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Author Topic: Brand new season, same old Wojo.  (Read 13745 times)

MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2019, 09:16:45 AM »
My frustration is that some coaches - O'Neil and Buzz come to mind - get every ounce of effort and talent from their teams. .

How much "effort" did Buzz get out of his team that got crushed by Vanderbilt in 2011, annihilated by Florida and beaten by Green Bay in 2012, throttled by Ohio State in 2013, dominated by NC and Fla and Cuse in NCAA tourney games, etc?

I loved having Buzz as our coach, but let's not pretend that he -- and O'Neill and Crean and Al -- didn't preside over any clunkers.

Our guys had a clunker of a first half yesterday, and yes, it included a few times where the Warriors flat got out-worked. I hated seeing that, yelled at my TV a couple of times. We all hate that.

But then our guys played a great second half, totally out-hustled and out-battled a good B14 team. Afterward, several players said Wojo's halftime message was received.

Look, there isn't a single Scooper who doesn't want our program to be great. But to lose one's shyte in the first half of our first real game ... it's simply silly (to use a kinder word than I probably should).

And now you find yourself digging in to justify your silliness.

Can't wait for all the "I told you so's" when we have a clunker and actually lose. Those games will happen. They happened to Buzz and O'Neill, too.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

GOO

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2019, 09:18:44 AM »
TAMU, in many respects, you are right. I would take issue with the Big East stats, tho.  Last year the BE was weak, so might not accurately reflect the actual improvement.  That, however, is speculation on my part.

The evidence in the BE tournament and the short stay in the NCAA tournament showed a very different story.

My frustration is that some coaches - O'Neil and Buzz come to mind - get every ounce of effort and talent from their teams.  Others have great talent, knock on the door of real success but never win the big one (Digger, maybe?).  I worry that Wojo is the worst kind, can recruit all kinds of talent but does just enough to not get fired.

.

We are all biased.  We all see the world through our own filters.  Recognizing one's bias, recognizing the filter we look through and interpret the world through, is always the first step to overcoming and growing.  But only after accepting the bias we possess, can we stop trying to justify our bias and thoughts based upon bias and be freed to see the world as it is, not as we perceive it to be.

Coleman

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2019, 09:22:35 AM »
GREAT WIN!

« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:23:15 AM by Coleman »

tower912

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2019, 09:25:39 AM »
Driving in snow, we are all at the mercy of those who are scared.    Of those who think they are competent, but are actually delusional about their supposed competence.    Of the distracted.    Of those who's tires really need to be replaced but they are too dumb to think that through.   Of those who's nervousness causes them to wrench their steering wheels and overcorrect in a panic when they feel the tires slip a little.     And we all get hung up because of bad drivers.   A metaphor, when you stop to think about it.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2019, 09:34:39 AM »
Driving in snow, we are all at the mercy of those who are scared.    Of those who think they are competent, but are actually delusional about their supposed competence.    Of the distracted.    Of those who's tires really need to be replaced but they are too dumb to think that through.   Of those who's nervousness causes them to wrench their steering wheels and overcorrect in a panic when they feel the tires slip a little.     And we all get hung up because of bad drivers.   A metaphor, when you stop to think about it.

We are all biased.  We all see the world through our own filters.  Recognizing one's bias, recognizing the filter we look through and interpret the world through, is always the first step to overcoming and growing.  But only after accepting the bias we possess, can we stop trying to justify our bias and thoughts based upon bias and be freed to see the world as it is, not as we perceive it to be.

Y'all are deep! My mind is totally blown, man!!
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2019, 10:39:08 AM »
How much "effort" did Buzz get out of his team that got crushed by Vanderbilt in 2011, annihilated by Florida and beaten by Green Bay in 2012, throttled by Ohio State in 2013, dominated by NC and Fla and Cuse in NCAA tourney games, etc?

I loved having Buzz as our coach, but let's not pretend that he -- and O'Neill and Crean and Al -- didn't preside over any clunkers.

