SI research report on Big East Pre Season Rankings 2019-20

[Herman Cain]

Steele took over a team that had earned a 1 seed and returned 4/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (though one decided to go overseas after Steele was hired)

Wojo took over a team that had missed the NIT and returned 1/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (and the one was Derrick Wilson)

Not even close to "same first year circumstances"

Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.

[dgies9156]

Different world back then.  Massively different.

If I read your middle paragraph correctly, we simply haven't been successful since Al.  Not one coach since has made us consistently top 10.  In fact, we have only had a top 10 avg finish one time since Al left and that was 1978. 

http://collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.XUJQZMplChA


I'm just fine winning, winning often, staying out of trouble, and occasionally having a strong run.

What I would like us to be is a team with sustained success. A winning team that's consistently Top 10 and capable of contending for a natty. Maybe we'll get there, but this year for me is make-or-break. As I have said elsewhere, we need a Top 10 recruiting class and a few wins in the NCAA.

Hausergate notwithstanding, we need a Top 3 Big East finish this year, a "4" seed or better in the NCAA and a very good 2020 incoming class. That's the beginning of sustainable. We do these things and I'm sold that we're headed where we should be.

Staying out of trouble, "winning often" (whatever that means) and having an occasional strong run doesn't do it for a 1970s era Warrior. It just doesn't. Sounds to me like Dayton or God-forbid, DePaul. if we're headed in this direction, Jean Lenti-Ponsetto is your athletic director.

[Its DJOver]

I am saying that X has a continuity of their program.  Steele so far has given several good early data points that point to that sustainability of X success.

Also Henry was not an All American.

MU had the exact same thing before Buzz shat on the program, both in terms of results and off-court issues.

Henry was an all american coming out of HS, he just didn't get to compete in the McD All American game because he broke his hand.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.

He only ever gave one rebuttal. And that was "the team had 7 former top 100 players on it, how bad could it have been?"

But IIRC, you say recruit rankings are not worth the paper they are written on...

[Its DJOver]

Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.

Then you should be banned just like him. Oh wait, what happened to MUFINY?

[MU82]

Please reference all Ners rebuttals. I agree with all of them.

All any of us need to know. Ever.

[Cheeks]

What I would like us to be is a team with sustained success. A winning team that's consistently Top 10 and capable of contending for a natty. Maybe we'll get there, but this year for me is make-or-break. As I have said elsewhere, we need a Top 10 recruiting class and a few wins in the NCAA.

Hausergate notwithstanding, we need a Top 3 Big East finish this year, a "4" seed or better in the NCAA and a very good 2020 incoming class. That's the beginning of sustainable. We do these things and I'm sold that we're headed where we should be.

Staying out of trouble, "winning often" (whatever that means) and having an occasional strong run doesn't do it for a 1970s era Warrior. It just doesn't. Sounds to me like Dayton or God-forbid, DePaul. if we're headed in this direction, Jean Lenti-Ponsetto is your athletic director.

It sounds nothing like Dayton or DePaul, with all due respect.  There is massive room between competing for a Natty and being DePaul.  We can be very good, ncaa tournament team most of the time, occasional deep run and not have to cheat or have a holes represent the team while being successful. 

I get what the old timers experienced, but that world is gone.  College basketball is nothing like it was then, kids have way more options now.  We can still be very good, but most of the items that benefited MU in the 70's no longer exist, or exist for many schools now which took away advantages.  Because that no longer exist# doesn't mean the alternative is DePaul.

[jesmu84]

I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis.  The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success.  As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.

MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause.   MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that  fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn.  For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of  The Johnnies and DePaul.

My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years.  Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.

1. Sure. But, as evidenced by coaching failures all over the NCAA, there seems to be as good of a chance at a new coach doing worse.

2. The irony in your optimistic outcome of Wojo moving on, is that you continuously bad-mouth our administration and think very little of them.. yet believe in them enough to make a successful next hire.

[Herman Cain]

1. Sure. But, as evidenced by coaching failures all over the NCAA, there seems to be as good of a chance at a new coach doing worse.

2. The irony in your optimistic outcome of Wojo moving on, is that you continuously bad-mouth our administration and think very little of them.. yet believe in them enough to make a successful next hire.

Scholl is a very good guy. I have confidence in him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Scholl is a very good guy. I have confidence in him.

