Why MU Lost to Providence - A look into the Weaknesses of Wojo

[willie warrior]

Fully agree.  A guy who is about the 8th guy for MU. Ed Morrow.
From his bio at Nebraska:
2016-17 (Sophomore)
Despite a foot injury which has limited him for a good chunk of Big Ten play, sophomore Ed Morrow Jr. has made significant strides during his sophomore campaign. The 6-foot-7 forward raised his scoring average from 4.1 points to 9.4 points per game on 51 percent shooting, while pacing the Huskers in both rebounds (7.5) and blocked shots (1.1), as he appeared in 24 contests.

I dont think its the talent...

Then the pointer points to the coaching.

[Herman Cain]

Then the pointer points to the coaching.

I agree with this analysis

[Cheeks]

Then the pointer points to the coaching.

...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right?  That's cuz of other things?  Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next?  Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical


Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4.   His BPM at MU is 3.4.   He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them. 

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right?  That's cuz of other things?  Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next?  Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical


Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4.   His BPM at MU is 3.4.   He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.

There is this thing called growth.  It happens between the ages of 18-22 in college.  You get bigger, wiser, and more experienced naturally.  Is your BPM adjusted for age increases?  No, it's not.   You do know he's a senior now, not a sophomore?   Huge difference.   Of course his BPM would rise at MU.  Talk about a cherry picked stat if I've ever seen one. 

Please do explain his 45.5% FG ....career worst this year.   

Also, please explain why MU as a whole is one of the worst shooting teams inside the paint in the Big East this year.   

[willie warrior]

...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right?  That's cuz of other things?  Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next?  Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical


Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4.   His BPM at MU is 3.4.   He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.

So Bailey's performance is because of Wojo's coaching. Then Joeys performance and unhappiness was also due to Wojo's coaching, Cheeky, you must wear knee pads when it comes to Wojo.

[WhoaJoe2020]

There is this thing called growth.  It happens between the ages of 18-22 in college.  You get bigger, wiser, and more experienced naturally.  Is your BPM adjusted for age increases?  No, it's not.   You do know he's a senior now, not a sophomore?   Huge difference.   Of course his BPM would rise at MU.  Talk about a cherry picked stat if I've ever seen one. 

Please do explain his 45.5% FG ....career worst this year.   

Also, please explain why MU as a whole is one of the worst shooting teams inside the paint in the Big East this year.   

Well let's see....Jayce messed his knee up right before the season and it still doesn't look right, Theo has a hand injury, and Morrow is a 6-7 forward with limited post up skills and touch around the rim. This doesn't mean I'm giving up on any of them. Jayce contributed against PC ,and I expect Theo and Ed to contribute in upcoming games. They are who we thought they were.

Not to mention that there are and should be better options on the floor at most times.

The guys I was expecting to pick up the scoring load ( Markus, Bailey, Sacar, and Koby ), have done so. They just need to do better.

[Cheeks]

So Bailey's performance is because of Wojo's coaching. Then Joeys performance and unhappiness was also due to Wojo's coaching, Cheeky, you must wear knee pads when it comes to Wojo.

Lol. You will notice I asked the question why the downside is always on Wojo and the upside never is.  I think some players get better just from getting stronger, more experienced, mature.  Some make bigger incremental gains because of the coaches, but impossible to gauge.  I just found it funny how you only see it one way.  We have an All American on our team that no way anyone here thought would reach those levels when he came here.  Did Wojo have 0% to do with that?  5%?  10%?  Etc

[Cheeks]

There is this thing called growth.  It happens between the ages of 18-22 in college.  You get bigger, wiser, and more experienced naturally.  Is your BPM adjusted for age increases?  No, it's not.   You do know he's a senior now, not a sophomore?   Huge difference.   Of course his BPM would rise at MU.  Talk about a cherry picked stat if I've ever seen one. 

Please do explain his 45.5% FG ....career worst this year.   

Also, please explain why MU as a whole is one of the worst shooting teams inside the paint in the Big East this year.   

Yes, some of that is growth...maturity, strength, experience, etc.  I agree 100%.   Some kids plateau.  Some kids take bigger jumps than they would normally take if not for that "BAU" growth.  Impossible to measure and you know that. 

You pick on FG% as career worse....based on what I have seen him play he is having trouble putting it in the basket, especially around the rim.  Explain his career high assists or steals per game, FT% at MU vs Nebraska stint?  I mean we can cherry pick stats all day if it makes you feel better. 

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Yes, some of that is growth...maturity, strength, experience, etc.  I agree 100%.   Some kids plateau.  Some kids take bigger jumps than they would normally take if not for that "BAU" growth.  Impossible to measure and you know that. 

You pick on FG% as career worse....based on what I have seen him play he is having trouble putting it in the basket, especially around the rim.  Explain his career high assists or steals per game, FT% at MU vs Nebraska stint?  I mean we can cherry pick stats all day if it makes you feel better.

