Permission to Protest?

[Galway Eagle]

Cmon man.  Don't scoop and drive.  Not only do you not scoop well, you don't drive safely either.  Don't jeopardize lives to make a freaking internet post.

Rush hour though but you're right I had it coming

[Cheeks]

Not to speak for TinyTim, but this meme has been floating around on Facebook for awhile.  I think the point is that "Antifa" isn't a set organization, and that while parts of the movement tend toward violence, much of it isn't.  So being "anti facist" takes many forms.

Fair point, but can you not say that about many organizations or "movements", yet one side highlights the worst attributes or parts of that movement? 

[mu03eng]

Well I wish I could say it was nice knowing this thread, but that wouldn't be true.

[Cheeks]

Antifa's roots are in fighting Nazis, Fascists, white nationalist skinheads.  Confronting them directly and being willing to engage physically.  I will not defend every action of every member of Antifa.   I will, however, applaud the concept of standing against Nazis, Fascists, and white nationalists.

Fine, the danger comes in when they decide to label anyone they don't care for....Nazis, Fascists and white nationalists.  Sort of like people throwing out racism at every turn.  Someone can justify anything in their mind if they just label their foes in a way that conveniently fits their narrative, even if it is untrue.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fair point, but can you not say that about many organizations or "movements", yet one side highlights the worst attributes or parts of that movement? 

That's kind of what people do. They marginalize and criticize movements they don't care for by pointing out their worst behaviors.

[rocket surgeon]

If you put even ten seconds of effort into educating yourself you would learn that many Unite the Right types also wear body armor, helmets, and other protective gear and many also show up to rallies incognito.

i actually have never seen these pics of a faction of the MAGA crowd concealing their identities-i do know it's not the rule for them as it is for antifa however.

   no need for the 10 seconds thing dude-this is how the ugly back n forth chit starts.  i understand you probably know more than anyone here on the board, but you might want to start with some anger management

    i'm against all people concealing their identity during protests.  it creates a hostile environment before anything has even started.  if one needs to conceal themselves for a protest, it can't be that worthy of their cause.  if they are afraid for their safety, the police should be present.  i did hear that the police weren't very effective in portland during one their protests however.  but that is another subject that would probably get contentious so...never mind

[Cheeks]

That's kind of what people do. They marginalize and criticize movements they don't care for by pointing out their worst behaviors.

Agree.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/

When you claim you "can't shout 'fire' in a crowded theater" you're relying on a 90+ year old case (Schenk v. US) that has been repeatedly and universally backed away from in every free speech case that has followed it. And, the "fire" being shouted in the case was about someone protesting the draft. But don't trust me, a dude on a message board, let's here it from the far more eloquent first amendment lawyer, Ken White:

"Holmes' famous quote is the go-to argument by appeal to authority for anyone who wants to suggest that some particular utterance is not protected by the First Amendment. Its relentless overuse is annoying and unpersuasive to most people concerned with the actual history and progress of free speech jurisprudence. People tend to cite the "fire in a crowded theater" quote for two reasons, both bolstered by Holmes' fame. First, they trot out the Holmes quote for the proposition that not all speech is protected by the First Amendment. But this is not in dispute. Saying it is not an apt or persuasive argument for the proposition that some particular speech is unprotected, any more than saying "well, some speech is protected by the First Amendment" is a persuasive argument to the contrary. Second, people tend to cite Holmes to imply that there is some undisclosed legal authority showing that the speech they are criticizing is not protected by the First Amendment. This is dishonest at worst and unconvincing at best. If you have a pertinent case showing that particular speech falls outside the First Amendment, you don't have to rely on a 90-year-old rhetorical flourish to support your argument.

Holmes' quote is the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."