Our guys had a clunker of a first half yesterday, and yes, it included a few times where the Warriors flat got out-worked. I hated seeing that, yelled at my TV a couple of times. We all hate that.

But then our guys played a great second half, totally out-hustled and out-battled a good B14 team. Afterward, several players said Wojo's halftime message was received.

Look, there isn't a single Scooper who doesn't want our program to be great. But to lose one's shyte in the first half of our first real game ... it's simply silly (to use a kinder word than I probably should).

And now you find yourself digging in to justify your silliness.

Can't wait for all the "I told you so's" when we have a clunker and actually lose. Those games will happen. They happened to Buzz and O'Neill, too.

For crying out loud, I'm talking about overall, not specific games. You are right, every team has clunkers.


f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2019, 10:40:22 AM »
Y'all are deep! My mind is totally blown, man!!

Me, too.  Damn...

Galway Eagle

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2019, 10:47:46 AM »
For crying out loud, I'm talking about overall, not specific games. You are right, every team has clunkers.

You aren't though. You showed that after responding to TAMU's post saying ignore the BE play and focus on the last three games of the season.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Marquette4life

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2019, 10:50:56 AM »
2003 at Louisville. That’s the only one I can think of in my time.
Number 1 Nova?

MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2019, 11:15:40 AM »
For crying out loud, I'm talking about overall, not specific games. You are right, every team has clunkers.

You aren't though. You showed that after responding to TAMU's post saying ignore the BE play and focus on the last three games of the season.

What Galway said.

How was our "effort" during our multiple long winning streaks last season? What were the "legacy issues" during our 23-4 start?

Do you really think lack of "effort" was the reason we lost those games at the end of the season? Was the "effort" lousy in that Seton Hall game, which turned into a near-war?

"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

NotAnAlum

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #110 on: November 14, 2019, 12:07:08 PM »
First of all the Purdue game last night was a great win.  The guys played tough and several guys (particularly Koby) had to come through in new roles and that is very important in this new season.

I think you can be a fan and be complementary of adjustments Wojo made at half time which had a role in turning around this game without giving Wojo a pass on his offensive game plan in general and having concerns about how things will play out this season if his offensive approach doesn’t change.

I’ve been told that Wojo runs a “flow” offense that doesn’t have a lot of plays and relies on the players to read and react.  I’ve talked to very knowledgeable basketball people including past MU players who tell me players love this kind of offense because of its freedom.  I’m sure that freedom is great with the NBA talent Duke recruits or even a college All Americans like Markus.  But my question is “is this the right offense to win games given the talent Marquette has”.

Matt Painter runs a much more structured offense and you could see it on display last night particularly in the first half.  You can see that his plays are designed to get specific players into positions that are most likely to give them easy shots for what each player does well.  It was obvious in the first half when Purdue got easy shot after easy shot and they went in.  Purdue primarily gets the balls to spots by passing.  They can do that because they know the play and where the other players are expected to be.  In fact while its obvious that MU turned up the defense in the second half Purdue still had a number of clean looks (in general cleaner that MU was getting) they just didn’t go in.  I have a theory on why they missed more in the second half.  Painter wants his guys to play tight in your face defense all the time and in the first half it gave MU fits.  I believe Purdue simply wore down in the second half because its hard to play 40 minutes of tight defense when you are still getting into shape and don’t have the longest bench.  My theory is bolstered by the fact that Purdue pretty much did the same thing last week against Texas getting up by double digits only to lose in the second half.

The only reason I’m going into detail about Purdue is to contrast that to MU.  With our offense it seems like there is often a lot of standing around waiting for the guy with the ball to do something.  There is not nearly as much crisp passing.  Ball movement depends on dribbling not passing and its this dependence on dribbling to advance the ball that leads to MU’s turnover problems.  It also leads to a lot of indecision after the ball handler gets the ball.  You can almost see ? marks hanging over their heads as they try to decide “what should I do next”.

