Gangster Capitalism/Admissions Scandal

[Coleman]

There is a great podcast out (Gangster Capitalism) that covers the admission scandal in detail, including audio of the phone calls from the affidavit. It is honestly shocking. Anyone with at least a passing interest in higher education should listen. Yes, Rick Singer and the celebrities who paid him should certainly go to prison, but the failures of the system of college admissions is even more profound than I first imagined. The system is truly broken, and favors the rich more than anyone imagines. It is largely the middle class that is being left out of the process of gaining entry to elite universities, whether through the back door of donations directly to the university or the "side door" that Singer invented.

I kept thinking about some people I knew at MU who came from incredibly wealthy families that were on the verge of failing out the entire time. It does make me wonder whether this is limited to truly elite colleges, or whether backdoor shenanigans are happening at the MUs of the world too.

[Benny B]

It's happening everywhere... the question is to what extent. 

Gross oversimplification alert, but if I were to categorize higher education into the following categories and then order them by frequency of shenanigans* (relative to the student body, not necessarily on an absolute basis) from the highest likelihood to lowest, my list would look like the following:

1) Notre Dame (hell, the only reason they won't accept a dog is because they'd have to accept the stupid bitch's puppies someday)
2) Elite Private
3) Small Private / Liberal Arts
4) Other D-I Private (e.g. MU)
5) Dash Schools
6) Flagship Public / Land Grants


[Excluded from the list are the for-profit institutions and the Ohio State University who will literally admit anyone who obtains a GED in their state.]

*Shenanigans being here defined as any effort to circumvent a completely objective admissions process, whether such actions are deemed "legitimate" or otherwise.

1 & 2 should be obvious.  3 is based on experience... having attended a few years of D-III private, you'd need more than a few hands and feet to count all of the kids who were clearly admitted based on their parents' checking account rather than their ability to count past 10.

Further, I'd put all of the publics at the bottom... logic being that the public schools generally know they're under high levels of scrutiny and subject to FOIA requests, so they go to great lengths to be objective.  That said, the dash schools are much more sensitive to swings in enrollment and are neither subject to nearly the same scrutiny nor the same admission standards of their big brothers.  In other words, if you're [insert name of wealthy Cheesehead] and you want to get your idiot kid into college despite his inability to read a college application, you'd probably stand a better chance of bribing his way into UW-Whitewater than UW-Madison.

That said, yes, I do think it would be easier to pull shenanigans at MU than UW-Whitewater... heck, a few years back, I was mailed "referral cards" to fill in the name of a HS senior who might be interested in MU.  Even if it was devised as a marketing campaign, I have a hard time believing that anyone who had their name referred didn't have his/her application or admission file marked in some capacity.

[Coleman]

It's happening everywhere... the question is to what extent. 

Gross oversimplification alert, but if I were to categorize higher education into the following categories and then order them by frequency of shenanigans* (relative to the student body, not necessarily on an absolute basis) from the highest likelihood to lowest, my list would look like the following:

1) Notre Dame (hell, the only reason they won't accept a dog is because they'd have to accept the stupid bitch's puppies someday)
2) Elite Private
3) Small Private / Liberal Arts
4) Other D-I Private (e.g. MU)
5) Dash Schools
6) Flagship Public / Land Grants


[Excluded from the list are the for-profit institutions and the Ohio State University who will literally admit anyone who obtains a GED in their state.]

*Shenanigans being here defined as any effort to circumvent a completely objective admissions process, whether such actions are deemed "legitimate" or otherwise.

1 & 2 should be obvious.  3 is based on experience... having attended a few years of D-III private, you'd need more than a few hands and feet to count all of the kids who were clearly admitted based on their parents' checking account rather than their ability to count past 10.

Further, I'd put all of the publics at the bottom... logic being that the public schools generally know they're under high levels of scrutiny and subject to FOIA requests, so they go to great lengths to be objective.  That said, the dash schools are much more sensitive to swings in enrollment and are neither subject to nearly the same scrutiny nor the same admission standards of their big brothers.  In other words, if you're [insert name of wealthy Cheesehead] and you want to get your idiot kid into college despite his inability to read a college application, you'd probably stand a better chance of bribing his way into UW-Whitewater than UW-Madison.

That said, yes, I do think it would be easier to pull shenanigans at MU than UW-Whitewater... heck, a few years back, I was mailed "referral cards" to fill in the name of a HS senior who might be interested in MU.  Even if it was devised as a marketing campaign, I have a hard time believing that anyone who had their name referred didn't have his/her application or admission file marked in some capacity.

