marquette has never in my lifetime been able to hire a high profile established head coach. So the “why” is we are Marquette, not the minor or imagined challenges you mention.
Again, no doubt whatsoever, the PROGRAM Wojo inherited - facilities, financial commitment, recent successes was strong.
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The programs finances and facilities were fine. The mandate to run a clean program, conference realignment, the roster you mentioned, and the fact that your only as good as your last season, we're all challenges Wojo was contending with when he was hired as a first time head coach. I suspect those challenges were the chief reason more high profile established head coaches didn't make themselves available.
Wojo was willing to take on those challenges, and was rewarded for the results he achieved with a modest extension that matched the results. If he wants to get another extension he will probably have to produce better results. With the recruits he has coming in, he just might get those results.
Hope so.
Clean program, lol
All those NCAA sanctions, reduced scholarships, post season bans, banners that came down.
That God we cleaned that mess up.
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Clean program, lol
All those NCAA sanctions, reduced scholarships, post season bans, banners that came down.
That God we cleaned that mess up.
I obviously meant compared to Buzz.
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We agree, and Wojo and Deane are nowhere comparable in any way whatsoever.
I never compared Wojo to Deane. NEVER.
It's hard to take your post seriously when you don't read or purposely misrepresent my posts.
That said, I don't think we agree about MU and the people who work for MU. I like MU's athletic department and its ability to run a high major program. You don't think they are competent and can not hire a good coach; hence your position "be careful what you wish for".
You need to own your position. Have some backbone. You may be right.
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I obviously meant compared to Buzz.
Like Lens said, all those sanctions imposed, Big East championships nullified, NCAA tournament victories vacated, banners brought down from the rafters...oh...never happened after Buzz left? Never mind.
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I am not sure why, but good experienced coaches do not want to coach at MU.
I don't know why the discussion is about 'good experienced coaches' for MU's head coach.
Maybe MU does hire the 'good experienced coach' to replace Wojo, but maybe it's another assistant (MSU and KU and others did okay with that), maybe a lower division head coach, maybe an NBA assistant coach. Who knows where that coach will come from. The real question is: Do you trust MU to make the right choice?
There are some on this board who have zero trust that MU can make the right choice. I'm not one of them.
For those who think Wojo shouldn't be fired because there is no better alternative that will be hired by MU, you should seriously start a new movement to change MU's athletic department staff and AD. That is the more significant issue than Wojo.
(agin, for the record I supported Wojo's extension and don't want him fired)
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Marquette has never in my lifetime been able to hire a high profile established head coach. So the “why” is we are Marquette, not the minor or imagined challenges you mention.
Again, no doubt whatsoever, the PROGRAM Wojo inherited - facilities, financial commitment, recent successes was strong.
I listed what I felt were reasonable challenges that might cause a high profile head coach to avoid Marquette. I suspect that in the past, outside of Hank, all the candidates for HC in the past faced similar challenges and the ones that got the job were willing to accept those challenges. They were also the challenges that Wojo accepted.
The most recent success Wojo inherited from Buzz was a 17-15 record, no post season tournament and a depleted roster. Wojo also dealt with the aftermath of conference realignment, which coincidentally concluded in 2013.
He lead Marquette back to near Buzz level success last season, with a second place finish in the BEast and a 5 seed in the tournament. Everyone knows how the season ended but that doesn't erase the regular season success.
With a record nearly identical to last season at this point, this seasons ultimate success has yet to be determined. Considering the challenges Wojo faces with the Hausers and Ed bailing on the team, and a tough conference schedule still ahead, a tournament bid would be quite an accomplishment.
Hope so.
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Like Lens said, all those sanctions imposed, Big East championships nullified, NCAA tournament victories vacated, banners brought down from the rafters...oh...never happened after Buzz left? Never mind.
Are you being purposefully obtuse ?
Hope so.
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There are some on this board who have zero trust that MU can make the right choice. I'm not one of them.
