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Author Topic: Did you guys ever think?  (Read 10312 times)

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #175 on: December 06, 2019, 02:57:25 PM »
To Cheeks, and Tower,

What are your thoughts on Wojo having an All American on his roster currently, and his success on the court?   A lot of love for the incoming recruiting class (I understand completely) but Wojo also has a current player who many argue is a top 5-10 player all time at MU.

If Dawson isn’t in the discussion when his career is over at MU as a top 10 player All time, how do you predict wojos seasons are going to go?

I think Wojo needs a lot more then Dawson, (even though it’s a good start) with his coaching capabilities

Not All Americans are equal

MH is doing great things despite limitations in size...he and the staff have made him and AA, he doesn’t have the built on athleticism.

Doesn’t Wojo get some credit in helping him become an AA?

I look at some other programs right now with AA’s on the team and “world class” coaches struggling...why?
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #176 on: December 06, 2019, 03:01:35 PM »
I believe it was either TAMU or brewski (or both) who used KenPom and some of the fancy schmancy modern metrics that today's groovy kids love to show that, actually, Wojo has almost exactly met expectations every season.

While he hasn't "outperformed," which has been disappointing to many, he also hasn't "underperformed."

Hopefully one or both of them will check in to say whether or not I have that correct.

Meeting mediocre expectations makes one mediocre. Five years and only one season as a single digit seed in the tourney is underachieving.
"When you're the leader of a group or an organization, you hold your kids accountable but the main person you need to hold accountable is me."  -Wojo

Its DJOver

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #177 on: December 06, 2019, 03:02:31 PM »
I'm the first to admit the world is different than it was between 1964 and 1977. But I'll also acknowledge that good organizations adapt. For a long time, I don't think we did and we're paying the price. We have the same number of Final Four appearances since 2000 as Loyola of Chicago, forgodssake, and fewer than Butler or that disgusting rodent to the west.

I'm not sure that comparing FF's is a great barometer for program success.  Pitt was one of the heaviest of hitters in the prime of the Beast.  I think they got something like three 1 seeds, didn't get a FF.  Look at the successful coaches that have been through Xavier; Matta, Miller, Mack.  Heck, some people are already convinced that Steele is better than Wojo because X is ranked higher by kenpom.  0 FFs. For the first 17 minutes of the Purdue game, it looked like we weren't even playing the same sport as them, and a lot of people think that Painter is multiple classes above Wojo.  0 FFs.  Crean has mixed reviews among our fanbase, but I don't think anyone can objectively say that he's better than Dixon, Mack, Miller, or Painter, yet he has a FF.  As much as Chicos spouts out "crapshoot" way too much, the underlying point is valid.

djvern414

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #178 on: December 06, 2019, 03:19:18 PM »
..... "crapshoot" way too much, the underlying point is valid.
[/quote]

For those with the advanced stat big noggins', aside from the single elimination format are there any statistical anomalies in the "luck factor" in NCAA tournament games as compared to the regular season?  Could someone aggregate all the games and compare them on Kenpom?

Otherwise, what is the validity of the "crapshoot" aside from that any time during a season or post-season a team beats the odds?  Maybe I need to look up the definition of crapshoot....

tower912

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #179 on: December 06, 2019, 03:37:49 PM »
To Cheeks, and Tower,

What are your thoughts on Wojo having an All American on his roster currently, and his success on the court?   A lot of love for the incoming recruiting class (I understand completely) but Wojo also has a current player who many argue is a top 5-10 player all time at MU.

If Dawson isn’t in the discussion when his career is over at MU as a top 10 player All time, how do you predict wojos seasons are going to go?

