Stealing Tower's Thunder

[Eye]

Good, give your ticket(s) to someone who likes the team

If you want to get into a competition on MU fandom, just let me know. Happy to oblige. You'll lose.

[The Lens]

If you want to get into a competition on MU fandom, just let me know. Happy to oblige. You'll lose.

Resident of La Crosse, WI (or there abouts) is a long-time MU season ticket holder...gets his fandom questioned.

Peak Scoop.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

What were your expectations when Wojo was hired?

What are your expectations now that they've been lowered since Wojo was hired?

Before:
 - Top 25 most years - which essentially correlates to our post BE KenPom rankings through 14 -- 6 of 9 years with 2 top-40's
 - Optimism for a deep run - which was true most years but Three Amigos first year and Buzz's last
 - For reference: Ken Pom beginning 05-06 through 14 (36, 38, 14, 19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68)

Now:
 - Top 40  (actual kenpom -- we have been 93, 97, 32, 53, 33, 32 ('20 to date))
 - Get in tourney most years
 - Optimism for a tourney win
 - Spotless Program

[MU82]

Tonight sucked. Felt like the Murray State game. Wojo had a game plan for Creighton's normal offense, Coach McD anticipated, ran out a completely different look than what they normally run on offense, and Wojo didn't adjust to it. It's a weakness of Wojo's, when an opposing coach does something unexpected, he doubles down and bets that they will regress to their normal offensive game plan. Sometimes it works but when it doesn't it is ugly.

Last season we got torched by the Jays quick perimeter passing leading to open threes. Wojo planned for that and when we forced them into a longer possession we did a good job rotating and covering all of their shooters. We had a complete and utter failure containing penetration. I've never seen Creighton run so many iso plays. When guys like Ballock are looking to drive instead of pass or shoot it is by design to take advantage of a weakness in the opposing defense. Our inability to stay in front of penetrating guards is maddening but our help defense is elite. Wojo overworried about the three point shot which neutralized our help defenders. I would have liked to see the bigs and forwards to stay home and defend the lane. Dare guys like Mahoney, Jefferson, and Bishop to shoot it. Hell, I may have even tried Guru's suggestion of zone. The 5s need to stay near the basket and I'd like Jamal and Bailey to be closer the lane than the the three point line.

This continues to feel like last season. Blown out by a mediocre B1G team on the road (Indiana/Wisconsin). Blown out by a top 10 team on a neutral court (Kansas/Maryland). Blown out on the road in the conference opener (SJU/Creighton). And we may forget but that loss to Saint John's last season was by a bigger margin and I promise that Creighton will finish a lot of higher in KenPom this year than St. John's did last year. That team earned a 5 seed. I think this team has that capability as well. I'm excited to see if we can do it and hopefully avoid the end of season collapse this time.

The most reasoned, most accurate analysis I've read since the game. Thank you for this, TAMU.

I am disappointed with our loss last night, and it's primarily on Wojo. These are his players. He is the one in charge of preparing them before games and making adjustments with them during games. If he doesn't like being held accountable, he should get out of coaching.

But it's a long season. How will our Warriors respond? Will it be like we responded last season after the SJ loss? Or will the season become a Wojtastrophe -- and a giant step backward for the program?

We'll see.

[MUBBau]

If you want to get into a competition on MU fandom, just let me know. Happy to oblige. You'll lose.

You’re the one who said it’s not worth your time, not me. Congrats on your awesome fandom, I’m very impressed.

[lawdog77]

The most reasoned, most accurate analysis I've read since the game. Thank you for this, TAMU.

I am disappointed with our loss last night, and it's primarily on Wojo. These are his players. He is the one in charge of preparing them before games and making adjustments with them during games. If he doesn't like being held accountable, he should get out of coaching.

But it's a long season. How will our Warriors respond? Will it be like we responded last season after the SJ loss? Or will the season become a Wojtastrophe -- and a giant step backward for the program?

We'll see.