I'm definitely not one who says "never fire a coach because you don't know who will replace them", that's stupid logic. However, I did want to address this point. I don't think the issue is "zero trust in MU", I think the issue is that selecting a head coach is difficult no matter who is making the choice. You can make the home run hire that every administrator, donor, talking head, and average Joe says is the perfect candidate....and they can suck. You can hire the under the radar coach whose hiring is a shock and a confusion to everyone (and outrage to the fans)....and they can be right and that guy can still suck.
A coach who would be successful at one school won't necessarily be successful at another. You can hit a coach in the wrong part of their career. Or you may catch lightening in a bottle.
I have 100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job. I just recognize that the best candidate for the job may end up doing worse than the guy before him. Again, that's not a reason not to fire a coach that needs to be fired, but just the reality of the business.
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Marquette has never in my lifetime been able to hire a high profile established head coach. So the “why” is we are Marquette, not the minor or imagined challenges you mention.
Again, no doubt whatsoever, the PROGRAM Wojo inherited - facilities, financial commitment, recent successes was strong.
Did MU ever even make a run at a high profile established coach? Cant recall one, did we ever make a run? Guys like Ryan, Bennett or any of another dozen or so?
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Did MU ever even make a run at a high profile established coach? Cant recall one, did we ever make a run? Guys like Ryan, Bennett or any of another dozen or so?
Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.
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There is a legend that Bennett was offered the job, hemmed, hawed, and finally decided to take it, called an hour after Buzz accepted.
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I'm definitely not one who says "never fire a coach because you don't know who will replace them", that's stupid logic. However, I did want to address this point. I don't think the issue is "zero trust in MU", I think the issue is that selecting a head coach is difficult no matter who is making the choice. You can make the home run hire that every administrator, donor, talking head, and average Joe says is the perfect candidate....and they can suck. You can hire the under the radar coach whose hiring is a shock and a confusion to everyone (and outrage to the fans)....and they can be right and that guy can still suck.
A coach who would be successful at one school won't necessarily be successful at another. You can hit a coach in the wrong part of their career. Or you may catch lightening in a bottle.
I have 100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job. I just recognize that the best candidate for the job may end up doing worse than the guy before him. Again, that's not a reason not to fire a coach that needs to be fired, but just the reality of the business.
As is said in a previous post;
"There is no guaranty the new hire would work out. Every college and pro sports team has made poor hires, but the good organizations recognize the error and correct it."
Should MU decide Wojo is not good enough and you "100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job", then the new coach will most likely be better than Wojo.
The people who defend Wojo by stating "be careful what you wish for" or "so who will you replace him with?" are making the weakest pro-Wojo argument ever. If that is the logic behind keeping Wojo then MU has serious institutional problems. (I truly don't think that is the case but some here do)
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I am not sure why, but good experienced coaches do not want to coach at MU.
Because 95% of "good, experienced coaches" are perfectly happy where they are and are only going to leave if it is for a clear upgrade.
Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.
Miller and Smart were shooting for bigger jobs. And got them. Bennett would have been coming home, but is probably perfectly happy with the decision he made to wait.
But I think it would be wise to move on from Wojo regardless.
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Because 95% of "good, experienced coaches" are perfectly happy where they are and are only going to leave if it is for a clear upgrade.
Miller and Smart were shooting for bigger jobs. And got them. Bennett would have been coming home, but is probably perfectly happy with the decision he made to wait.
But I think it would be wise to move on from Wojo regardless.
95% ey? source? i'd will willing to bet if one floats the right amount of green in front of most anyone, many would be more perfectly happy to go almost anywhere
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95% ey? source? i'd will willing to bet if one floats the right amount of green in front of most anyone, many would be more perfectly happy to go almost anywhere
I don't know the exact numbers but my perception is you don't often see P6 coaches going to other P6 jobs. Arizona, UCLA, Kentucky and Indiana all hired from outside the P6. I know it does happen but not too often.