I think Wojo needs a lot more then Dawson, (even though it’s a good start) with his coaching capabilities
I am glad Markus came to Marquette.    A once in a generation talent likely to score around 2800 career points before he is through.   He will probably play on teams that won between 85 and 90 games and went to the tournament 3 times.    There are worse legacies.   I hope MU wins some tourney games this year, but I won't make predictions about that in December.   All while representing Marquette with class and dignity and being willing to speak out on some big issues. 
   I think Wojo gets some credit for putting Markus in a position to succeed as he has.     Again, with Markus, it is likely that Wojo will have won 85-90 games in a four year stretch.    I don't think Wojo is a finished product and I still don't think he has made a team better than the sum of its parts,  but that 4 year win total is nothing to apologize for.
    I think Wojo needs more than Garcia, too.    Good thing he got Lewis, Oso, Symir, Koby, Bailey, Cain, Greg, Theo, Dexter for next year, too.   Hope he lands Mane.    If not, I am sure Wojo will be looking for grad transfers, like he does every year.     Needs another post player.     I have no idea what Garcia's career will look like at MU.    Tell me how many years he stays, tell me who else comes and how they develop, tell me who leaves, tell me who gets hurt.     
    Your whole point is that you don't think Wojo is a good coach.    OK.   I don't think he is as good as he is going to be.   He is not yet an alchemist nor a magician, making gold out of straw.    I think he has the potential to be that 20 year guy referenced elsewhere, unless Duke grabs him when K retires.   I can certainly see the foundation he is attempting to build.   I think if MU were to fire him, he would be snatched up in a nanosecond by someone else and could very well become a skinny Majerus, having tremendous success while MU fans wail and gnash their teeth. 
   What I don't believe is that the next guy is guaranteed to get better.   I am grateful that MU did not go with Martin or Howland.    For every Beard, there is a Groce.     
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #180 on: December 06, 2019, 03:53:48 PM »
There were 10 Power 6 coaching changes in 2014. Wojo would clearly be considered the third most successful hire of the bunch, behind both Buzz (who is no longer at Va Tech) and Bruce Pearl.  He'd be ahead of the likes of Jim Christian, Wayne Tinkle and Danny Manning, who are currently still in those jobs but in various degrees of trouble.  And well ahead of disasters like Ernie Kent, Donnie Tyndall and Kim Anderson.
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Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #181 on: December 06, 2019, 04:24:00 PM »
I am glad Markus came to Marquette.    A once in a generation talent likely to score around 2800 career points before he is through.   He will probably play on teams that won between 85 and 90 games and went to the tournament 3 times.    There are worse legacies.   I hope MU wins some tourney games this year, but I won't make predictions about that in December.   All while representing Marquette with class and dignity and being willing to speak out on some big issues. 
   I think Wojo gets some credit for putting Markus in a position to succeed as he has.     Again, with Markus, it is likely that Wojo will have won 85-90 games in a four year stretch.    I don't think Wojo is a finished product and I still don't think he has made a team better than the sum of its parts,  but that 4 year win total is nothing to apologize for.
    I think Wojo needs more than Garcia, too.    Good thing he got Lewis, Oso, Symir, Koby, Bailey, Cain, Greg, Theo, Dexter for next year, too.   Hope he lands Mane.    If not, I am sure Wojo will be looking for grad transfers, like he does every year.     Needs another post player.     I have no idea what Garcia's career will look like at MU.    Tell me how many years he stays, tell me who else comes and how they develop, tell me who leaves, tell me who gets hurt.     
    Your whole point is that you don't think Wojo is a good coach.    OK.   I don't think he is as good as he is going to be.   He is not yet an alchemist nor a magician, making gold out of straw.    I think he has the potential to be that 20 year guy referenced elsewhere, unless Duke grabs him when K retires.   I can certainly see the foundation he is attempting to build.   I think if MU were to fire him, he would be snatched up in a nanosecond by someone else and could very well become a skinny Majerus, having tremendous success while MU fans wail and gnash their teeth. 
   What I don't believe is that the next guy is guaranteed to get better.   I am grateful that MU did not go with Martin or Howland.    For every Beard, there is a Groce.   

Who's guaranteeing anything?  We've had 5+ years of Wojo failing to make teams better than the sum of their parts, as well as a mismanaged locker room to end last year.  You want to be optimistic about Wojo's growth as a coach moving forward, that's fine.  That's no more guaranteed than finding a guy better than Wojo though.
"When you're the leader of a group or an organization, you hold your kids accountable but the main person you need to hold accountable is me."  -Wojo