So by extension do you have a lot of confidence in Wojo?  Cause Scholl does

[Loose Cannon]

Scholl is a very good guy. I have confidence in him.

And there you Go.

[Herman Cain]

So by extension do you have a lot of confidence in Wojo?  Cause Scholl does

Transitive theory does not apply. Scholl has to do what Lovell says.

[Scoop Snoop]

It sounds nothing like Dayton or DePaul, with all due respect.  There is massive room between competing for a Natty and being DePaul.  We can be very good, ncaa tournament team most of the time, occasional deep run and not have to cheat or have a holes represent the team while being successful. 

I get what the old timers experienced, but that world is gone.  College basketball is nothing like it was then, kids have way more options now.  We can still be very good, but most of the items that benefited MU in the 70's no longer exist, or exist for many schools now which took away advantages.  Because that no longer exist# doesn't mean the alternative is DePaul.

I am an "old timer" from the Al era but I agree that it is more than just a matter of decades- college basketball is different today. Just one example, sustained defense (Al's forte'),is much easier when you do not have to deal with a pesky 30 second shot clock. However, I also (for the most part) get what dgies is saying- let's never take our eyes off getting another Natty. The difference is that I get that it may take a long, long time so i will enjoy whatever success Marquette has on the court in the meantime. I may croak before Marquette wins another Natty.

Getting back to Al- my favorite Al quote (I may not have it perfectly) was his retort to LSU coach Maravich after he brushed off the importance of defense before the game with MU: "If you believe that, your ass is grassed and I'm your lawnmower".

[Uncle Rico]

Transitive theory does not apply. Scholl has to do what Lovell says.

Then how can Scholl hire who he wants? 

[Herman Cain]

Then how can Scholl hire who he wants?

When Lovell gives the okay to dump to Wojo. AD then heads the search .

[willie warrior]

Means no Hot Seat for Wojo. That is he will not be fired. He is well liked. He is the kind of coach MU wants. Results are secondary. Win or loose he will  continue as head coach. Time to move on.

Never. There can always be improvement. And Wojo is mediocre.

[MU82]

When Lovell gives the okay to dump to Wojo. AD then heads the search .

So you have confidence in Scholl's ability to serve as Lovell's puppet?

[Its DJOver]

So you have confidence in Scholl's ability to serve as Lovell's puppet?

Keep in mind that this is the same bot that thinks that Wojo is mediocre, but Stan is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Herman Cain]

So you have confidence in Scholl's ability to serve as Lovell's puppet?

When Scholl came in Wojo was in place. Scholl is a savvy and sophisticated guy and will wait until given the green light to make changes.

When the board starts to put pressure on Lovell action will happen. That is how these things work.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Transitive theory does not apply. Scholl has to do what Lovell says.

You're not addressing what I said. Scholl himself is a huge Wojo fan, loves what he is doing and thinks he can do more. So if you are confident in Scholl, you should also be confident in Wojo.

[Its DJOver]

You're not addressing what I said. Scholl himself is a huge Wojo fan, loves what he is doing and thinks he can do more. So if you are confident in Scholl, you should also be confident in Wojo.

This is where he goes full Deonte mode and proclaims that even though Scholl had repeatedly public endorsed Wojo, he can't say what he really think, and only tells Herman in their secret meeting right after Herman is done showing Osa around.

[Herman Cain]

You're not addressing what I said. Scholl himself is a huge Wojo fan, loves what he is doing and thinks he can do more. So if you are confident in Scholl, you should also be confident in Wojo.

It is Scholls job to say good things about the people in his employ in the Athletic Department .  That is what a talented AD does . The good words come right until the end.

So yes,  when the time comes and Lovell and the Board say Uncle , I am very confident in Scholls ability to get us a better coach then we have now. Until then it's sea shells and balloons.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It is Scholls job to say good things about the people in his employ in the Athletic Department .  That is what a talented AD does . The good words come right until the end.

It is his job. In this case he also means them. To say otherwise is to spread a lie about a man you claim to respect.

[Herman Cain]

It is his job. In this case he also means them. To say otherwise is to spread a lie about a man you claim to respect.

Those are your words not mine.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Those are your words not mine.

So you're not implying that Scholl doesn't have confidence in Wojo and is only keeping him around because Lovell is forcing him to?