And here is where I win again.  Let's take a look at all of the players that Wojo has put into the NBA.  We will even do Overseas players.  How many of those that have made it has Wojo recruited from right out of high school?   That is the report card of player development, not some random statistic on how a transfer is performing on the bench.   Let's take a look at how many recruits Wojo has had, that have not developed to have success. I can guarantee the ratio of failure under his watch is more than any other MU coach in history.

[rocky_warrior]

And here is where I win again.  Let's take a look at all of the players that Wojo has put into the NBA.  We will even do Overseas players.  How many of those that have made it has Wojo recruited from right out of high school?   That is the report card of player development, not some random statistic on how a transfer is performing on the bench.   Let's take a look at how many recruits Wojo has had, that have not developed to have success. I can guarantee the ratio of failure under his watch is more than any other MU coach in history.

Ok...Notable HS recruits from here...
http://www.barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Steve%20Wojciechowski

Of those that are out of college...
Henry Ellenson - NBA
Duane Wilson - Nürnberg Falcons BC
Sandy Cohen III - Maccabi Tel Aviv of the Israeli Premier League
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School

Seems all good to me.

[Silent Verbal]

Ok...Notable HS recruits from here...
http://www.barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Steve%20Wojciechowski

Of those that are out of college...
Henry Ellenson - NBA
Duane Wilson - Nürnberg Falcons BC
Sandy Cohen III - Maccabi Tel Aviv of the Israeli Premier League
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School

Seems all good to me.

Duane Wilson was not a Wojo recruit.  Calling Sandy a Wojo recruit is a stretch.  Also, both of those players transferred before finishing their eligibility at Marquette.

[rocky_warrior]

Duane Wilson was not a Wojo recruit.  Calling Sandy a Wojo recruit is a stretch.  Also, both of those players transferred before finishing their eligibility at Marquette.

OK, fully agree on Duane.  However, he never played a game for Buzz, so I count that as development by Wojo. 

Sandy definitely recommitted to Wojo. But if you want to take him off the books.  Fine. 

How many of those that have made it has Wojo recruited from right out of high school?   That is the report card of player development, not some random statistic on how a transfer is performing on the bench.   

Ok, so now we go by the letter of MDDG rule, and remove the ones you say weren't Wojo recruits.

Henry Ellenson - NBA
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School

50% NBA, 50% Juris Doctorate ambitions.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

OK, fully agree on Duane.  However, he never played a game for Buzz, so I count that as development by Wojo. 

Sandy definitely recommitted to Wojo. But if you want to take him off the books.  Fine. 

Ok, so now we go by the letter of MDDG rule, and remove the ones you say weren't Wojo recruits.

Henry Ellenson - NBA
Matt Heldt - Taking Gap Year - plans for Law School

50% NBA, 50% Juris Doctorate ambitions.

[Let's Go Warriors]

...but the increase in stats by Bailey, Markus, etc, etc under Wojo and staff...that's not because of coaching...right?  That's cuz of other things?  Couldn't be that he went from 4.1 to 9.4 because he went from playing 13.7M to 23.4M per game or taking nearly 3X the shots from 1 year to the next?  Ahh, must be nice to have totally illogical


Morrow's BPM at Nebraska was .4.   His BPM at MU is 3.4.   He is doing more for us in the time he is on the court than he did for Nebraska in the time he played for them.

Your skewing the argument.  I was merely responding to people trying to blame the players to protect Wojo.  Many insinuating that other than Markus we have "mid major talent".  Which of course if complete and utter nonsense.  It wasnt a statement about player development.  Rather the ability of a player. A player that is now doing almost nothing...

[GOO]

For me and most of the people I talk to that are MU fans, they seems to support Wojo and think he is doing a good job.  Yes we want yearly NCAA runs. Yes, Wojo has some weaknesses.  Which coach doesn't. I'll say this, the coach that doesn't is not coming to coach at MU.

We have to remember that these MU boards represent a fringe fanatical element of a fringe and not the average MU basketball fan or MU supporter.  And that most of us, such as myself, are not too vocal, even though many of us like where the program is at now.

Context counts, and a lot of people at MU and alumni have the basketball team way down the list of priorities. They see MU as a university first and foremost dedicated to teaching first, research second, etc.  Imagine that and remember that when all that matters to you is winning and NCAA runs. You are not the average fan nor the average MU supporter.  We are a fringe element of a fringe on here. The nuts, frankly.  So, I guess we should expect nutty views. 

What is missing now is, a nice run in the tournament.  Other than that, I have no complaints at all and think the program has been put on the correct course.  Recruiting, check.  Clean program, check. Good citizens, check.  Avoiding the negative newspaper stuff, check.  Avoiding the crime blotter and news coverage, check.  Positive media coverage, check. Student athletes, check.  Accountability, check. Clean image, check.  Winning, check. NCAA run, Negative.