willie warrior

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #182 on: December 06, 2019, 04:25:46 PM »
I am glad Markus came to Marquette.    A once in a generation talent likely to score around 2800 career points before he is through.   He will probably play on teams that won between 85 and 90 games and went to the tournament 3 times.    There are worse legacies.   I hope MU wins some tourney games this year, but I won't make predictions about that in December.   All while representing Marquette with class and dignity and being willing to speak out on some big issues. 
   I think Wojo gets some credit for putting Markus in a position to succeed as he has.     Again, with Markus, it is likely that Wojo will have won 85-90 games in a four year stretch.    I don't think Wojo is a finished product and I still don't think he has made a team better than the sum of its parts,  but that 4 year win total is nothing to apologize for.
    I think Wojo needs more than Garcia, too.    Good thing he got Lewis, Oso, Symir, Koby, Bailey, Cain, Greg, Theo, Dexter for next year, too.   Hope he lands Mane.    If not, I am sure Wojo will be looking for grad transfers, like he does every year.     Needs another post player.     I have no idea what Garcia's career will look like at MU.    Tell me how many years he stays, tell me who else comes and how they develop, tell me who leaves, tell me who gets hurt.     
    Your whole point is that you don't think Wojo is a good coach.    OK.   I don't think he is as good as he is going to be.   He is not yet an alchemist nor a magician, making gold out of straw.    I think he has the potential to be that 20 year guy referenced elsewhere, unless Duke grabs him when K retires.   I can certainly see the foundation he is attempting to build.   I think if MU were to fire him, he would be snatched up in a nanosecond by someone else and could very well become a skinny Majerus, having tremendous success while MU fans wail and gnash their teeth. 
   What I don't believe is that the next guy is guaranteed to get better.   I am grateful that MU did not go with Martin or Howland.    For every Beard, there is a Groce.   
Lots of words in defense of a mediocre coach. Sure glad we have such great defenses of what some perceive as mediocrity.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #183 on: December 06, 2019, 04:36:33 PM »
There were 10 Power 6 coaching changes in 2014. Wojo would clearly be considered the third most successful hire of the bunch, behind both Buzz (who is no longer at Va Tech) and Bruce Pearl.  He'd be ahead of the likes of Jim Christian, Wayne Tinkle and Danny Manning, who are currently still in those jobs but in various degrees of trouble.  And well ahead of disasters like Ernie Kent, Donnie Tyndall and Kim Anderson.

Sure.  This is one way to look at it..we certainly could have done worse.  Yet let's look at these coaches and the programs they took over:

Wayne Tinkle - Oregon State:  Gone 26 years since an NCAA tournament until Tinkle got them there in 2016.  Not bad, actually.

Danny Manning - Wake hadn't made an NCAA in the 5 years prior to Manning taking over and took over a team previously ranked 137 and 117 the prior two years, and Wake plays in the ACC...tougher conference since 2015.

Kim Anderson -  Inherited a dumpster fire of a program in wake of Frank Haith's rampant violations.  https://www.si.com/college/2016/01/13/missouri-basketball-rules-violations-frank-haith-postseason-ban

Donnie Tyndall - Lasted 1 year at Tennessee before getting dumped due to NCAA violations at his previous job at Southern Miss.

Ernie Kent - Washington State.  Not exactly a basketball powerhouse not having made an NCAA since 2009 under Tony Bennett.  Kent inherite a team that went 10-14 the prior season.

So, context matters.  Marquette job is LIGHT YEARS beyond any of these programs.  There are basically just two negative recruiting angles against Marquette - cold winters, small school/no football.  But, we have the Al McGuire Center, MKE is an NBA town, with NBA players coming through the program frequently practicing at the AL, a rich basketball tradition, and a massive basketball budget.  A coach should perform well here. 

K.O., Crean, and Buzz, and even Deane to an extent showed what was possible at MU.  Wojo has severely underperformed all of these guys with the best situation of the bunch to sell.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #184 on: December 06, 2019, 04:41:46 PM »
Sure.  This is one way to look at it..we certainly could have done worse.  Yet let's look at these coaches and the programs they took over:

Wayne Tinkle - Oregon State:  Gone 26 years since an NCAA tournament until Tinkle got them there in 2016.  Not bad, actually.

Danny Manning - Wake hadn't made an NCAA in the 5 years prior to Manning taking over and took over a team previously ranked 137 and 117 the prior two years, and Wake plays in the ACC...tougher conference since 2015.

Kim Anderson -  Inherited a dumpster fire of a program in wake of Frank Haith's rampant violations.  https://www.si.com/college/2016/01/13/missouri-basketball-rules-violations-frank-haith-postseason-ban

Donnie Tyndall - Lasted 1 year at Tennessee before getting dumped due to NCAA violations at his previous job at Southern Miss.

Ernie Kent - Washington State.  Not exactly a basketball powerhouse not having made an NCAA since 2009 under Tony Bennett.  Kent inherite a team that went 10-14 the prior season.

