Gangster Capitalism/Admissions Scandal

[Cheeks]

So much so that the rate of admissions for Asian-Americans at Harvard has grown 29 percent over the past decade.

That’s nice, but you know as well as I do that % growth stats all are anchored to a baseline from which they are measured.  If a league that only has one AA coach hires one more, their hiring of AA coaches doubled and shows growth in that area....it may still show massive under employment based on what one would expect statistically for that group. 

The point that Asian Americans are making is they have been discriminated against despite stellar achievements.

For the record, since Tsmith and others like to take lot shots, the Asian American community has been an important part of my life for many years.  I was the first student in MU history to earn a minor in East Asian Studies.  Went on for my Masters at U of Kansas in East Asian Languages and Cultures.  Have lived in an Asian community for a third of my life.  90% of my kids friends are Asian, many of our friends, majority of my employees, etc.  This is an important issue to this community and we are in tune with it because many that are impacted are our friends and neighbors.

[StillAWarrior]

I am not accusing Harvard of discriminating against African-Americans. Not even sure where you came up with the idea that I might be.

Mixed you up with another poster.  My apologies.

[JWags85]

What's interesting to me about this commentary is that the students I met from Miami were always top notch and the people I've met who went to OSU were never very impressive to me.  This may have to do with being in a Sales and Marketing Business Fraternity where the Miami chapter was consistently one of the best in the nation, so I was just exposed to some of the better students.  However, anecdotally this has been my experience.

Were you in PSE?! If so, I was part of that chapter.  One of the most transformational parts of my time at Miami to be sure.  And I don't disagree.

It is interesting to read that and to have watched it develop over the years.  By the time my first was considering college, OSU already was the clear "leader" of the Ohio state schools.  My son had absolutely no interest in going to OSU, and didn't even apply.  He applied to Miami, and it was his No.2 pick (it was his parents' No. 1).  He got some money offered, but ultimately he got enough offered at an out-of-state school that made it pretty close in cost to Miami and he went there.  My oldest daughter had a unique college selection process that didn't include any of the in-state schools.  My middle daughter just completed the process.  She applied at OSU (and got in), but wasn't really that interested.  Once again, Miami was her No. 2.  Once again, an out-of-state school offered her enough money to make it workable and she went that route.

My wife and I have pushed Miami hard twice, and have one more chance.  I think for Ohio residents, it's an amazing value.

Totally agree.  Many people outside of Ohio and the Midwest think Miami is a private school.  And in many ways, it operates like one.  With the tuition scholarships and relative size, its a fantastic value.  It has the J Crew U reputation and there are certainly plenty of affluent students, but I knew a sizeable chunk of friends and classmates who were very bright, and got into fantastic private and out of state schools, but went to Miami cause they were first generation college or from lower middle class backgrounds and the tuition burden elsewhere was extreme.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Where did I say it was rough?  As usual, you make up something that I never said.  I stated facts, you went somewhere else.

I know, you mentioned it for no particular reason at all...

[TSmith34, Inc.]

My buddy’s sister was an admissions officer at Duke. 30% of incoming spaces were held for legacy admits, celebrities and their children and children who come from wealth. My wife’s friend went to a Duke with Ralph Lauren’s daughter. The Admissions Director got a $1 million/year seat on the RL board when she left (without graduating).

Now, many of these schools cap admissions, so when the lesser qualified child of a wealthy legacy gets in they’re taking a spot from a qualified individual. That I cannot support.

I agree with all of that

[Cheeks]

I know, you mentioned it for no particular reason at all...

It was a statement of fact.  I also mentioned it because all too often from you guys we get this line...”poor white old men” or variant of that.  As if we also don’t have other experiences, live in minority communities, some are poor, etc....but you and others here love going with that line to try and paint folks a certain way.  Not going to let you get away with it.

[Benny B]

So much so that the rate of admissions for Asian-Americans at Harvard has grown 29 percent over the past decade.

What about Asian-Asians?  Or all all Asians admitted to Harvard automatically granted citizenship?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

It was a statement of fact.  I also mentioned it because all too often from you guys we get this line...”poor white old men” or variant of that.  As if we also don’t have other experiences, live in minority communities, some are poor, etc....but you and others here love going with that line to try and paint folks a certain way.  Not going to let you get away with it.