My understanding is that the administration looks at the program and where it was and where it is now. A big positive.  Ya, everyone wants to win an NCAA title, Final Fours, but come on, if that the the primary goal at any cost, not happening at MU.

I'm willing to give him time as he has shown a lot on how a program at MU should be run. A few vocal minority on here, who represent part of the fringe, seem to only care about NCAA runs and wins and more wins. Not the way it should happen at MU and as we've seen, administration won't support a team that wins but is not part of the university and doesn't check the other boxes. Gotta be student athletes and part of the university.

And there are those who think we can go out and poach a highly successful coach.  Never has happened, unlikely to  happen now.  Get over it.  Our best bet it to have a coach that checks the boxes and wins.  Not an easy task in today college environment.  And I suspect it is going to get tougher now that big boosters can essentially legally pay players as part of an advertisement campaign.  I don't think the NCAA is going to say that some Memphis FedEx booster is over paying a kid for his image @ 1M a year as part of a FedEx campaign.  Come to Memphis and get paid 1M a year legally.  Heck, 1M may be too little especially if KY is also recruiting the kid. Maybe Dick Strong will come back - but I doubt that. I suspect that any payments to players will be more in line with actual value for MU, which will make it even harder to compete with certain schools.

In short, I am satisfied where we are at.  And since the OP has stared many threads on essentially the same topic, some of us more quiet one's need to say hold off, relax, positive direction and a lot to like.  A negative, yes.  Perfect, no.  But perfect is not walking through that door.  Well maybe Doc will retire to coach at MU, but even that has has many question marks on how it would work out.

[skianth16]

Context counts, and a lot of people at MU and alumni have the basketball team way down the list of priorities. They see MU as a university first and foremost dedicated to teaching first, research second, etc.  Imagine that and remember that when all that matters to you is winning and NCAA runs. You are not the average fan nor the average MU supporter.  We are a fringe element of a fringe on here. The nuts, frankly. So, I guess we should expect nutty views. 

What is missing now is, a nice run in the tournament.  Other than that, I have no complaints at all and think the program has been put on the correct course.  Recruiting, check.  Clean program, check. Good citizens, check.  Avoiding the negative newspaper stuff, check.  Avoiding the crime blotter and news coverage, check.  Positive media coverage, check. Student athletes, check.  Accountability, check. Clean image, check.  Winning, check. NCAA run, Negative.

I'm willing to give him time as he has shown a lot on how a program at MU should be run. A few vocal minority on here, who represent part of the fringe, seem to only care about NCAA runs and wins and more wins. Not the way it should happen at MU and as we've seen, administration won't support a team that wins but is not part of the university and doesn't check the other boxes. Gotta be student athletes and part of the university.

Lots of things to address here:

For starters, those who are fans of a university's sports teams are not the fringe. Basketball is a huge part of Marquette's identity, hence the significant investment. Who's the highest paid employee at the university? That should tell you something right there about the importance of athletics, basketball in particular.

In your list of boxes that are checked, they're pretty much all just having a clean program. You just repeated a bunch of different ways to describe it. Listing out cons in the same way wouldn't make that argument any more persuasive either. Having a clean program matters, but it's not like it's unheard of to win while having a clean program. Just look at some of the other members of the Big East. I don't think Wojo stands out in this regard. He's just one of hundreds of coaches doing the right thing.

Wojo absolutely has run a clean program, but if that's his biggest pro, then he's not ready for a role like MU yet, in my opinion. I know I've harped on this before, but we've seen a lot of talent walk out the door since he's come here. Losing the Hausers was a huge deal and really set us back for this season. As far as winning goes, he's had some OK to good seasons, but I think most here would agree we expected to be in a better place by year 5 or 6 than we are right now.

To say only a minority care about getting more wins is wrong, not just for Marquette basketball but for any sports fan. Why even watch the games if you don't want to see MU win? Wojo is a basketball coach. His job is to win basketball games. And a big part of that is winning in the postseason. How many banners do you see in the rafters for 25 win seasons? Do you see any for academic All-Americans? I know I've never seen a banner for 10 years without an NCAA infraction. Those things are definitely great accomplishments, but they fall short of the basketball-related goals most coaches and players are striving for.

That's enough from me for now.

TL;DR - Hundreds of coaches run clean programs, that's not special. Winning matters to more people than GOO might think.

[GOO]

I'd say running a clean program has to do with NCAA rules.  The other items are distinguishable and of a different nature going to character of the institution and individual and then coverage of the same, etc.

Heck Bo Ryan likely ran a clean program as far as the NCAA was concerned, with a few slip ups along the way (and maybe some big ones at the end), but he sure missed the student-athlete part of it, and missed some of the character issues that were kept under the table.  But the program was probably clean.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I'd say running a clean program has to do with NCAA rules.  The other items are distinguishable and of a different nature going to character of the institution and individual and then coverage of the same, etc.