Thanks for this.  Popehat's a fun twitter follow.  He's an extreme legal libertarian who its fed up with prosecutorial misconduct, government overreach, and pretty much any law or practice that he feels violates first amendment rights.  Progressives and non-Trumpian conservatives can find him interesting.  (He thinks Trump is completely corrupt though.)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

i actually have never seen these pics of a faction of the MAGA crowd concealing their identities-i do know it's not the rule for them as it is for antifa however.

Rocket, Antifa is not an actual organization. It is a movement that a bunch of different people subscribe to. There is no "rules" for antifa members.

And if you've never seen pictures like that....I suggest you broaden your new sources.

[Galway Eagle]

Fine, the danger comes in when they decide to label anyone they don't care for....Nazis, Fascists and white nationalists.  Sort of like people throwing out racism at every turn.  Someone can justify anything in their mind if they just label their foes in a way that conveniently fits their narrative, even if it is untrue.

This is true but it's also fair to point out that there is a strong presence of neo nazi, neo fascist, and white nationalist organizations at many of the rallies which draw Antifa counter protestors. Not to mention the intimidation used with guns that a certain side uses. Of course there's well meaning conservatives caught in the crossfire but between the two Id choose those that fight hate through hate as having a morally higher ground than the one that aligns itself with hateful views for no good reason.

[Cheeks]

This is true but it's also fair to point out that there is a strong presence of neo nazi, neo fascist, and white nationalist organizations at many of the rallies which draw Antifa counter protestors. Not to mention the intimidation used with guns that a certain side uses. Of course there's well meaning conservatives caught in the crossfire but between the two Id choose those that fight hate through hate as having a morally higher ground than the one that aligns itself with hateful views for no good reason.

Again, define what is hateful is going to be different to everybody.

Let's use an example of illegal immigrants.   Some illegal immigrants are just trying to escape oppression, find a better life in the USA.  Some come here to criminalize activity with drugs, robbery, murder.  Therefore, if one is against illegal immigration are they hateful bigots or against criminal activity?

I think we could all go through many topics and do this and one side will say it is 100% hate and other group will say it absolutely is not, and more than likely neither is truly correct while both have arguments to support their claim.

I personally find it ironic when historically one side has been about free speech and non-violence is now clamping down on any free speech that goes against their beliefs and violence is now justified.  Times have changed.

[Jon]

Comparing Gen Eisenhower to the craven cowards who comprise the antifa rabble is not just absurd but demeans the honor and sacrifice of the brave men and women who destroyed nation-state fascism in the world war.

Suggesting that anyone in the current American government is a fascist on a par with Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy is not just fatuous but dangerous.

Tell you what Tiny Boy - if you are so deeply concerned about injustice in this world I suggest you head down to the local recruiting office and enlist in the United States Marine Corps. If you have the stones and discipline to make it through boot camp you can go to hot dusty places and fight real oppression of human rights and dignity.

I'll bet my three Bronze Stars with combat vees you aren't man enough to take up the sword in the defense of freedom. Easy to armchair quarterback. Gutless sh1t.

[Cheeks]

Comparing Gen Eisenhower to the craven cowards who comprise the antifa rabble is not just absurd but demeans the honor and sacrifice of the brave men and women who destroyed nation-state fascism in the world war.

Suggesting that anyone in the current American government is a fascist on a par with Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy is not just fatuous but dangerous.

Tell you what Tiny Boy - if you are so deeply concerned about injustice in this world I suggest you head down to the local recruiting office and enlist in the United States Marine Corps. If you have the stones and discipline to make it through boot camp you can go to hot dusty places and fight real oppression of human rights and dignity.

I'll bet my three Bronze Stars with combat vees you aren't man enough to take up the sword in the defense of freedom. Easy to armchair quarterback. Gutless sh1t.

Careful, your post is going to be called dumb or the dumbest....because Antifa are "anti-fascists".  LOL.  Agreed, the comparison to Ike is maybe one of the most absurd things I have ever seen and having anyone with an ounce of wits to defend it is truly amazing.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

NM....straying too much into politics for my liking

[Galway Eagle]

Again, define what is hateful is going to be different to everybody.