LOL, as if living in a predominantly Asian American community would subject you to discrimination.  Do tell about your experiences being pulled over for driving while white, stopping randomly and being frisked for being white, asked to prove your citizenship for being white, etc.

[Pakuni]

What about Asian-Asians?  Or all all Asians admitted to Harvard automatically granted citizenship?

I know you're trying hard to be clever, but this makes no sense.

[dgies9156]

What's interesting to me about this commentary is that the students I met from Miami were always top notch and the people.

Yeah, but they went to a school I hate -- March 1978!

[Benny B]

I know you're trying hard to be clever, but this makes no sense.

Because Chinese, Korean, Japanese nationals, etc. are not categorized by schools as "Asian-Americans." 

In other words, I wanted to be sure that your purported 29% increase doesn't in fact refer to Asian nationals, not Asian-Americans.

[Pakuni]

Because Chinese, Korean, Japanese nationals, etc. are not categorized by schools as "Asian-Americans." 

In other words, I wanted to be sure that your purported 29% increase doesn't in fact refer to Asian nationals, not Asian-Americans.

OK. Well, you can rest assured that when I wrote "Asian-Americans" I was speaking of Americans of Asian descent, and not Chinese, Korean, Japanese nationals, etc.

[Disco Hippie]

Were you in PSE?! If so, I was part of that chapter.  One of the most transformational parts of my time at Miami to be sure.  And I don't disagree.

Totally agree.  Many people outside of Ohio and the Midwest think Miami is a private school.  And in many ways, it operates like one.  With the tuition scholarships and relative size, its a fantastic value.  It has the J Crew U reputation and there are certainly plenty of affluent students, but I knew a sizeable chunk of friends and classmates who were very bright, and got into fantastic private and out of state schools, but went to Miami cause they were first generation college or from lower middle class backgrounds and the tuition burden elsewhere was extreme.

Miami is one of the most popular choices for students  at my high school alma mater in the southwestern Connecticut suburbs of NYC.  It’s a pretty savvy crowd so I think they’re all aware that it’s actually not a private and a public school but since they’re all paying out-of-state tuition,  it’s basically private as far as they’re concerned.   Schools like Miami, As well as the better Big 10 flagships for whatever reason have always been a more popular choice for students from wealthy upper middle class suburbs in the Northeast than their own flagship state universities such as UCONN, UMASS, Rutgers. URI, UNH, SUNY, etc.   I have no idea why but suspect it has far more to do with school culture than academic snobbery.  As good as UCONN and Rutgers are academically, and I personally believe they’re every bit as good as the upper half of the big 10 schools,  you can’t compare that experience with going to a place like Wisconsin or Michigan.   The Northeast flagships unfortunately don’t have anywhere near the same culture, spirit or history and strength in Athletics that The Midwestern flagships do.  I have long felt that Marquette is completely ignorant to the amount of students from the Northeast that attend those schools who’s parents are more than willing to pay out-of-state tuition Just so Buffy or Trey can have a great college experience and I think they’re missing an opportunity there .   I’m not saying Marquette can compete for the same kids that Michigan gets but they can certainly compete with those attending places like Miami or UW Madison.   Why they don’t  invest more here is mind-boggling ,  given the college age population decline in the Midwest.  Yes it’s declining here too but it’s still the most densely populated part of the country by far

[Cheeks]

LOL, as if living in a predominantly Asian American community would subject you to discrimination.  Do tell about your experiences being pulled over for driving while white, stopping randomly and being frisked for being white, asked to prove your citizenship for being white, etc.

I can tell you of many experiences that other non Asian kids went through being isolated, beaten up, etc, at the local schools....and since you went there, i can give you examples your smarmy illustration happening in South America, Central America, Philippines and Mexico if you wish...or for that matter the USA, the U.K. and other geographic locations. But hey, you keep going with your myopic unworldly view....you might want to get out more and out of that bubble of yours.  Unfortunately racial attacks can happen to any group and victims can be from any race.  Makes it wrong regardless of who is doing the attacking.