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I have 100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job. I just recognize that the best candidate for the job may end up doing worse than the guy before him. Again, that's not a reason not to fire a coach that needs to be fired, but just the reality of the business.
100%? Really? I’ll go out on a limb and say there is ample history that disagrees. If, for example, Bob Dukiet was the “best candidate” for the job when he was hired then the list of potential coaches must have been awful.
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95% ey? source? i'd will willing to bet if one floats the right amount of green in front of most anyone, many would be more perfectly happy to go almost anywhere
My source is my experince. How many P6 coaches go to other P6 programs that aren't clear upgrades?
Last year there were two P6 to P6
Mick Cronin from Cincy to UCLA - upgrade
Buzz Williams from Va Tech to A&M - moving home
2018: Mack from X to Louisville - upgrade
2017: Holtmann from Butler to OSU - upgrade; Cuonzo from Cal to Mizzou - escaping
2016: Dixon from Pitt to TCU - alma mater, escaping; Stallings from Vandy to Pitt - escaping
2015: none
So in the last 5 years it happened 7 times.
3 were clear upgrades
2 or 3 were escaping their current situations
1 or 2 were moving home
So from this, I would say that Marquette's best chance to land a "good, experienced coach" from a P6 program is if they are from the area (eg, Oats), from places where Marquette is a "clear upgrade" (honestly not that many places), or who are escaping their current situation (not sure we would want them anyway)
The next coaching hire will likely be a staff promotion, a mid-major head coach, or a P6 assistant. Just like every coach hire Marquette has made.
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100%? Really? I’ll go out on a limb and say there is ample history that disagrees. If, for example, Bob Dukiet was the “best candidate” for the job when he was hired then the list of potential coaches must have been awful.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-07-05-8602180153-story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-02-04-8701090696-story.html
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Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.
So we have made a few runs then. Just not successful.
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Did MU ever even make a run at a high profile established coach? Cant recall one, did we ever make a run? Guys like Ryan, Bennett or any of another dozen or so?
Are you joking?
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Mick Cronin from Cincy to UCLA - upgrade
Not trying to undermine your point but Cincy is not a P6 school.
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I never compared Wojo to Deane. NEVER.
It's hard to take your post seriously when you don't read or purposely misrepresent my posts.
That said, I don't think we agree about MU and the people who work for MU. I like MU's athletic department and its ability to run a high major program. You don't think they are competent and can not hire a good coach; hence your position "be careful what you wish for".
You need to own your position. Have some backbone. You may be right.
What? You said “MU should not and will not stick with an underperforming coach because they are too afraid to hire a new coach. This was proven with Deane.”
You have also said Wojo has underperformed, have you not? So you compare one underperforming coach to another and go on to talk about the faith you have in MU replacing underperforming coaches. Honestly do not know how you can say you aren’t comparing the two in the manner of them both being underperforming in your eyes.
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Not trying to undermine your point but Cincy is not a P6 school.
Ah yeah. Good point.
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As is said in a previous post;
"There is no guaranty the new hire would work out. Every college and pro sports team has made poor hires, but the good organizations recognize the error and correct it."
Should MU decide Wojo is not good enough and you "100% trust that MU would hire the best candidate for the job", then the new coach will most likely be better than Wojo.
The people who defend Wojo by stating "be careful what you wish for" or "so who will you replace him with?" are making the weakest pro-Wojo argument ever. If that is the logic behind keeping Wojo then MU has serious institutional problems. (I truly don't think that is the case but some here do)
You imply that is the only argument made, and that is categorically false. Post season three straight years, in-line to make again this year, great recruiting class, strong ticket sales, etc, etc....and yes...running off a coach with those credentials don’t stack up well for landing the next guy. Can you imagine Coach K’s response if we ran Wojo off with those creds....that would be epic PR for the program.
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What? You said “MU should not and will not stick with an underperforming coach because they are too afraid to hire a new coach. This was proven with Deane.”