So, context matters.  Marquette job is LIGHT YEARS beyond any of these programs.  There are basically just two negative recruiting angles against Marquette - cold winters, small school/no football.  But, we have the Al McGuire Center, MKE is an NBA town, with NBA players coming through the program frequently practicing at the AL, a rich basketball tradition, and a massive basketball budget.  A coach should perform well here. 

K.O., Crean, and Buzz, and even Deane to an extent showed what was possible at MU.  Wojo has severely underperformed all of these guys with the best situation of the bunch to sell.

You give Wojo so much grief but Deane had a team coming off a sweet 16 with two future NBA players on it and did nothing. I'm confident many would agree that Wojo has exceeded deane
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tower912

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #185 on: December 06, 2019, 04:51:14 PM »
Lots of words in defense of a mediocre coach. Sure glad we have such great defenses of what some perceive as mediocrity.

He asked what I perceived to be a sincere question.    I tried to give a thorough, sincere answer.    You replied with your one note snark.    yawn.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #186 on: December 06, 2019, 04:53:28 PM »
You give Wojo so much grief but Deane had a team coming off a sweet 16 with two future NBA players on it and did nothing. I'm confident many would agree that Wojo has exceeded deane

While the direction in which the program was trending was what was Deane's undoing (Krunti Hester being our only signing in the 1999-2000 class and being hyped for being top 20 in Indiana) Deane's record on the court wasn't bad at all (and those future NBA guys were mid-second round picks):

1994-95 - lost three starters from the previous year, one BS foul call with .7 seconds left away from the NIT title
1995-96 - CUSA conference title game (lost in OT), 4 seed, second-round NCAA tournament exit
1996-97 - CUSA tourney title, 7 seed, lost to eventual Elite Eight team in the first round
1999-98 - NIT quarter finals, lost at Minnesota when John Cliff missed the possible game winning shot

So, HAS Wojo exceeded Deane?  He definitely has in recruiting (the advantages he has over Deane helps) but has he on the court?

What, you still throwing up bricks? What is this, a Masons convention? Clank, clank! I need, like, a welding torch to play in this league! I got an idea, let's just stop right now and gather up all these bricks and let's build a shelter for the homeless so maybe your mother will have a place to stay

Pakuni

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #187 on: December 06, 2019, 05:21:34 PM »
While the direction in which the program was trending was what was Deane's undoing (Krunti Hester being our only signing in the 1999-2000 class and being hyped for being top 20 in Indiana) Deane's record on the court wasn't bad at all (and those future NBA guys were mid-second round picks):

1994-95 - lost three starters from the previous year, one BS foul call with .7 seconds left away from the NIT title
1995-96 - CUSA conference title game (lost in OT), 4 seed, second-round NCAA tournament exit
1996-97 - CUSA tourney title, 7 seed, lost to eventual Elite Eight team in the first round
1999-98 - NIT quarter finals, lost at Minnesota when John Cliff missed the possible game winning shot

So, HAS Wojo exceeded Deane?  He definitely has in recruiting (the advantages he has over Deane helps) but has he on the court?

Deane inherited three very good Kevin O'Neill recruiting classes and his on-court record was respectable as a result.
Once KO's players were gone, so were Maquette's hopes of playing in the postseason.

Oh, and you failed to include Deane's final season.
1998-99: 14-15, including 6-10 in conference.  No postseason.
 

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #188 on: December 06, 2019, 06:00:49 PM »
Sure.  This is one way to look at it..we certainly could have done worse.  Yet let's look at these coaches and the programs they took over:

Wayne Tinkle - Oregon State:  Gone 26 years since an NCAA tournament until Tinkle got them there in 2016.  Not bad, actually.

Danny Manning - Wake hadn't made an NCAA in the 5 years prior to Manning taking over and took over a team previously ranked 137 and 117 the prior two years, and Wake plays in the ACC...tougher conference since 2015.

Kim Anderson -  Inherited a dumpster fire of a program in wake of Frank Haith's rampant violations.  https://www.si.com/college/2016/01/13/missouri-basketball-rules-violations-frank-haith-postseason-ban

Donnie Tyndall - Lasted 1 year at Tennessee before getting dumped due to NCAA violations at his previous job at Southern Miss.

Ernie Kent - Washington State.  Not exactly a basketball powerhouse not having made an NCAA since 2009 under Tony Bennett.  Kent inherite a team that went 10-14 the prior season.

