Marquette: All-Time Top 10

[MU82]

I started to include this in my post in the Markus/GOAT discussion, but realized it should be a thread of its own.

I think there have been similar threads in the past, but that's OK. We don't mind recycling topics here, and those were before Markus became our all-time leading scorer.

It's not an easy exercise.

Who among us even knows how great pre-Al guys like Kojis and Wolf were? How does one even compare players who were so very different -- Jerome Whitehead and Steve Novak, for instance? Eras have changed so much, especially since the 3-point line and shot-clock came into play. Plus, we have to compare guys who were only around for 2 years to those who played for 4. (Or, in one case, 6!)

A lot of Scoopers were still years away from being born when their faves were playing. It might be unrealistic to think that a 30-year-old would consider Bob Lackey or George Thompson to be on an all-time MU hoops list ahead of a guy who will have outscored them by a zillion points, a guy they have seen do things that no other player in Big East history has done.

I was a kid living in Connecticut when Al's great teams were playing, so I saw some Warriors on TV during the NCAAs and I obviously have read about them and know who they are. The two best Warriors during my time at Marquette were Worthen (my first two years) and Rivers (my last two years). And like most ardent MU fans, I have followed my alma mater closely since I graduated. Thankfully, that has gotten very easy to do the last decade or so.

Rivers and I are friendly (not friends), and his shot against ND was the No. 1 Marquette moment that I personally witnessed ... but he's still not one of my top 10 Warriors. That's how challenging this kind of thing can be.

My Marquette Top 10 (in alphabetical order):

Jimmy Butler
Jim Chones
Jae Crowder
Bo Ellis
Markus Howard
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Earl Tatum
Dwyane Wade

I know many will disagree, and that's cool. That's what fan sites are for. Hopefully we'll all keep the discussion civil.

My biggest omission probably will be seen as George Thompson. Well, I never saw him play one second of basketball, not even a 2-minute highlight reel. I'm sure he was great, but he's a black-and-white photo to me. So that's personal bias ... as will be the case for everybody's top 10. Gun at my head, if I had to replace one of the 10 with him, probably Tatum or Butler.

Lackey? I know he's another fave of Al-era Scoopers. But he averaged 14.1 pts, 8.5 rebs over two seasons and lost twice in the second round despite being surrounded by outstanding players. So while I'm sure he was great (I was 10-11 years old when he was at MU), I never remember seeing him play and his stats weren't "special," so he's not in my top 10.

More recent guys I hate leaving off: Lazar, Jerel, Diener, Wes, Dom, Novak, Smith.

Let's have fun with this. And let's try to remember that nobody's a "moron" or an "idiot" just because he or she has a different top 10. Maybe for other reasons, but not that - ha!

[Goose]

82

I will try and get my top ten put together this weekend. Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation. In addition, because a large number of players comes from the Al era it is not Al bias, it is a fact that highest percent of coveted recruits played at MU during that time. Furthermore, about 8-10 had extremely well rounded college careers, which included winning at high level.

I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.

[real chili 83]

Mike, I agree with you...there is no way to get this list "right".

You and I saw two players that far outperformed all other Warriors with a particular skill. Worthen with handling the ball was amazing...but not a top 10 all time. Artie Green...wow, dude had wings.  Best leaper ever, but not a top 10 all time.

So, to Goose's point, is Markus the all time pure shooter, but not all time top 10????

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.

Scoop:


Goose:

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Scoop:


Goose:

[jsglow]

I think your list is very close 82.  We're splitting hairs but Brute Force simply has to be there replacing one of the modern guys.

And I don't necessarily think the 50+ crowd is biased.  What the youngins' simply can't appreciate is that we were one of 6 or 8 national 'blue bloods' back in the day and our roster reflected it.  Guys like George, and especially Dean, were among the most recruited guys in America.  Wooden wanted Meminger badly. It was just different then pre-ESPN.

[hairy worthen]

My Marquette Top 10 (in alphabetical order):

Jimmy Butler
Jim Chones
Jae Crowder
Bo Ellis
Markus Howard
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Earl Tatum
Dwyane Wade

Christ are you a moron.
This list is pretty close for me. I wouldnt include Butler, or Crowder. Howard would be borderline for me. George Thompson deserves to be on the list.