You have also said Wojo has underperformed, have you not? So you compare one underperforming coach to another and go on to talk about the faith you have in MU replacing underperforming coaches. Honestly do not know how you can say you aren’t comparing the two in the manner of them both being underperforming in your eyes.
You are making this way harder than it needs to be. You accurately quoted me about Deane and MU. MU is not afraid that they cannot attract a great coach and will fire a coach when they need to. I know you disagree, but that's my position.
As for "Wojo underperforming"; I have said many times I agreed with his extension. I think he has done just enough to keep his job. But more importantly, MU (who you don't consider competent) thinks the same as evidenced by his modest extension.
Do you twist everyone's post here or is it just me?
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I don't know the exact numbers but my perception is you don't often see P6 coaches going to other P6 jobs. Arizona, UCLA, Kentucky and Indiana all hired from outside the P6. I know it does happen but not too often.
This is true, but even high established non P6 coaches as well.... MU isn’t getting them,...see Shaka.
I go back to my earlier statement, for all those fans here that want to be Gonzaga, Villanova, etc....their coaches have been there a long time and they didn’t always have great runs. The schools stuck with them and they got stability. We haven’t had a decade long coach since Al McGuire....ironically.
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100%? Really? I’ll go out on a limb and say there is ample history that disagrees. If, for example, Bob Dukiet was the “best candidate” for the job when he was hired then the list of potential coaches must have been awful.
Rick did us a major disservice walking away in June. Coaches are hired in April...not June. Newell turned us down, but coaches of any legit quality are not leaving in June.
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You are making this way harder than it needs to be. You accurately quoted me about Deane and MU. MU is not afraid that they cannot attract a great coach and will fire a coach when they need to. I know you disagree, but that's my position.
As for "Wojo underperforming"; I have said many times I agreed with his extension. I think he has done just enough to keep his job. But more importantly, MU (who you don't consider competent) thinks the same as evidenced by his modest extension.
Do you twist everyone's post here or is it just me?
Ironic that you say I twist your words and then say I consider MU incompetent....please point to where I said that.
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This is true, but even high established non P6 coaches as well.... MU isn’t getting them,...see Shaka.
I go back to my earlier statement, for all those fans here that want to be Gonzaga, Villanova, etc....their coaches have been there a long time and they didn’t always have great runs. The schools stuck with them and they got stability. We haven’t had a decade long coach since Al McGuire....ironically.
You also made the case about Willard, as once upon a time he was considered an idiot who couldn't coach.
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You also made the case about Willard, as once upon a time he was considered an idiot who couldn't coach.
Correct.
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Ironic that you say I twist your words and then say I consider MU incompetent....please point to where I said that.
You make it clear to everyone that MU should not fire Wojo because they can't do better. That does not sound like someone who thinks highly of MU and it's ability to run a high major program. As if MU position is "yeh our coach isn't that good but that's the best we can do"
Correct me if I'm wrong. (I know you will)
If you we're true Pro-Jo and not anti-MU, you'd point to all the positives about Wojo and why MU should stick with him. Instead you show no faith in MU with your "be careful what you wish for" comments.
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You make it clear to everyone that MU should not fire Wojo because they can't do better. That does not sound like someone who thinks highly of MU and it's ability to run a high major program. As if MU position is "yeh our coach isn't that good but that's the best we can do"
Correct me if I'm wrong. (I know you will)
If you we're true Pro-Jo and not anti-MU, you'd point to all the positives about Wojo and why MU should stick with him. Instead you show no faith in MU with your "be careful what you wish for" comments.
Ahh. So twisting someone's words...got it.
No, I didn't say MU cannot do better, I pointed out be careful what you wish for because it isn't a slam dunk. I went on to show examples, including those at MU. I also said, that I think MU will make the best hire they can, but that doesn't align with the expectations people have here when some folks are throwing around Rick Pitino, Matt Painter, Gregg Marshall, etc, etc. If we would get Gregg Marshall today....SIGN ME UP. It ain't happening, but whatever.
