Crowder & Hayward to HOF

[Nukem2]

What does that has to do with players profiting off their likeness?

What does players profiting off their likenesses have to do with attending college (whether in a sport or not).   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What does players profiting off their likenesses have to do with attending college (whether in a sport or not).   

It has to do with it because it's a restriction placed on them that is not placed on any other student. That seems wrong to me.

[Nukem2]

It has to do with it because it's a restriction placed on them that is not placed on any other student. That seems wrong to me.

Did you read the  parenthetical there....   

[Cheeks]

It has to do with it because it's a restriction placed on them that is not placed on any other student. That seems wrong to me.

Can all the other kids go on foreign trips paid for by the athletic dept? 

I think we can all acknowledge some people get to do some things that others don’t and vice versa.  I’m going to bet if you put a poll out to MU students if they could get room and board paid, travel around country and sometimes abroad, play in front of adoring fans, set your self up for your future earnings, access to well heeled alumni, be on tv, have tutors paid for, etc as one option or the other option is to be able to cash in on their likeness what do you think they would choose?

But let’s keep playing this game that the student athletes cannot do what Johnny regular student can, but ignore everything that the student athlete does get to do that Johnny regular can only dream about.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Personally allowing another way for a minority of players to make gains will not be good for the game of college b-ball.  It will cause more steering of players by large corporations to a set of schools (ie shoe companies).

If I were a true commissioner of the ncaa (ie actually had power and not undermined by the blue bloods) — I would:

1. Setup a system that requires two year commitment (get the 1 and dones out)

2. Tax institutions based on revenue generation, including all revenue including shoe deals

3. Setup lifetime scholarships for one bachelors degree and pay some amount for the min two year commitment.

I think this could level the playing field and create more parity by getting the one and dones out of the system (moves some of the sneaker/agent money elsewhere). Ensuring that everyone is receiving a base level of comp reduces the desire to go to Arizona for $50k.

[Nukem2]

Personally allowing another way for a minority of players to make gains will not be good for the game of college b-ball.  It will cause more steering of players by large corporations to a set of schools (ie shoe companies).

If I were a true commissioner of the ncaa (ie actually had power and not undermined by the blue bloods) — I would:

1. Setup a system that requires two year commitment (get the 1 and dones out)

2. Tax institutions based on revenue generation, including all revenue including shoe deals

3. Setup lifetime scholarships for one bachelors degree and pay some amount for the min two year commitment.

I think this could level the playing field and create more parity by getting the one and dones out of the system (moves some of the sneaker/agent money elsewhere). Ensuring that everyone is receiving a base level of comp reduces the desire to go to Arizona for $50k.

The one and dones will probably be gone when the new NBA players agreement comes out in the near future along with the NBAs increased continuing commitment to the G-league.  That’s the biggest root issue.  Establishing a 2 or whatever year commitment is a non-starter as it would be unenforceable without a tie in to the NBAPA.  #3 is already much on the table following the Rice Commission report.  As for #2, that ain’t gonna happen.

[Jay Bee]

The one and dones will probably be gone when the new NBA players agreement comes out in the near future along with the NBAs increased continuing commitment to the G-league.  That’s the biggest root issue.

Ah... so the biggest root issue is the big dog in the free market.

[Nukem2]

Ah... so the biggest root issue is the big dog in the free market.

Well, those biggest dogs will soon be in the NBA draft out of HS.  More power to them as they need not go to college (though, they did not have to in the first place). 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Can all the other kids go on foreign trips paid for by the athletic dept? 

I think we can all acknowledge some people get to do some things that others don’t and vice versa.  I’m going to bet if you put a poll out to MU students if they could get room and board paid, travel around country and sometimes abroad, play in front of adoring fans, set your self up for your future earnings, access to well heeled alumni, be on tv, have tutors paid for, etc as one option or the other option is to be able to cash in on their likeness what do you think they would choose?

But let’s keep playing this game that the student athletes cannot do what Johnny regular student can, but ignore everything that the student athlete does get to do that Johnny regular can only dream about.

????

The basketball players generate more revenue so they are entitled to more compensation than other students. That's why they get to go on things like foreign tours. That has nothing to do with whether or not players should be able to profit off their likeness.

The argument made is "players should be able to profit of their likeness." Your counterargument is "other students don't get to go on foreign tours". How are the two connected?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Did you read the  parenthetical there....   

I did. How was my response wrong?

[Nukem2]

????

The basketball players generate more revenue so they are entitled to more compensation than other students. That's why they get to go on things like foreign tours. That has nothing to do with whether or not players should be able to profit off their likeness.

The argument made is "players should be able to profit of their likeness." Your counterargument is "other students don't get to go on foreign tours". How are the two connected?