I think I agree with you for the most part. Interestingly enough University of North Carolina, which is a flagship school, was one of the ones the podcast singled out. They were interviewing a woman from university advancement who said a million dollars was a guarantee for admission unless you had a felony. $500k got you most of the way there, as long as your test scores and grades weren't awful or hadn't been expelled from multiple schools. But maybe UNC is in the same bucket as Ohio State.

I guess I always knew that a big donation got your application "noticed," the same way knowing someone at a company gets your resume noticed. But I always assumed after it was noticed, it was still judged on its merits. You still had to be worthy of entry. But seeing it so brazenly described like a menu item, 1 million dollars for surefire admission, just kind of blew me away.

[StillAWarrior]

[Excluded from the list are the for-profit institutions and the Ohio State University who will literally admit anyone who obtains a GED in their state.]

Believe it or not, times have significantly changed.  When I moved here, OSU was known for its willingness to admit anyone with a pulse.  Now, they turn down a lot of kids (or at least defer them to their Mansfield campus).  As my kids started applying to college I was very surprised to hear how many kids were getting turned down at OSU.  I thought it was still easy to get in.

[JWags85]

Believe it or not, times have significantly changed.  When I moved here, OSU was known for its willingness to admit anyone with a pulse.  Now, they turn down a lot of kids (or at least defer them to their Mansfield campus).  As my kids started applying to college I was very surprised to hear how many kids were getting turned down at OSU.  I thought it was still easy to get in.

OSU is a fantastic example of what radical funding changes can do.  I went to Miami University outside Cincy for undergrad.  Entered in 2003.  At the time, it was as you mentioned.  EVERYONE's safety school.  I actually knew kids who went to OSU for 1-2 years in order to transfer to Miami cause they could easily get in and it would be fun (football, etc...) until they had grades to transfer.

Then the state started aggressively funding scholarships and grants.  I don't remember details but I believe National Merit semifinalists had nearly automatic academic full rides and otherwise aggressively recruiting kids that would otherwise go to Miami, IU, and some of the better private schools in Ohio.  By the time I graduated in 2008, it was a dogfight and Miami was losing out.

I dated a girl in Chicago that was an OSU grad.  Many of her friends had Miami as a backup plan to OSU, or were balancing money from the two when they were deciding.  And OSU started capping admissions from good in state high schools like UW does in Wisconsin.  Which was WILD for me to hear.

I imagine it was actually pretty easy cause every in-state student at Miami was on scholarship.  There was no in-state tuition, rather a pair of scholarships that everyone in-state was granted automatically.  OSU likely worked similarly and could just lever around their scholarship structure with a new aggressively funded pool.

[jesmu84]

There is a great podcast out (Gangster Capitalism) that covers the admission scandal in detail, including audio of the phone calls from the affidavit. It is honestly shocking. Anyone with at least a passing interest in higher education should listen. Yes, Rick Singer and the celebrities who paid him should certainly go to prison, but the failures of the system of college admissions is even more profound than I first imagined. The system is truly broken, and favors the rich more than anyone imagines. It is largely the middle class that is being left out of the process of gaining entry to elite universities, whether through the back door of donations directly to the university or the "side door" that Singer invented.

I kept thinking about some people I knew at MU who came from incredibly wealthy families that were on the verge of failing out the entire time. It does make me wonder whether this is limited to truly elite colleges, or whether backdoor shenanigans are happening at the MUs of the world too.

I hypothesize that that isn't limited to college admissions.

[Cheeks]

There is a great podcast out (Gangster Capitalism) that covers the admission scandal in detail, including audio of the phone calls from the affidavit. It is honestly shocking. Anyone with at least a passing interest in higher education should listen. Yes, Rick Singer and the celebrities who paid him should certainly go to prison, but the failures of the system of college admissions is even more profound than I first imagined. The system is truly broken, and favors the rich more than anyone imagines. It is largely the middle class that is being left out of the process of gaining entry to elite universities, whether through the back door of donations directly to the university or the "side door" that Singer invented.

I kept thinking about some people I knew at MU who came from incredibly wealthy families that were on the verge of failing out the entire time. It does make me wonder whether this is limited to truly elite colleges, or whether backdoor shenanigans are happening at the MUs of the world too.

I am a minority in my town and the general surrounding area....mostly Asian demographic.  I carpool with several Asians, friends of mine the last 15 years.  You should hear how much they feel they are being screwed in the college process.  They have pushed their kids hard to study, a common theme of Asian families, but are not being rewarded to the level they should.  Exceptional test scores and GPAs, but  admissions not happening at the level they should.  Within their community it is causing a rift because the promise of work hard, study hard, test well, get good grades is not manifesting into the payoff at the end.  As a result, some of the kids are rebelling and asking why they should put in the effort if it doesn’t pay off.