[MU82]

82

I will try and get my top ten put together this weekend. Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation. In addition, because a large number of players comes from the Al era it is not Al bias, it is a fact that highest percent of coveted recruits played at MU during that time. Furthermore, about 8-10 had extremely well rounded college careers, which included winning at high level.

I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.

Good points, Goose. I thought about that as I wrote it. I mean, I think Babe Ruth is the greatest ballplayer of all time, and he died 12 years before I was born. But I know a heck of a lot more about Babe than I do George Thompson or Bob Lackey.

I don't think guys who play before one's time should be dismissed from the conversation or excluded. It's just one of many factors that might go into a decision.

I didn't mean "bias" as a negative word. We all have them, myself included, and not just about Marquette's top-10 players. I agree with everything you say about Al's best players -- I'm pretty sure all of them would have excelled in this or any era, too.

Looking forward to seeing your list.

I think your list is very close 82.  We're splitting hairs but Brute Force simply has to be there replacing one of the modern guys.

And I don't necessarily think the 50+ crowd is biased.  What the youngins' simply can't appreciate is that we were one of 6 or 8 national 'blue bloods' back in the day and our roster reflected it.  Guys like George, and especially Dean, were among the most recruited guys in America.  Wooden wanted Meminger badly. It was just different then pre-ESPN.

Again, I didn't mean "bias" in a bad way, nor was I trying to suggest that only they are biased. Every human is biased about a number of things. If I went to MU when Wade was there, you would never, ever, ever convince me that any player, not even Al's best, were better than he was.

Forte ... I admit I never even considered him. Thanks for bringing him up.

This list is pretty close for me. I wouldnt include Butler, or Crowder. Howard would be borderline for me. George Thompson deserves to be on the list.

Reasonable take IMHO.

Looking forward to seeing some more lists.

[TallTitan34]

Jim Chones
Jae Crowder
Bo Ellis
Lazar Hayward
Markus Howard
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
George Thompson
Dwyane Wade (#1)

[TallTitan34]

To defend my Lazar pick:

3rd in career points
5th in career rebounds
10th in career steals

[TallTitan34]

Side note: Jim Chones should have his number retired.

[Jay Bee]

To defend my Lazar pick:

3rd in career points
5th in career rebounds
10th in career steals

More games played

[TallTitan34]

More games played

True. More games played in a MU uniform than anyone else.

Still give him the nod for both scoring and rebounds.

[brewcity77]

Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation.

This is tough for me. Do I put guys like Chones and Lee on the list who obviously were given the highest accolades and by any reasonable measure should be included when I didn't see them? Isn't that basically the same as just looking at stats, which is what many use to dismiss players like Howard?

I firmly believe the eye test alone is flawed, just as stats alone without context are flawed. I'm not sure to how to rank someone I never regularly saw, especially when the advanced numbers for the era don't exist.

[Cheeks]

MU82...good comments,  No perfect list, game has changed so much.  Good topic. Thank you

[Goose]

82

As a rule, I think you are in the middle on these debates and value your opinion. Serious question, if Howard played at UW or another BE school, do you think most on here who be throwing out the same praise? My guess, there would be a lot of praise on scoring and ripping remainder of his game.
Truthfully, that is a big part of how I evaluate guys. If they played on a rival how we grade their game. My comments on Howard being one trick pony would be the same if he played on another team.

[MU82]

To defend my Lazar pick:

3rd in career points
5th in career rebounds
10th in career steals

I like your list, even though it's somewhat different from mine. No need to defend Lazar -- a hell of a college player who impressed at least one NBA GM enough to draft him in the first round. I don't know as a player should get "punished" or "downgraded" for playing in as many games as he did. One could argue that's a major positive -- never hurt, always there, always ready to give his all.

Lazar also played much of his career out of position, never complained (that I know of); instead used it to his advantage.

Mike, I agree with you...there is no way to get this list "right".

You and I saw two players that far outperformed all other Warriors with a particular skill. Worthen with handling the ball was amazing...but not a top 10 all time. Artie Green...wow, dude had wings.  Best leaper ever, but not a top 10 all time.

So, to Goose's point, is Markus the all time pure shooter, but not all time top 10????