The basketball players are very lucky that, for whatever reasons over the years, more eyes watch basketball.  They really are not any different than guys or gals on the volleyball or whatever teams.  Teams that are sponsored by the school.  One happens to make money (hopefully, as some schools obviously do better in that respect) that helps finance the others.  The cast of individual basketball players constantly changes while the school is still there.  Sure, one guy may prop the team up in a given year, but he is gone soon.  The institution is still there and there are new players.  Just my take. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The basketball players are very lucky that, for whatever reasons over the years, more eyes watch basketball.  They really are not any different than guys or gals on the volleyball or whatever teams.  Teams that are sponsored by the school.  One happens to make money (hopefully, as some schools obviously do better in that respect) that helps finance the others.  The cast of individual basketball players constantly changes while the school is still there.  Sure, one guy may prop the team up in a given year, but he is gone soon.  The institution is still there and there are new players.  Just my take.

Okay....but why is that reason that the players shouldn't be able to profit off their likeness? Are you saying that if they profit off their likeness, than some of that money is owed to their association with the school? Sure, I can get on board with that and I'm certain that the schools would get their cut. But that's not a reason to restrict the players from profitting off their likeness.

[MU82]

A friend of mine asked for a raise not long ago. He told me his boss said something like, "You get to go on business trips that others don't. And you get to work overtime, so you already make more money than most of your co-workers."

My friend said he told his boss: "I get to go on business trips? It's my job to go on business trips, and I am willing to spend time away from my family to help this company. I get to work overtime? The fact is I need to work overtime, again to help this company, and I earn every penny of that OT pay. Neither of those things should have anything to do with whether my salary is raised. I deserve a raise, and you know it."

Post-script: He said he didn't get the full raise he was hoping for, but he did get a decent raise, and he's reasonably happy about it.

College basketball players "get" to play a sport they love ... and they are required to put an incredible number of hours into being part of the team. Many of those hours are spent doing less fun stuff -- film study, injury rehab, game-planning, etc.

They "get" to go on trips -- as part of their job -- and it is a job, requiring more hours of work than many full-time employees.

They "get" to wear nice sneakers and clothing -- which the coach and school get paid handsomely for (but they don't receive a dime for, at least not legally).

They "get" scholarships -- as do many other athletes, some theater majors, some college newspaper editors, etc.

They get exposure, again for doing their job.

None of which means they should be prohibited from profiting from their likenesses.

[brewcity77]

Personally allowing another way for a minority of players to make gains will not be good for the game of college b-ball.

Are you saying a minority of college basketball players will be able to profit off their likeness? I would vociferously and wholeheartedly disagree. I would put the low end number closer to 95% at minimum. I believe the last EA Sports NCAA game had 325 teams. Today they would probably aim for 350 or more and would offer some level of compensation to everyone from the stars to the walk-ons. Those games thrive off rosters and reality. And the member institutions will still get their billions.

And yes, billions is 100% accurate. Just because they divide the pie and it's spread out over years doesn't change that we are talking about a multi-billion dollar business, and that's just for the tournament and not including the regular season and conference tournies.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Are you saying a minority of college basketball players will be able to profit off their likeness? I would vociferously and wholeheartedly disagree. I would put the low end number closer to 95% at minimum. I believe the last EA Sports NCAA game had 325 teams. Today they would probably aim for 350 or more and would offer some level of compensation to everyone from the stars to the walk-ons. Those games thrive off rosters and reality. And the member institutions will still get their billions.

And yes, billions is 100% accurate. Just because they divide the pie and it's spread out over years doesn't change that we are talking about a multi-billion dollar business, and that's just for the tournament and not including the regular season and conference tournies.

I am saying that in the current system this will be exploited to channel a ton of money to a small number of players.  It will create a legal way to sign players one year early and as such will create a scenario where corporations will steer said player to a place where that investment pays off the best.  Likely would further reduce the competitiveness of college b-ball. And yes on a value basis a minority will capture a vast majority of the value.  Will some walk-on get a few bucks to promote the local restaurant — sure.  But that is chump change to the year early bidding war that Nike and UA will put on the table for Zion.

So in my mind if you want to flow value to players it has to be equal.  Look I don’t have a problem with paying kids.  I just think if changes are made, the implications to the competitiveness of the game needs to be front and center. 

[Nukem2]

A friend of mine asked for a raise not long ago. He told me his boss said something like, "You get to go on business trips that others don't. And you get to work overtime, so you already make more money than most of your co-workers."

My friend said he told his boss: "I get to go on business trips? It's my job to go on business trips, and I am willing to spend time away from my family to help this company. I get to work overtime? The fact is I need to work overtime, again to help this company, and I earn every penny of that OT pay. Neither of those things should have anything to do with whether my salary is raised. I deserve a raise, and you know it."

Post-script: He said he didn't get the full raise he was hoping for, but he did get a decent raise, and he's reasonably happy about it.

College basketball players "get" to play a sport they love ... and they are required to put an incredible number of hours into being part of the team. Many of those hours are spent doing less fun stuff -- film study, injury rehab, game-planning, etc.

They "get" to go on trips -- as part of their job -- and it is a job, requiring more hours of work than many full-time employees.