I’m sorry but I’ve got to just say it.  I don’t like MU’s offense under Wojo.  I don’t think it sets up players to play to their strengths while hiding weaknesses.  I don’t think it results in easy baskets against established half court defenses.  And in the end while players will rise to the occasion and make great shots based on pure athletic ability its not a good long term strategy to count on that all the time.  I don’t believe Wojo will change so I’ve just got to hope our talent is good enough to win enough games to make for a good season.

So now its on to Wisconsin where we'll once again so the clash of a disciplined structured offense against Wojo's flow.  I believe MU has more talent and therefore should win.  Lets hope it works out that way.

tower912

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #111 on: November 14, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
Ok.  But it has worked well statistically for a number of consecutive years.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

6746jonesr

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2019, 12:11:33 PM »
Sorry you don't like the offense, but it is hard to blame Wojo for all the missed open shots.  We shot 10% from the 3 point line in the first half.  We shoot 30 per cent ( which is a bit low), it is an entirely different game.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2019, 12:15:38 PM »
First of all the Purdue game last night was a great win.  The guys played tough and several guys (particularly Koby) had to come through in new roles and that is very important in this new season.

I think you can be a fan and be complementary of adjustments Wojo made at half time which had a role in turning around this game without giving Wojo a pass on his offensive game plan in general and having concerns about how things will play out this season if his offensive approach doesn’t change.

I’ve been told that Wojo runs a “flow” offense that doesn’t have a lot of plays and relies on the players to read and react.  I’ve talked to very knowledgeable basketball people including past MU players who tell me players love this kind of offense because of its freedom.  I’m sure that freedom is great with the NBA talent Duke recruits or even a college All Americans like Markus.  But my question is “is this the right offense to win games given the talent Marquette has”.


Wojo got it from Coach K...who got it from Bobby Knight.  A motion offense that gives players the ability to move and react IMO is the best offense to use when you have experienced and talented offensive players.  But it also can take awhile before it is running smoothly, which has happened in the last couple of years.  (tower mentioned it somewhere) 


I’m sorry but I’ve got to just say it.  I don’t like MU’s offense under Wojo.  I don’t think it sets up players to play to their strengths while hiding weaknesses.  I don’t think it results in easy baskets against established half court defenses.

Wojo's offenses have been great since he has been here.  I think the problem in the half court has to do with a lack of players who can beat someone off the dribble and an over reliance on those who can shoot.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

oldwarrior81

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2019, 12:18:44 PM »
without the 18 second chance points, the Purdue offense was quite ineffective last night.  Scoring 37 points in 40 minutes.


I also looked over at a couple Mississippi State fan sites to get their feel for Ben Howland.  Funny to read that there are a few that are getting annoyed with the weave they run on top.  One saying their offense looks like something from the pre-shot clock days.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 12:21:39 PM by oldwarrior81 »

NickelDimer

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #115 on: November 14, 2019, 12:44:20 PM »
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.
G.T.S.T

RushmoreAcademy

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2019, 01:04:36 PM »
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.

That's simply not true.

Coleman

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #117 on: November 14, 2019, 01:26:49 PM »
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.

nah

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2019, 01:41:41 PM »
You said this before I could, TAMU.

This is not a great Marquette team but it has an opportunity to be a good one. Our guys will have stretches of incompetence, and also stretches of outstanding play. Of course, all that is the case for most teams.

Yes, let the team get their seas legs and chemistry before jumping off the deep end. 

MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #119 on: November 14, 2019, 02:02:58 PM »
One NCAA tourney win in Howland's last 8 years -- 4 at UCLA and 4 at MSU. Three seasons that failed to produce a winning record in that span. Zero NCAA tourney wins in his last 6 years. Only NCAA tourney appearance at MSU resulted in loss to Liberty. His final game as UCLA coach was 20-point tourney loss to an 11-seed.

Hiring a desperate retread with some skeletons in the closet would not have been good for our program. I wonder if Howland was even considered by MU brass. I hope not.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #120 on: November 14, 2019, 02:08:57 PM »
Fans be fansing

It’s what they do.
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Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #121 on: November 14, 2019, 02:09:55 PM »
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.