[JWags85]

Miami is one of the most popular choices for students  at my high school alma mater in the southwestern Connecticut suburbs of NYC.  It’s a pretty savvy crowd so I think they’re all aware that it’s actually not a private and a public school but since they’re all paying out-of-state tuition,  it’s basically private as far as they’re concerned.   Schools like Miami, As well as the better Big 10 flagships for whatever reason have always been a more popular choice for students from wealthy upper middle class suburbs in the Northeast than their own flagship state universities such as UCONN, UMASS, Rutgers. URI, UNH, SUNY, etc.   I have no idea why but suspect it has far more to do with school culture than academic snobbery.  As good as UCONN and Rutgers are academically, and I personally believe they’re every bit as good as the upper half of the big 10 schools,  you can’t compare that experience with going to a place like Wisconsin or Michigan.   The Northeast flagships unfortunately don’t have anywhere near the same culture, spirit or history and strength in Athletics that The Midwestern flagships do.  I have long felt that Marquette is completely ignorant to the amount of students from the Northeast that attend those schools who’s parents are more than willing to pay out-of-state tuition Just so Buffy or Trey can have a great college experience and I think they’re missing an opportunity there .   I’m not saying Marquette can compete for the same kids that Michigan gets but they can certainly compete with those attending places like Miami or UW Madison.   Why they don’t  invest more here is mind-boggling ,  given the college age population decline in the Midwest.  Yes it’s declining here too but it’s still the most densely populated part of the country by far

Miami does a very good job with focused recruiting in metros/regions.  They choose target cities in 5-10 year blocks.  The big push around the years I started there was Atlanta, and I went to school with a surprising amount of kids from greater Atlanta given where Miami is.  In my CPG days a couple years ago, I used to work with a market research consultant who was a fellow alum and the alumni coordinator for the DMV area, and she said that Miami had pushed there a bit in the late 90s, and was making a renewed effort.  I suspect Connecticut was one of their first targets years ago, along with Denver. 

Its a very smart approach, and beyond just out of state tuition dollars, it gives you a more diverse student base which makes you an attractive destination as well.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I can tell you of many experiences that other non Asian kids went through being isolated, beaten up, etc, at the local schools

So?  What does this have to do with anything?  You tried to claim some credibility as a "minority" because you are a white guy that lives in an Asian community.  You wanted to imply that this somehow means you were discriminated against and have it rough.  Your story that some kids somewhere were isolated, etc., speaks nothing to your situation.  Tell us all about the times that you were stopped, frisked, arrested, and shot at because you are a white guy.

....and since you went there, i can give you examples your smarmy illustration happening in South America, Central America, Philippines and Mexico if you wish...or for that matter the USA, the U.K. and other geographic locations.

I'm not even going to pretend I can follow this Gish Gallop

But hey, you keep going with your myopic unworldly view....you might want to get out more and out of that bubble of yours.

LMAO.  I understand that you don't know me, and that is both fine and understandable.  But your wild shot in the dark is so unbelievably off base it is freakin' hilarious.

Unfortunately racial attacks can happen to any group and victims can be from any race.  Makes it wrong regardless of who is doing the attacking.

Yes, and?  How does this make you a discriminated against "minority" again?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Miami does a very good job with focused recruiting in metros/regions.  They choose target cities in 5-10 year blocks.  The big push around the years I started there was Atlanta, and I went to school with a surprising amount of kids from greater Atlanta given where Miami is.  In my CPG days a couple years ago, I used to work with a market research consultant who was a fellow alum and the alumni coordinator for the DMV area, and she said that Miami had pushed there a bit in the late 90s, and was making a renewed effort.  I suspect Connecticut was one of their first targets years ago, along with Denver. 

Its a very smart approach, and beyond just out of state tuition dollars, it gives you a more diverse student base which makes you an attractive destination as well.

On a similar note, one of my daughters university finalists was the College of Charleston.  It's a public university with a private feel.  It would have cost the same as attending UConn with the scholarships they gave her.  We attended an accepted student event in Connecticut and learned the school primarily draws from the Carolinas and Georgia and also the Greater New York City area and Southern New England. 

[Herman Cain]

On a similar note, one of my daughters university finalists was the College of Charleston.  It's a public university with a private feel.  It would have cost the same as attending UConn with the scholarships they gave her.  We attended an accepted student event in Connecticut and learned the school primarily draws from the Carolinas and Georgia and also the Greater New York City area and Southern New England.