Heck Bo Ryan likely ran a clean program as far as the NCAA was concerned, with a few slip ups along the way (and maybe some big ones at the end), but he sure missed the student-athlete part of it, and missed some of the character issues that were kept under the table.  But the program was probably clean.

Moral Superiority makes me sleep better too!

[Elonsmusk]

Lots of things to address here:

For starters, those who are fans of a university's sports teams are not the fringe. Basketball is a huge part of Marquette's identity, hence the significant investment. Who's the highest paid employee at the university? That should tell you something right there about the importance of athletics, basketball in particular.

In your list of boxes that are checked, they're pretty much all just having a clean program. You just repeated a bunch of different ways to describe it. Listing out cons in the same way wouldn't make that argument any more persuasive either. Having a clean program matters, but it's not like it's unheard of to win while having a clean program. Just look at some of the other members of the Big East. I don't think Wojo stands out in this regard. He's just one of hundreds of coaches doing the right thing.

Wojo absolutely has run a clean program, but if that's his biggest pro, then he's not ready for a role like MU yet, in my opinion. I know I've harped on this before, but we've seen a lot of talent walk out the door since he's come here. Losing the Hausers was a huge deal and really set us back for this season. As far as winning goes, he's had some OK to good seasons, but I think most here would agree we expected to be in a better place by year 5 or 6 than we are right now.

To say only a minority care about getting more wins is wrong, not just for Marquette basketball but for any sports fan. Why even watch the games if you don't want to see MU win? Wojo is a basketball coach. His job is to win basketball games. And a big part of that is winning in the postseason. How many banners do you see in the rafters for 25 win seasons? Do you see any for academic All-Americans? I know I've never seen a banner for 10 years without an NCAA infraction. Those things are definitely great accomplishments, but they fall short of the basketball-related goals most coaches and players are striving for.

That's enough from me for now.

TL;DR - Hundreds of coaches run clean programs, that's not special. Winning matters to more people than GOO might think.

This.  Perfectly stated.  We have the name of Al McGuire all over our program, and his players weren't all choir boys and many would have never been admitted to MU without basketball.

Considering the big push in academia/universities to promote diversity and inclusion, oddly it seems apparent that some in MU Admin and fanbase feel we should only welcome kids who come into the university without any personal or familial hardships.  Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds.

[The Sultan]

This.  Perfectly stated.  We have the name of Al McGuire all over our program, and his players weren't all choir boys and many would have never been admitted to MU without basketball.

Considering the big push in academia/universities to promote diversity and inclusion, oddly it seems apparent that some in MU Admin and fanbase feel we should only welcome kids who come into the university without any personal or familial hardships.  Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds.

Who said Marquette doesn't want players with personal or familial hardships?  You don't need to exaggerate.

[Silent Verbal]

Who said Marquette doesn't want players with personal or familial hardships?  You don't need to exaggerate.

There's at least one poster on here who's suggested that we should no longer go after "at risk" type players, and that the program is better off because Wojo has thus far not pursued them.

[GOO]

 'Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds'

I didn't say this and didn't imply this and didn't mean this.  You're putting your own bias into this one.  What you state is not what MU or I want.

[Elonsmusk]

Who said Marquette doesn't want players with personal or familial hardships?  You don't need to exaggerate.

'Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds'

I didn't say this and didn't imply this and didn't mean this.  You're putting your own bias into this one.  What you state is not what MU or I want.

Would you agree that this whole "clean program" focus started 7 years ago under Larry Williams/Pilarz?  This came on the heels of us having a number of JUCO's, and other academically challenged kids.  Many feel Wojo can't even recruit JUCO's.

We raised academic entrance standards above NCAA minimums (what does that achieve?).  Is it not true that kids from broken homes/families, poverty, tend to not score as well on college entrance exams?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sure is hard to not notice the difference in the type of players Al and Buzz had here, compared to those Wojo has recruited.

[The Sultan]

The issue with jucos has nothing to do with being clean cut or their familial backgrounds. It has to do with their potential academic success.

And yes you are correct that people with those backgrounds tend to perform less well academically. But that's the side affect and not the goal.

Again Wojo has recruited jucos. Jameel was admitted with the current standards in place.

[WhoaJoe2020]

'Sure seems we are recruiting more "clean cut" kids from "good" backgrounds'

I didn't say this and didn't imply this and didn't mean this.  You're putting your own bias into this one.  What you state is not what MU or I want.

Kudos

Don't let the extreme NoJos twist your words or your beliefs.

They have a habit of attacking reasonable points of view and demeaning others because their views on Wojo don't align with the extreme position they have adopted.

Stick to your guns, I got your back.