I've pointed out CONSTANTLY the reasons why he should stay, all you have to do is read them. Things like the trajectory of the program since he took over, 2nd place last year, three straight post season bids, in-line for another this year, best recruiting class in at least 10 years next year, solid kids and on and on. I've also said, I have my doubts about him....I've said that from the day he was hired in that being at Duke you get to work with polished products, not clay in which to mold them. I've argued about stability and how MU has very little of it since McGuire. I wonder why? In my opinion he and the staff have done well with a number of guys, but certainly not all (no staff does). So I'd invite you to actually read what I have said and be more informed....and from a purely ironic perspective it would serve you well.
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Ahh. So twisting someone's words...got it.
No, I didn't say MU cannot do better, I pointed out be careful what you wish for because it isn't a slam dunk. I went on to show examples, including those at MU. I also said, that I think MU will make the best hire they can, but that doesn't align with the expectations people have here when some folks are throwing around Rick Pitino, Matt Painter, Gregg Marshall, etc, etc. If we would get Gregg Marshall today....SIGN ME UP. It ain't happening, but whatever.
I've pointed out CONSTANTLY the reasons why he should stay, all you have to do is read them. Things like the trajectory of the program since he took over, 2nd place last year, three straight post season bids, in-line for another this year, best recruiting class in at least 10 years next year, solid kids and on and on. I've also said, I have my doubts about him....I've said that from the day he was hired in that being at Duke you get to work with polished products, not clay in which to mold them. I've argued about stability and how MU has very little of it since McGuire. I wonder why? In my opinion he and the staff have done well with a number of guys, but certainly not all (no staff does). So I'd invite you to actually read what I have said and be more informed....and from a purely ironic perspective it would serve you well.
I'll admit I have not read all your posts but was focusing on this thread only. I agree that MU will not get Marshall or the like. I also agree that there is (just) enough to like about Wojo to stick with him and to give him the extension. Wojo and MU basketball are far from a dumpster fire but not as good as any of us expect.
IMO, I'd rather read posts about Wojo's good points (even if I might disagree with some) than the argument that we can't do better. And as I said before, there is no guaranty the next coach will be better, but that should not stop MU from trying to get better.
I'm pleased to read that you think Wojo is heading to be a very good coach and we should stick with him. The facts we know about show MU feels the same way but have given themselves an easy out if he does not get better.
FWIW, I think the references to Wright and Few, do more harm than good. At this point Wojo has not had the level of success that those guys had 6 years in and also for every Wright there 100+ guys that failed with his similar career start. Just my opinion.
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Scoop: A House Divided
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Scoop: A House Divided
Scoop: A dog chasing its tail.
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100%? Really? I’ll go out on a limb and say there is ample history that disagrees. If, for example, Bob Dukiet was the “best candidate” for the job when he was hired then the list of potential coaches must have been awful.
Lenny, I'm talking about MU today, not MU before I was born. And the point I was making that you can hire the best candidate that everyone and their mother agrees is the best candidate (Shaka) and they can still be a bust.
Also, given where MU was in its history and the timing of Majerus' departure, I wouldn't be surprised if the list of potential coaches was awful.
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Lenny, I'm talking about MU today, not MU before I was born. And the point I was making that you can hire the best candidate that everyone and their mother agrees is the best candidate (Shaka) and they can still be a bust.
Also, given where MU was in its history and the timing of Majerus' departure, I wouldn't be surprised if the list of potential coaches was awful.
Yup. June departure. Raymond’s was so so tenure, Majerus never got to tournament, ghost of Al and all the alumni with more unicorn expectations.....not a long list.
What’s sad, the list after Al was huge, but we stayed in house.
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Went after Sean Miller and Tony Bennett when Crean left.
Went after Shaka Smarr when Buzz left.
Also went after Bennett again when Buzz left
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Also went after Bennett again when Buzz left
Did we go after Cheeks? He knows sports.
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Also went after Bennett again when Buzz left
Cuonzo Martin another