It is also a very huge party and drugs school. Just in case you didn't know. Several kids we know from our area went down there and died of overdose. 

[Coleman]

It is also a very huge party and drugs school. Just in case you didn't know. Several kids we know from our area went down there and died of overdose.

Southern Charm is worth a view. They are all coke heads and I think a few of them attended C of C.

[Cheeks]

So?  What does this have to do with anything?  You tried to claim some credibility as a "minority" because you are a white guy that lives in an Asian community.  You wanted to imply that this somehow means you were discriminated against and have it rough.  Your story that some kids somewhere were isolated, etc., speaks nothing to your situation.  Tell us all about the times that you were stopped, frisked, arrested, and shot at because you are a white guy.
I'm not even going to pretend I can follow this Gish Gallop
LMAO.  I understand that you don't know me, and that is both fine and understandable.  But your wild shot in the dark is so unbelievably off base it is freakin' hilarious.
Yes, and?  How does this make you a discriminated against "minority" again?

Wrong.  If my kids were discriminated against in their school because they were different, how does that not affect me?  Simply because of their race.  The examples I gave which you refuse to acknowledge are that people of all walks of life, races, class, creed, have been profiled, killed, injured, at because they were the wrong place at the wrong time, or drove the wrong car, were the wrong race, wrong gender, etc.  You seem to ignore that, which I cannot understand, but you and I often don't understand each other.  I can have you go through any number of many cities out here and we can see how you are treated, care to go for an experiment since you have all the answers? 

[Pakuni]

Here's a new one. Mostly well-to-do suburban parents giving up custody of their kids (on paper) to get them scholarships and financial aid they don't deserve.


https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190729/its-a-scam--suburban-parents-give-up-custody-of-kids-to-get-need-based-college-aid

[Cheeks]

I, for one, am shocked that people are scamming the system.


Which is again why you go after big fish AND small fish that do the scamming.

[Benny B]

Here's a new one. Mostly well-to-do suburban parents giving up custody of their kids (on paper) to get them scholarships and financial aid they don't deserve.


https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190729/its-a-scam--suburban-parents-give-up-custody-of-kids-to-get-need-based-college-aid

Not surprised by this, but where is it written that parents are obligated to pay for their children's education? (hint: it's not)

Frankly, I don't see this as anything close to the scam that Varsity Blues is... if this was an option known to me when I was in high school, I would have jumped all over it. 

Combined, my parents made enough money to put me over the threshold where I didn't qualify for anything except a subsidized Stafford Loan and a few state grants that didn't move the needle; however, my parents were also recently divorced, which meant no savings (whatever was there went to the lawyers) and twice the living expenses.  Ergo, I was on my own to pay for my own education.  Fortunately, I landed a full ride my junior year and got through grad school on a GA scholarship (tuition only), but mine is a model that cannot be emulated.  Frankly, I got lucky. 

I get it... in the Daily Herald example, this is likely a bunch of families from Barrington and Lake Bluff trying to save enough money to renovate their vacation home in the Seychelles.  But there are a lot of kids out there in the same predicament as I was, and double whammy, tuition now costs 2-3x as much (let alone room and board).  Financial aid eligibility should be determined by who's actually paying, not by who society thinks should pay.  And for those who think this could never be ascertained, it seems to me this could easily be tracked simply by tweaking IRS gift rules to include education payments... get the IRS involved, and watch how fast Dr. Barrington and Counselor Bluffington change their minds about scamming their kids through school.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not surprised by this, but where is it written that parents are obligated to pay for their children's education? (hint: it's not)

It's not, but this is very much against the law, not a "legal loophole" as Pro Publica is describing it.  Are these kids still living at home?  Are their parents still providing for them?

[StillAWarrior]

...however, my parents were also recently divorced, which meant no savings (whatever was there went to the lawyers) and twice the living expenses...

Interestingly, this was one of only two questions that I was asked when speaking with a financial aid official about whether their on-line calculator was an accurate predictor of what I could expect in financial aid.  The financial aide person asked whether we were divorced and supporting two households.  If not, we could expect the on-line calculator to be a pretty reliable tool.

The other question was whether we had any unusually high college expenses for my son who was already in college at the time.