Look for Markus to shoot early and often against Villanova. We need to have the opposing team on their heels from jump.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

I thought Sacar played a pretty good game yesterday as well as Bailey. Listening to Wojo's presser, I think he was also disappointed in the offensive production of our bigs (as everyone here was as well). The blow-bys are very concerning going forward. I'm also not jumping off a ledge due to a road loss at Creighton. Didn't like how it went down but anticipated a loss going in. Creighton seems like a tough place to play.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Before:
 - Top 25 most years - which essentially correlates to our post BE KenPom rankings through 14 -- 6 of 9 years with 2 top-40's
 - Optimism for a deep run - which was true most years but Three Amigos first year and Buzz's last
 - For reference: Ken Pom beginning 05-06 through 14 (36, 38, 14, 19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68)

Now:
 - Top 40  (actual kenpom -- we have been 93, 97, 32, 53, 33, 32 ('20 to date))
 - Get in tourney most years
 - Optimism for a tourney win
 - Spotless Program

And therein lies the problem as that is one the main reasons Wojo was hired. Direct your disappointment with Wojo elsewhere. He is actually delivering on that:  Be competitive while running a spotless program.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

And therein lies the problem as that is one the main reasons Wojo was hired. Direct your disappointment with Wojo elsewhere. He is actually delivering on that:  Be competitive while running a spotless program.

I agree Dr. my response was to someone asking about my recalibrated expectations.

Just remember though Bill Cords communicated a very different message when Wojo was hired.  The three legged stool just appeared recently. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

I agree Dr. my response was to someone asking about my recalibrated expectations.

Just remember though Bill Cords communicated a very different message when Wojo was hired.  The three legged stool just appeared recently.

I know Frenn's. MU was a mess of a university when Wojo was hired. We were lucky to get Wojo then versus guys running from something, and he had the best plan. Cords told me he had to sell in K, who went way back.

[Cheeks]

I know Frenn's. MU was a mess of a university when Wojo was hired. We were lucky to get Wojo then versus guys running from something, and he had the best plan. Cords told me he had to sell in K, who went way back.

Running to something is exactly right.  That's one of the reasons he gets a long leash from me.

[Eye]

Resident of La Crosse, WI (or there abouts) is a long-time MU season ticket holder...gets his fandom questioned.

Peak Scoop.

Thanks Lens. Tomah these days, so about 35 minutes less drive time one way, but still about 2:25. Between drive, getting there early, game, traffic on way out, it's still about 8 hours door to door to go to a game. And that's without stops for gas, food, occasionally casino, oftentimes solo. It's 2 hours at home. And there won't be any extra empty seats if I don't go tomorrow.

[Golden Avalanche]

Before:
 - Top 25 most years - which essentially correlates to our post BE KenPom rankings through 14 -- 6 of 9 years with 2 top-40's
 - Optimism for a deep run - which was true most years but Three Amigos first year and Buzz's last
 - For reference: Ken Pom beginning 05-06 through 14 (36, 38, 14, 19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68)

Now:
 - Top 40  (actual kenpom -- we have been 93, 97, 32, 53, 33, 32 ('20 to date))
 - Get in tourney most years
 - Optimism for a tourney win
 - Spotless Program

Thank you for this. I'm curious on three things as a result of the breakdown:


1. The slide out of those year end rankings that started under Buzz didn't give Wojo any leeway in your mind? Wasn't the program on a track to fall back no matter what Wojo did his first two seasons?

2. Where does a team like last year fit into these splits? Wojo had a squad competing for a title until, literally, the last second of the season. I'm not sure where the numbers ended up but surely that would be a sign of improvement?

3. You wanted KenPom top 25 at the hiring. Now you want KenPom top 40. Three of the last four years have finished at 32. This season is currently at 20. Is the difference between KenPom 25 and KenPom 32 so drastic that it's caused you to lower expectations?


4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.

[The Lens]

4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.

Some of this just comes down to gut.  Does the guy in charge inspire confidence he'll engineer something?  Buzz was a tinkerer, you got the sense he'd figure it out.  Wojo is a lot like Crean.  Has a very detailed instruction manual.  But sometimes the Bluejay (or the Pirate, or the Hoya) eats your instruction manual.   Then what?

[Elonsmusk]

Thank you for this. I'm curious on three things as a result of the breakdown:


1. The slide out of those year end rankings that started under Buzz didn't give Wojo any leeway in your mind? Wasn't the program on a track to fall back no matter what Wojo did his first two seasons?