Let's use an example of illegal immigrants.   Some illegal immigrants are just trying to escape oppression, find a better life in the USA.  Some come here to criminalize activity with drugs, robbery, murder.  Therefore, if one is against illegal immigration are they hateful bigots or against criminal activity?

I think we could all go through many topics and do this and one side will say it is 100% hate and other group will say it absolutely is not, and more than likely neither is truly correct while both have arguments to support their claim.

I personally find it ironic when historically one side has been about free speech and non-violence is now clamping down on any free speech that goes against their beliefs and violence is now justified.  Times have changed.

Chico's that's arguing for arguing sake. If a well meaning anti immigration conservative is there then then whatever. But There's a large difference between anti immigrant views and those wearing SS, iron Crosses, swaztikas, etc and I think on some level you know those individuals are there and are primarily those who Antifa are there to counter protest, not people like you or rocket who they just vehemently disagree with.

[Cheeks]

Chico's that's arguing for arguing sake. If a well meaning anti immigration conservative is there then then whatever. But There's a large difference between anti immigrant views and those wearing SS, iron Crosses, swaztikas, etc and I think on some level you know those individuals are there and are primarily those who Antifa are there to counter protest, not people like you or rocket who they just vehemently disagree with.

The latest videos I saw were of no people wearing what you suggested, though many were wearing red white and blue, one journalist got crushed and assaulted....a gay, conservative journalist that wasn’t just in the crossfire, he was targeted.

Antifa is not there to just counter protest, though that may be the case often.  There are plenty of videos showing their actions including instigating, targeting and attacking peaceful protests.

[jficke13]

lol I thought this thread is about a university policy.

[jficke13]

Besides, when I skimmed through the policy the other day after hearing about this little kerfuffle, it seemed like a self-inflicted PR wound rather than a substantively objectionable policy. Most of the things were pretty self-evident (no entering offices without permission, don't hang stuff on university property), and it seemed like everything they forbid ought to have already some level of regulation in other places. As in, why a special "demonstration" policy to forbid students from barging into a professor/faculty office without permission when, presumably, that's already against the rules?

Why court the backlash with the "demonstration" framing?

[Galway Eagle]

The latest videos I saw were of no people wearing what you suggested, though many were wearing red white and blue, one journalist got crushed and assaulted....a gay, conservative journalist that wasn’t just in the crossfire, he was targeted.

Antifa is not there to just counter protest, though that may be the case often.  There are plenty of videos showing their actions including instigating, targeting and attacking peaceful protests.

Which protest are you referring to? Or just protests in general? I mean technically anybody even associated with Proud Boys could be called supporting a hateful organization as they're following an organization founded by a self proclaimed islamophobe, who has also referred to asians as slopes and riceballs. And since the main group behind say the Portland rally then there's certainly hate groups worth counter protesting. Additionally, there was plenty of people in the documentation of Charlottsville wearing all sorts of SS, Iron Crosses, etc I'd say you need to look harder at your photo and videos of that one.

I don't know enough about said gay conservative journalist to try and argue about that, but if it was Milo Yiannopolous he had it coming as much as any other hate espousing individual does.

[Benny B]

That's kind of what people do. They marginalize and criticize movements they don't care for by pointing out their worst behaviors.

Pretty sad that this behavior has been so normalized that we simply dismiss it as human nature.  But hey, pointing out the worst is a great way to get your base to turn out at the polls.

Think of how much more civil we would be to each other if we had compulsory voting.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Comparing Gen Eisenhower to the craven cowards who comprise the antifa rabble is not just absurd but demeans the honor and sacrifice of the brave men and women who destroyed nation-state fascism in the world war.

Suggesting that anyone in the current American government is a fascist on a par with Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy is not just fatuous but dangerous.