Some of the shots taken at Wojo and some players in the game thread are worse than both.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #122 on: November 15, 2019, 04:18:54 PM »
What Galway said.

How was our "effort" during our multiple long winning streaks last season? What were the "legacy issues" during our 23-4 start?

Do you really think lack of "effort" was the reason we lost those games at the end of the season? Was the "effort" lousy in that Seton Hall game, which turned into a near-war?

This isn't about "effort".  I used that term only to highlight that some coaches get the max out of the talent they have.  Others, like Wojo to this point, do not.  My comments have NOTHING to do with the players and their effort.  Nor are the comments related to expecting perfection - these are kids and they are going to have off days. 

My comments are 100% about the coach - his abilities (recruiting) and deficiencies.  A good coach is able to correct weak spots and adjust when needed.  Wojo did a good job vs. Purdue (and I hope it continues) but if we are all being honest, have adjustments been his strong suit? 

To his ability to correct weak spots and how it relates to the 23-4 start last year - and I am not trying to fight with you here - are you trying to say that we did not have fairly consistent problems with:

1) man-to-man defense
2) rebounding on both ends
3) getting decent shots, especially when Markus wasn't on the floor
4) defensive rotations
5) not-entirely-crisp passing resulting in turnovers

We had players make incredible efforts last year - Markus and Sam (offensively) and Theo and Sacar (defensively), to name a handful - during points of the season that helped us win games we probably shouldn't have.  If I recall correctly, there was some metric that indicated MU was far "luckier" early in the season that could reasonably be expected.  Unfortunately, we returned to the mean later in the year.

Many of the issues I listed have been around for the last few years and this is what I am highlighting.  People have said 3 or 4 years ago we had poor defense but that the last two seasons was much improved.  And someone, appropriately, pointed out some of these stats.  That said, and correct me if I am wrong, but aren't some of the things on the above list problems that sill plagued us last season (and were apparent in the Purdue game for periods of time)?  We have had a bunch of different player and the same weaknesses.  That is not a player thing, that's a coach thing.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 04:37:24 PM by f/k/a humanlung »

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #123 on: November 15, 2019, 04:42:24 PM »

Wojo got it from Coach K...who got it from Bobby Knight.  A motion offense that gives players the ability to move and react IMO is the best offense to use when you have experienced and talented offensive players.  But it also can take awhile before it is running smoothly, which has happened in the last couple of years.  (tower mentioned it somewhere) 


Wojo's offenses have been great since he has been here.  I think the problem in the half court has to do with a lack of players who can beat someone off the dribble and an over reliance on those who can shoot.

Are u frickin kidding me Fluffy.  Wojo and coach ks offense in no way shape or form even comes close to being similar to knights motion offense.  Nothing even close.  Completely diferent ,  the coach knight offense was a true motion.  Purdue ran some of the same,  knights offense rarely if ever set a ball screen.  Knights motion consisted of screening away and setting numerous ball screens off the ball.  Again almost never a ball screen.  MUs is mostly ball  screen dependent trying to create mismatches and help side recovery.
Truly an absolutely horrible post to compare what MU and Duke run to what knight ran.  Just really stupid.  Both effective but entirely, completely different. Wow
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 04:45:13 PM by Mr. Sand-Knit »
Political free board, plz leave your clever quips in your clever mind.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #124 on: November 15, 2019, 04:46:52 PM »
Are u frickin kidding me Fluffy.  Wojo and coach ks offense in no way shape or form even comes close to being similar to knights motion offense.  Nothing even close.  Completely diferent ,  the coach knight offense was a true motion.  Purdue ran some of the same,  knights offense rarely if ever set a ball screen.  Knights motion consisted of screening away and setting numerous ball screens off the ball.  Again almost never a ball screen.  MUs is mostly ball  screen dependent trying to create mismatches and help side recovery.
Truly an absolutely horrible post to compare what MU and Duke run to what knight ran.  Just really stupid.  Both effective but entirely, completely different. Wow

Are you able to comment without insulting people? I'm truly curious
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

 

anything