2. Where does a team like last year fit into these splits? Wojo had a squad competing for a title until, literally, the last second of the season. I'm not sure where the numbers ended up but surely that would be a sign of improvement?

3. You wanted KenPom top 25 at the hiring. Now you want KenPom top 40. Three of the last four years have finished at 32. This season is currently at 20. Is the difference between KenPom 25 and KenPom 32 so drastic that it's caused you to lower expectations?


4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.

What's your hot take on why Wojo is the first coach at MU since Bob Dukiet to not win an NCAA tournament game his first 5 years on the job? 

Wojo inherited a higher ranked recruiting class from Buzz, than the one he brings in next year.  It's Wojo's fault he failed in utilizing that class, and instead chose to bring in Carlino, max playing time of Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson, and NOT roll exclusively with all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Luke.  Derrick, Juan and Carlino were not the future of the program.

Side note - bringing in Jayce Johnson.  Was it really necessary?  Theo John is a mess this year.  Trying to divide playing time up between 3 guys now?  Ed, Theo, Jayce?  Morrow has massively regressed from who he was at Iowa.

P.S.  Once Wojo takes us to Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8 three years in a row - then we can start to compare him to Buzz - until then, stop making yourself look foolish.  The guy hasn't gotten done.  Every year brings a new excuse as to why we don't win in March.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Thank you for this. I'm curious on three things as a result of the breakdown:


1. The slide out of those year end rankings that started under Buzz didn't give Wojo any leeway in your mind? Wasn't the program on a track to fall back no matter what Wojo did his first two seasons?

2. Where does a team like last year fit into these splits? Wojo had a squad competing for a title until, literally, the last second of the season. I'm not sure where the numbers ended up but surely that would be a sign of improvement?

3. You wanted KenPom top 25 at the hiring. Now you want KenPom top 40. Three of the last four years have finished at 32. This season is currently at 20. Is the difference between KenPom 25 and KenPom 32 so drastic that it's caused you to lower expectations?


4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.

I think you are trying to be too linear - however since i am linear too, i will point out you actually identified four things.

1. I didn't make any comments about Wojo only the expectations for the program today...I think based on KenPom and other factors that they are worse than before and I think MU is OK with that.  The KenPom results were post BE, not Buzz exclusively.  Wojo did in fact miss my reset expectations for the program the first two years.  I am not in charge of his performance review, but I would have likely taken it into account if I was. 

2. Last year's team seems like the new peak for us.  So they hit reset expectations overall -- could have exceeded if the season theoretically ended in Feb.

3. This season is not at 20...its 32.  Being within the top 25 means 25 is the floor not the ceiling - so consistent deviation among the top-25 with some good years and some where we aren't quite there.  Lately we seem more top 40...partying if we make the top-25 instead of regularly being within that group of teams.

4. Yes optimism is subjective. If you didn't feel like the teams that actually progressed to 2-S16's and an E8 had a chance to make some noise in the tourney, then I cant help you.  I felt that the 3-amigo teams had a chance at a S16--unfortunately they fell short (painfully at the last second in some cases).  I don't feel like we have had the talent to compete for the S16 in many years.  It can happen of course because the tourney can produce crazy results, but I'm not expecting it and more importantly I think MU is OK with it. [EDIT: This isnt meant to be a knock on the players - strong coaching/systems can make up for not top-tier athletes...I dont feel like we have that to make up for the skill gap].

[Cheeks]

What's your hot take on why Wojo is the first coach at MU since Bob Dukiet to not win an NCAA tournament game his first 5 years on the job? 

Wojo inherited a higher ranked recruiting class from Buzz, than the one he brings in next year.  It's Wojo's fault he failed in utilizing that class, and instead chose to bring in Carlino, max playing time of Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson, and NOT roll exclusively with all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Luke.  Derrick, Juan and Carlino were not the future of the program.

Side note - bringing in Jayce Johnson.  Was it really necessary?  Theo John is a mess this year.  Trying to divide playing time up between 3 guys now?  Ed, Theo, Jayce?  Morrow has massively regressed from who he was at Iowa.