So, context matters.  Marquette job is LIGHT YEARS beyond any of these programs.  There are basically just two negative recruiting angles against Marquette - cold winters, small school/no football.  But, we have the Al McGuire Center, MKE is an NBA town, with NBA players coming through the program frequently practicing at the AL, a rich basketball tradition, and a massive basketball budget.  A coach should perform well here. 

So which of the coaches hired in 2014 have been more successful than Wojo?
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Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #189 on: December 06, 2019, 06:28:07 PM »
So which of the coaches hired in 2014 have been more successful than Wojo?

You already answered that - Buzz and Pearl?  Wojo snagged the best job of the bunch and comes in a distant third behind Buzz and Pearl.  You may recall VaTech and Auburn weren't exactly basketball powerhouses prior to Buzz and Pearl taking them over.

Not sure why you would think for a minute the situations Tinkle, Manning, Anderson, Tyndall, Kent, Buzz and Pearl walked into are in the same area code as what Wojo inherited at MU. 

And let's nip this in the bud, this was you taking this thread back 5 years, not me.  Further, I don't disagree with you original post, but it is a little disingenuous to not provide some context around the other hires that year.


Pakuni

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #190 on: December 06, 2019, 06:32:00 PM »
Anyone who believes Marquette is "light years " ahead of Tennessee and Mizzou, or even Wake, is delusional.

Pakuni

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #191 on: December 06, 2019, 06:34:14 PM »
You already answered that - Buzz and Pearl?

So, a guy who didn't want to be at MU and - according to you, quit on his team - and an established cheater.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #192 on: December 06, 2019, 06:46:28 PM »
Some (hopefully) final thoughts of mine:

1) Success is measured two ways: Wins and losses and how deep we get into the NCAAs. Look, they'll be years where we get the booby prize -- last year being a prime example. We were bounced in 1971, 1973 and 1975 very quickly. Only twice did we make it to the Final Four in the Golden Era of MU basketball. But we were consistently good, sold out the MECCA and our team did wonderful things for the university.

2) Recruiting is only half the battle: Buzz brought in some heavyweights but I always questioned whether he could develop talent. Coach McGuire and his team did and I think Wojo is headed in this direction. The Brother who raised questions about 18-year-old decisions is spot on. Another issue is kids who play in places like Stevens Point or Rice Lake, who only get comparable talent when they play AAU ball. You sometimes wonder whether they're adequate talent in a  sub-optimal league.

I'm the first to admit the world is different than it was between 1964 and 1977. But I'll also acknowledge that good organizations adapt. For a long time, I don't think we did and we're paying the price. We have the same number of Final Four appearances since 2000 as Loyola of Chicago, forgodssake, and fewer than Butler or that disgusting rodent to the west.

Still optimistic here that Coach Wojo will get us there and he'll learn from his mistakes. Just wish we weren't his test platform. I'll admit that had we hired Cuonzo Martin or Ben Howland, both cast-offs from elsewhere, our upward trajectory would be faster but the apogee of our orbit would be lower and we'd be looking again sooner. Low earth orbit does not excite me!!!! I think that was the core of the hiring decision on Coach Wojo.

Wisconsin has been one of the most successful programs in college basketball in that time period.

We have more Final Fours in that period than a lot of schools that think they are “basketball” schools.

Loyola is a classic example of crapshoot.  MU’s Final Four run way harder than theirs...luck has a lot to do with NCAA tournament success.

There are just many more good programs today than back in the day.  Even adding an extra round in ‘85 means one extra win to get to the Final Four.  All those things add up to why it is so damn hard.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #193 on: December 06, 2019, 06:55:01 PM »
..... "crapshoot" way too much, the underlying point is valid.


For those with the advanced stat big noggins', aside from the single elimination format are there any statistical anomalies in the "luck factor" in NCAA tournament games as compared to the regular season?  Could someone aggregate all the games and compare them on Kenpom?

Otherwise, what is the validity of the "crapshoot" aside from that any time during a season or post-season a team beats the odds?  Maybe I need to look up the definition of crapshoot....

Of course.

As an example...one team makes it to the Final Four playing a 14, 6, 2 and a 1 seed.

A different final four team beats a 6, 3, 7, and 9....that was Loyola of Chicago.  They had no control over who they played.

Luck / crapshoot gets incorporated.  Having to play a school 70 miles from their base...matters.  Etc
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #194 on: December 06, 2019, 07:10:13 PM »
You already answered that - Buzz and Pearl?  Wojo snagged the best job of the bunch and comes in a distant third behind Buzz and Pearl.  You may recall VaTech and Auburn weren't exactly basketball powerhouses prior to Buzz and Pearl taking them over.