Tell you what Tiny Boy - if you are so deeply concerned about injustice in this world I suggest you head down to the local recruiting office and enlist in the United States Marine Corps. If you have the stones and discipline to make it through boot camp you can go to hot dusty places and fight real oppression of human rights and dignity.

I'll bet my three Bronze Stars with combat vees you aren't man enough to take up the sword in the defense of freedom. Easy to armchair quarterback. Gutless sh1t.

Internet tough guy is bloviating again.

The military has been used and abused by this country for the sake of "freedom" for years when in reality it has just been used as a means to extend power.  Ike was right when he stated: "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."

So thank you very much for your service, but sorry if I think that people such as yourself have been largely mislead into thinking you were fighting for something worthwhile, when in reality you volunteered to support mostly a projection of power that in the end wasn't always necessary and left a bunch of carnage in its wake.

So I'm not joining the military.  I'm not going to scramble my brains for the sake of the shareholders of Raython and Lockheed Martin.  I am going to work to improve the world around me in my own ways.  I'm sure they don't rise to your standards but I don't really care.

[Lighthouse 84]

Thanks for this.  Popehat's a fun twitter follow. 

"Popehat"-Fluffy? 

That's just eerie....

IBTL.

[Jables1604]

Comparing Gen Eisenhower to the craven cowards who comprise the antifa rabble is not just absurd but demeans the honor and sacrifice of the brave men and women who destroyed nation-state fascism in the world war.

Suggesting that anyone in the current American government is a fascist on a par with Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy is not just fatuous but dangerous.

Tell you what Tiny Boy - if you are so deeply concerned about injustice in this world I suggest you head down to the local recruiting office and enlist in the United States Marine Corps. If you have the stones and discipline to make it through boot camp you can go to hot dusty places and fight real oppression of human rights and dignity.

I'll bet my three Bronze Stars with combat vees you aren't man enough to take up the sword in the defense of freedom. Easy to armchair quarterback. Gutless sh1t.

*yawn*

[Jockey]

Comparing Gen Eisenhower to the craven cowards who comprise the antifa rabble is not just absurd but demeans the honor and sacrifice of the brave men and women who destroyed nation-state fascism in the world war.

Suggesting that anyone in the current American government is a fascist on a par with Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy is not just fatuous but dangerous.

Tell you what Tiny Boy - if you are so deeply concerned about injustice in this world I suggest you head down to the local recruiting office and enlist in the United States Marine Corps. If you have the stones and discipline to make it through boot camp you can go to hot dusty places and fight real oppression of human rights and dignity.

I'll bet my three Bronze Stars with combat vees you aren't man enough to take up the sword in the defense of freedom. Easy to armchair quarterback. Gutless sh1t.

Please keep posting posts like this. My wife is entertained to no end by your narcissistic bloviating. She also gets a kick out of your attacks on me - so keep those coming, as well.

[rocket surgeon]

Comparing Gen Eisenhower to the craven cowards who comprise the antifa rabble is not just absurd but demeans the honor and sacrifice of the brave men and women who destroyed nation-state fascism in the world war.

Suggesting that anyone in the current American government is a fascist on a par with Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy is not just fatuous but dangerous.

Tell you what Tiny Boy - if you are so deeply concerned about injustice in this world I suggest you head down to the local recruiting office and enlist in the United States Marine Corps. If you have the stones and discipline to make it through boot camp you can go to hot dusty places and fight real oppression of human rights and dignity.

I'll bet my three Bronze Stars with combat vees you aren't man enough to take up the sword in the defense of freedom. Easy to armchair quarterback. Gutless sh1t.

we are living in a whole new world jonny.  not many under 40 today will ever understand how and why this country has the freedoms it does.  the training, dedication and perseverance under circumstances many cannot nor care to even fathom-sad.  i am always in awe with the utmost respect for our military and our police.  it's an honor to know you and it ain't bragging if you can back it up.  thank you for all you have sacrificed