P.S.  Once Wojo takes us to Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8 three years in a row - then we can start to compare him to Buzz - until then, stop making yourself look foolish.  The guy hasn't gotten done.  Every year brings a new excuse as to why we don't win in March.

since you keep pushing this BS.

The class Buzz brought in was not good, players left, some never even got here but you keep pushing it.  With that class, what did Buzz do with it?  He crapped with it.

Buzz was able to recruit players that COULD NOT GRADUATE.  Let me say that again...COULD NOT GRADUATE....would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to GRADUATE in the timelines required.  Wojo is not afforded that "luxury"...NOR SHOULD HE BE.

Keep comparing those apples to oranges.  Keep saying that Buzz's hyped up recruiting class was something other than the disaster it was.

[Golden Avalanche]

I think you are trying to be too linear - however since i am linear too, i will point out you actually identified four things.

1. I didn't make any comments about Wojo only the expectations for the program today...I think based on KenPom and other factors that they are worse than before and I think MU is OK with that.  The KenPom results were post BE, not Buzz exclusively.  Wojo did in fact miss my reset expectations for the program the first two years.  I am not in charge of his performance review, but I would have likely taken it into account if I was. 

2. Last year's team seems like the new peak for us.  So they hit reset expectations overall -- could have exceeded if the season theoretically ended in Feb.

3. This season is not at 20...its 32.  Being within the top 25 means 25 is the floor not the ceiling - so consistent deviation among the top-25 with some good years and some where we aren't quite there.  Lately we seem more top 40...partying if we make the top-25 instead of regularly being within that group of teams.

4. Yes optimism is subjective. If you didn't feel like the teams that actually progressed to 2-S16's and an E8 had a chance to make some noise in the tourney, then I cant help you.  I felt that the 3-amigo teams had a chance at a S16--unfortunately they fell short (painfully at the last second in some cases).  I don't feel like we have had the talent to compete for the S16 in many years.  It can happen of course because the tourney can produce crazy results, but I'm not expecting it and more importantly I think MU is OK with it. [EDIT: This isnt meant to be a knock on the players - strong coaching/systems can make up for not top-tier athletes...I dont feel like we have that to make up for the skill gap].

Thanks again for the answers. I was traveling when I wrote and realize now it came off disjointed. Sorry for my delay in responding but I've been out of contact since that post.

It seems expectations have moved quite a bit for you in the time since Wojo has been hired and mostly to the downside. And we won't know for another eight weeks if last season was an outlier or if there is a new sense of direction with the program. Competing for a title two years in a row would result in a discussion of whether Wojo is worth keeping.

Regarding rankings I now see your number in parentheses was the calendar year, not a current KenPom ranking. Chalk that mistake up to airport reading and responding. And you've also made clear that 25 is the floor which means you likely think they should consistently be around 20 so as not to get near their floor. And consistently being around low 30s means Wojo is failing expectations.

And your words on optimism reinforce my point about having it discussed in person. You attribute just making the second weekend as a "deep run". I do not. I could certainly see some of Buzz' teams winning a couple of games before the Tournament started but thinking they had the wherewithal to win that Sweet Sixteen game took a level of optimistic belief I didn't have for them after nearly losing 10 games in conference.

[WhoaJoe2020]

since you keep pushing this BS.

The class Buzz brought in was not good, players left, some never even got here but you keep pushing it.  With that class, what did Buzz do with it?  He crapped with it.

Buzz was able to recruit players that COULD NOT GRADUATE.  Let me say that again...COULD NOT GRADUATE....would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to GRADUATE in the timelines required.  Wojo is not afforded that "luxury"...NOR SHOULD HE BE.

Keep comparing those apples to oranges.  Keep saying that Buzz's hyped up recruiting class was something other than the disaster it was.

Kinda makes the case for giving Wojo a little more leeway. All things NOT being equal.

[Elonsmusk]

since you keep pushing this BS.

The class Buzz brought in was not good, players left, some never even got here but you keep pushing it.  With that class, what did Buzz do with it?  He crapped with it.

Buzz was able to recruit players that COULD NOT GRADUATE.  Let me say that again...COULD NOT GRADUATE....would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to GRADUATE in the timelines required.  Wojo is not afforded that "luxury"...NOR SHOULD HE BE.