Not sure why you would think for a minute the situations Tinkle, Manning, Anderson, Tyndall, Kent, Buzz and Pearl walked into are in the same area code as what Wojo inherited at MU. 

And let's nip this in the bud, this was you taking this thread back 5 years, not me.  Further, I don't disagree with you original post, but it is a little disingenuous to not provide some context around the other hires that year.

Pearl cheats.  The NCAA is all over him.

Buzz ....


"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

BallBoy

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #195 on: December 06, 2019, 07:16:18 PM »
I dont think your conclusion is accurate.  For example Boeheim went S16, 1 win, S16, S16 to start his career.  Izzo went NIT, NIT, S16, FF Champion.  Knight? - NIT, FF, No Tourney, Elite 8, Champ, No tourney.

Early success is not an indicator--sustained success sure is.

Boeheim was an assistant coach at Syracuse for 8 years before taking over the program. Izzo was an assistant coach for 13years at MSU before being named head coach. They were being groomed for those roles they were recruiting their players. They basically had that time to get ready take over. It would have been they same thing if Wojo stayed at Duke and took over for coach K.  They had longevity with their programs.

If you want to win in any sport consistency is key otherwise everything has to break perfectly. No injuries, peaking at the right, right path to the finals. Everything that Cheeks calls the crapshoot has to be perfectly aligned.


MU82

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #196 on: December 06, 2019, 07:28:13 PM »
even Deane to an extent showed what was possible at MU.  Wojo has severely underperformed

How embarrassing for you.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people's thinking."

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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #197 on: December 06, 2019, 07:29:06 PM »
Boeheim was an assistant coach at Syracuse for 8 years before taking over the program. Izzo was an assistant coach for 13years at MSU before being named head coach. They were being groomed for those roles they were recruiting their players. They basically had that time to get ready take over. It would have been they same thing if Wojo stayed at Duke and took over for coach K.  They had longevity with their programs.

If you want to win in any sport consistency is key otherwise everything has to break perfectly. No injuries, peaking at the right, right path to the finals. Everything that Cheeks calls the crapshoot has to be perfectly aligned.

Well I guess duke should have hired wojo.

Those were your examples, not mine.

BallBoy

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #198 on: December 06, 2019, 08:46:23 PM »
Well I guess duke should have hired wojo.

Those were your examples, not mine.

I am totally lost on what you are trying to say. First of all the coaches I mentioned were at their school for over 10 years before winning their first title.  Of the coaches very few have transitioned between the successful coach and the next aka large gaps or the success has been built around those coaches. 

If we take Jay Wright, he had three NITs before his first tournament. He had a six year stretch of no NCAA or first weekend only as a high seed. The school stayed with him and have been rewarded with two NCAAs.

I didn’t bring up Izzo, but you did, Izzo would fall in the category of a successful transition which there are few. He was with MSU for 13 years before taking the reins.

Boeheim was at Syracuse for 27years as HC or 35 total before his first title.  Also of interest is in his first 10 years the NCAA didn’t have 64 teams. So in reality he had 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 as in NIT - 0 as in NIT - 1 - 1 -1 wins in his first nine years. His 10 yr he was the runner-up and flamed out in the second round the following year. If we put that into today’s context it sounds impressive to say he had 3 sweet 16s but in reality he had one win a year.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 08:52:45 PM by BallBoy »

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #199 on: December 06, 2019, 09:11:08 PM »
There were 10 Power 6 coaching changes in 2014. Wojo would clearly be considered the third most successful hire of the bunch, behind both Buzz (who is no longer at Va Tech) and Bruce Pearl.  He'd be ahead of the likes of Jim Christian, Wayne Tinkle and Danny Manning, who are currently still in those jobs but in various degrees of trouble.  And well ahead of disasters like Ernie Kent, Donnie Tyndall and Kim Anderson.

The one coach that I think that could have been been a real candidate for us (so no Pearl, squirmy and no Beard, wasn't on anyone's radar, etc) who has done better than Wojo is Mike White at Florida. He had done enough at Louisiana Tech that I think he would have been a legitimate candidate for us and I've liked what he's done at Florida...though they are off to a rough start this season after starting top 10 in most rankings. Not sure that he would have been successful here as all of his previous stops have been in the southeast.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

 

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