They "get" to wear nice sneakers and clothing -- which the coach and school get paid handsomely for (but they don't receive a dime for, at least not legally).

They "get" scholarships -- as do many other athletes, some theater majors, some college newspaper editors, etc.

They get exposure, again for doing their job.

None of which means they should be prohibited from profiting from their likenesses.

Well, they”got” what they wanted.  Could have chosen something else.

[brewcity77]

But that is chump change to the year early bidding war that Nike and UA will put on the table for Zion.

The early bidding war starts years before they get to college.

[MU82]

Well, they”got” what they wanted.  Could have chosen something else.

Sure, any employee -- which is what scholarship athletes are -- could always "choose something else." But is that really the answer we're always gonna go with on such issues?

Coal miners are dying ... could have chosen something else. It's true, but is it really the right point to make?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The early bidding war starts years before they get to college.

Yes that’s my point.  Any effort to legitimize it will make it worse and would be bad for the college game in my opinion.     

[brewcity77]

Yes that’s my point.  Any effort to legitimize it will make it worse and would be bad for the college game in my opinion.   

But what about the student athletes? Right now that bidding war is lining the pockets of handlers and family members rather than the kids that actually have the value. I'd rather the kids get the money they are worth than the system that's already bad for the college game and is seldom benefiting the kids earning the money.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

But what about the student athletes? Right now that bidding war is lining the pockets of handlers and family members rather than the kids that actually have the value. I'd rather the kids get the money they are worth than the system that's already bad for the college game and is seldom benefiting the kids earning the money.

IMO it doesn’t solve legacy problem and exasperates/creates new ones.  I don’t think the handlers go away, it just rearranges itself.  You don’t and that’s fine. 

[real chili 83]

Sure, any employee -- which is what scholarship athletes are -- could always "choose something else." But is that really the answer we're always gonna go with on such issues?

Coal miners are dying ... could have chosen something else. It's true, but is it really the right point to make?

Mike,

Are you equating college sports with coal mining?  I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that the families of deceased miners “might” not see it the same way. 

After all, playing a sport in exchange for a free college education is the same as having to work in a coal mine for 40 years, or until it kills you.

[Cheeks]

A friend of mine asked for a raise not long ago. He told me his boss said something like, "You get to go on business trips that others don't. And you get to work overtime, so you already make more money than most of your co-workers."

My friend said he told his boss: "I get to go on business trips? It's my job to go on business trips, and I am willing to spend time away from my family to help this company. I get to work overtime? The fact is I need to work overtime, again to help this company, and I earn every penny of that OT pay. Neither of those things should have anything to do with whether my salary is raised. I deserve a raise, and you know it."

Post-script: He said he didn't get the full raise he was hoping for, but he did get a decent raise, and he's reasonably happy about it.

College basketball players "get" to play a sport they love ... and they are required to put an incredible number of hours into being part of the team. Many of those hours are spent doing less fun stuff -- film study, injury rehab, game-planning, etc.

They "get" to go on trips -- as part of their job -- and it is a job, requiring more hours of work than many full-time employees.

They "get" to wear nice sneakers and clothing -- which the coach and school get paid handsomely for (but they don't receive a dime for, at least not legally).

They "get" scholarships -- as do many other athletes, some theater majors, some college newspaper editors, etc.

They get exposure, again for doing their job.

None of which means they should be prohibited from profiting from their likenesses.

The less fun stuff we all have to do, it is part of honing one’s craft.  Learning to break down an opponent and watching film is paramount to future success in the same way a normal Joe stays ups to speed on certifications and less fun stuff.

The business trip analogy was odd.  Whomever that boss was, really missed the mark.  That said, a business trip and going on the road to play a game are not the same thing having gone on 100’s of business trips in my life and more than a dozen road trips with sports teams.  No comparison.

[Cheeks]

Sure, any employee -- which is what scholarship athletes are -- could always "choose something else." But is that really the answer we're always gonna go with on such issues?

Coal miners are dying ... could have chosen something else. It's true, but is it really the right point to make?

You state this as if it were fact, something your rail on others for.  A scholarship athlete is not an employee, not by a legal standard or an ethical one.  I don’t think you are equating coal miners to college athletes, though I have seen a few folks here (you???) use plantation when describing college athletes so who knows what you are trying to say there.

[Cheeks]

But what about the student athletes? Right now that bidding war is lining the pockets of handlers and family members rather than the kids that actually have the value. I'd rather the kids get the money they are worth than the system that's already bad for the college game and is seldom benefiting the kids earning the money.

Family members aren’t tied to the kids?  And again, how often is this happening, to the 1%.

Get rid of the one and done, let these 1%’ers go directly to the show, force these NBA GMs to actually evaluate talent and watch how many of them strike out.  Others can go to the G League, and some will.  I suspect a lot of families will talk to their kids and say life is about choices, no different than high school baseball players do now.  Some go into the draft and some go to college.  I would much prefer it go this way to clean up the nonsense.