Keep comparing those apples to oranges.  Keep saying that Buzz's hyped up recruiting class was something other than the disaster it was.

Yea. You’re right. You BOLDING your point convinced me.

Yet all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Deonte, Luke could graduate. Or here, is this better:  THEY ALL COULD GRADUATE.

Stop with the nonsense about Buzz’s last year. He had no intention of investing into that class..he was out the door.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Yea. You’re right. You BOLDING your point convinced me.

Yet all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Deonte, Luke could graduate. Or here, is this better:  THEY ALL COULD GRADUATE.

Stop with the nonsense about Buzz’s last year. He had no intention of investing into that class..he was out the door.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wilson have severe shin splints(hairline fractures). I also seem to recall that Luke had a bad shoulder that required surgery. I further recall Deonte being a head case and with good reason considering the unfortunate circumstances surrounding his family. Dawson? Who Dat? And JJJ =this years JC, athletic but unpolished.
Wojo scrambled to put together a recruiting class after Buzz left the cupboard bare. For a number of reasons it didn't work out. Some of which I mentioned. And yes Wojo was a first time head coach who made mistakes. Fast forward to last season and the team had 27 wins and a decent seed in the tournament. Yeah the end was disappointing but there were a few shining moments along the way.

This years team reminds me of last years in ways with Koby, Brendan, Jamal, and Greg replacing the Hausers, and Jayce replacing Matt, sacrificing some offense for some improved defense. Basically a wash. That's why there's every reason to be optimistic about the teams chances going forward. With the added depth of athletic players they should be able to absorb a few minor injuries and avoid late season fatigue, reducing the likelihood of another late season meltdown. Hopefully that gets us in the tournament as well as a couple wins.

And, in the event they do win one or two or more games at the big dance, you won't hear me giving Wojo the lions share of the credit, just like Buzz didn't deserve most of the credit for the Davidson win and subsequent run.

[Lighthouse 84]

? And JJJ =this years JC, athletic but unpolished.

This year's JC?  Are you saying JjJ was the equivalent of this year's Jamal Cain?  What year JjJ are you comparing to this year's JC?  Don't get me wrong.  I've been high on Jamal since he got to MU and my posts from JC's freshman year back that up.  But JjJ averaged 10.19 and 11.97 pts, 1.59 and 1.9 steals, 1.97 and 2.68 assists and 3.22 and 4.1 rebounds during his jr. and sr. years, respectively. He scored over 1,000 points at MU.  Stats aren't the only thing to look at, but Jamal isn't quite at JjJ's level yet.

[Galway Eagle]

This year's JC?  Are you saying JjJ was the equivalent of this year's Jamal Cain?  What year JjJ are you comparing to this year's JC?  Don't get me wrong.  I've been high on Jamal since he got to MU and my posts from JC's freshman year back that up.  But JjJ averaged 10.19 and 11.97 pts, 1.59 and 1.9 steals, 1.97 and 2.68 assists and 3.22 and 4.1 rebounds during his jr. and sr. years, respectively. He scored over 1,000 points at MU.  Stats aren't the only thing to look at, but Jamal isn't quite at JjJ's level yet.

At least it's not cringeworthy every time Jamal shoots. When JJJ did any outside shot I was ready to scream.

[WhoaJoe2020]

This year's JC?  Are you saying JjJ was the equivalent of this year's Jamal Cain?  What year JjJ are you comparing to this year's JC?  Don't get me wrong.  I've been high on Jamal since he got to MU and my posts from JC's freshman year back that up.  But JjJ averaged 10.19 and 11.97 pts, 1.59 and 1.9 steals, 1.97 and 2.68 assists and 3.22 and 4.1 rebounds during his jr. and sr. years, respectively. He scored over 1,000 points at MU.  Stats aren't the only thing to look at, but Jamal isn't quite at JjJ's level yet.

I was referring to his freshman and sophomore seasons specifically but he never really stood out to me and like another poster mentioned, his outside shot gave me an anxiety attack every time he pulled up for one.

[BM1090]

At least it's not cringeworthy every time Jamal shoots. When JJJ did any outside shot I was ready to scream.

JJJ shot 38% on 3s as an upperclassman. He developed into a good shooter.