Thanks, chili. I don't know as there's any need (for most of us at least) to get it "right." It's a fun conversation.

Good point about being the best, or among the best, at certain skills. However, I do think there's quite a bit of difference between being one of the fine ballhandler/passers for 2 years (Worthen), one of the great leapers but a mediocre player (Artie), and the all-time leading scorer by a wide margin. That latter skill is a pretty important skill IMHO.

This is tough for me. Do I put guys like Chones and Lee on the list who obviously were given the highest accolades and by any reasonable measure should be included when I didn't see them? Isn't that basically the same as just looking at stats, which is what many use to dismiss players like Howard?

I firmly believe the eye test alone is flawed, just as stats alone without context are flawed. I'm not sure to how to rank someone I never regularly saw, especially when the advanced numbers for the era don't exist.

I agree with you about "the eye test alone," but I also don't think the eye test should be ignored. For example, in addition to putting up excellent numbers and helping a team reach the Final Four, Mo Lucas was scary good -- a physically imposing, dominating freak of nature.

Agree with your general point, too. Will any of us put Kojis on his/her list? He averaged 19 pts, 15 rebs and went on to have a 12-year NBA career that included 2 All-Star appearances. But he practically played in the peach-basket era (exaggeration intented).

[AZMarqfan]

Christ are you a moron.
This list is pretty close for me. I wouldnt include Butler, or Crowder. Howard would be borderline for me. George Thompson deserves to be on the list.

I'd include Gardner over Butler or Crowder, who were solid over their years.  Davante took over games in ways those guys didn't, and played 4 years.  I think Butler, Crowder, Hayward, McNeal, Matthews, James, and DJO all siphon votes from each other as all played with other outstanding players.  I'd probably have Travis Diener on the list ahead of that group as well, maybe Novak.  And Wardle was incredible without much other firepower on those teams. 

[MU82]

82

As a rule, I think you are in the middle on these debates and value your opinion. Serious question, if Howard played at UW or another BE school, do you think most on here who be throwing out the same praise? My guess, there would be a lot of praise on scoring and ripping remainder of his game.
Truthfully, that is a big part of how I evaluate guys. If they played on a rival how we grade their game. My comments on Howard being one trick pony would be the same if he played on another team.

Legit question, Goose, and I generally am a big try-stepping-in-someone-else's-shoes kind of guy.

Not easy for me to answer this because (thankfully) he isn't on another team, but to be honest it probably would depend on what I've seen him do to our team.

Do you think USC and K-State and Buffalo fans are saying, "Aw, he's a one-trick pony"? Or do you think they are saying, "He's one of the most awesome offensive players I've ever seen"? On the other end of the spectrum, I wouldn't be surprised if Murray State fans think he is the most overrated player in recent history. "People were saying it was gonna be Ja against that guy? Please."

I have "hated" (in a fan sense) guys like Powell, Ponds, McDermott, Tripucka, Garcia, Paxson, Aguirre, etc, etc, etc (not to mention numerous coaches) over the years. And when they weren't able to beat us, I'm sure I enjoyed ripping on them. But I like to think I also begrudgingly tipped my hat to them for a job well done when it was deserved.

Not sure if I really answered your question, but I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few current Big East coaches rank Markus pretty high on their lists of all-time Marquette players.

[4everwarriors]

If Woj had bedder talent, wood Howard bee watt he is, hey?

[MU82]

If Woj had bedder talent, wood Howard bee watt he is, hey?

Impossible question to answer with anything but, "We'll never know."

[🏀]

Lazar is a terrible, terrible pick

[TallTitan34]

Lazar is a terrible, terrible pick

I knew you'd hate that one.

[🏀]

I knew you'd hate that one.

Your Scoop membership should be suspended.

[Class71]

I think your list is very close 82.  We're splitting hairs but Brute Force simply has to be there replacing one of the modern guys.

And I don't necessarily think the 50+ crowd is biased.  What the youngins' simply can't appreciate is that we were one of 6 or 8 national 'blue bloods' back in the day and our roster reflected it.  Guys like George, and especially Dean, were among the most recruited guys in America.  Wooden wanted Meminger badly. It was just different then pre-ESPN.

Agreed. George is on my list without question. His scoring was done the hard way, only 2 point shots, only in 3 years and not time clock.