For racial groupings, no one performs better than the Asian community in terms of academic achievements, standardized testing, but it is not translating into the admissions rates it should.  Only in the last few years is this starting to gain some traction in the media, but with the typical poo pooing from some that that these families shouldn’t be pissed they aren’t getting into Stanford or Harvard because they are still getting into Penn and UCLA....but that isn’t the point at all and totally lost on those making that argument.

[StillAWarrior]

OSU is a fantastic example of what radical funding changes can do.  I went to Miami University outside Cincy for undergrad.  Entered in 2003.  At the time, it was as you mentioned.  EVERYONE's safety school.  I actually knew kids who went to OSU for 1-2 years in order to transfer to Miami cause they could easily get in and it would be fun (football, etc...) until they had grades to transfer.

Then the state started aggressively funding scholarships and grants.  I don't remember details but I believe National Merit semifinalists had nearly automatic academic full rides and otherwise aggressively recruiting kids that would otherwise go to Miami, IU, and some of the better private schools in Ohio.  By the time I graduated in 2008, it was a dogfight and Miami was losing out.

I dated a girl in Chicago that was an OSU grad.  Many of her friends had Miami as a backup plan to OSU, or were balancing money from the two when they were deciding.  And OSU started capping admissions from good in state high schools like UW does in Wisconsin.  Which was WILD for me to hear.

I imagine it was actually pretty easy cause every in-state student at Miami was on scholarship.  There was no in-state tuition, rather a pair of scholarships that everyone in-state was granted automatically.  OSU likely worked similarly and could just lever around their scholarship structure with a new aggressively funded pool.

It is interesting to read that and to have watched it develop over the years.  By the time my first was considering college, OSU already was the clear "leader" of the Ohio state schools.  My son had absolutely no interest in going to OSU, and didn't even apply.  He applied to Miami, and it was his No.2 pick (it was his parents' No. 1).  He got some money offered, but ultimately he got enough offered at an out-of-state school that made it pretty close in cost to Miami and he went there.  My oldest daughter had a unique college selection process that didn't include any of the in-state schools.  My middle daughter just completed the process.  She applied at OSU (and got in), but wasn't really that interested.  Once again, Miami was her No. 2.  Once again, an out-of-state school offered her enough money to make it workable and she went that route.

My wife and I have pushed Miami hard twice, and have one more chance.  I think for Ohio residents, it's an amazing value.

[Herman Cain]

I think I agree with you for the most part. Interestingly enough University of North Carolina, which is a flagship school, was one of the ones the podcast singled out. They were interviewing a woman from university advancement who said a million dollars was a guarantee for admission unless you had a felony. $500k got you most of the way there, as long as your test scores and grades weren't awful or hadn't been expelled from multiple schools. But maybe UNC is in the same bucket as Ohio State.

I guess I always knew that a big donation got your application "noticed," the same way knowing someone at a company gets your resume noticed. But I always assumed after it was noticed, it was still judged on its merits. You still had to be worthy of entry. But seeing it so brazenly described like a menu item, 1 million dollars for surefire admission, just kind of blew me away.

The back door method of paying for admission is perfectly fine. The school gets money which it can invest in scholarships for those who can not afford to pay. 

Obviously,where things broke down was this bogus side door routine. People either didn't have the money for the back door or were too cheap to pay.

 

[mu03eng]

The biggest negative of the backdoor is that nobody talks about it......

Butt seriously......

Ok, I'm good now. If a bad student gets in on the back of a $1M donation that then funds 5 scholarships for needs based kids not sure that's a bad thing as long as you're transparent about it

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I am a minority in my town and the general surrounding area....mostly Asian demographic.  I carpool with several Asians, friends of mine the last 15 years.  You should hear how much they feel they are being screwed in the college process.  They have pushed their kids hard to study, a common theme of Asian families, but are not being rewarded to the level they should.  Exceptional test scores and GPAs, but  admissions not happening at the level they should.  Within their community it is causing a rift because the promise of work hard, study hard, test well, get good grades is not manifesting into the payoff at the end.  As a result, some of the kids are rebelling and asking why they should put in the effort if it doesn’t pay off.

For racial groupings, no one performs better than the Asian community in terms of academic achievements, standardized testing, but it is not translating into the admissions rates it should.  Only in the last few years is this starting to gain some traction in the media, but with the typical poo pooing from some that that these families shouldn’t be pissed they aren’t getting into Stanford or Harvard because they are still getting into Penn and UCLA....but that isn’t the point at all and totally lost on those making that argument.

Setting aside how rough it must be for you to be a "minority"  ...

We know an admissions officer at Rice.  She has said that the number of perfect or near perfect SAT scores that they receive is ridiculous, and unfortunately that alone is not enough to guarantee admission.  It will certainly get them noticed, but they also want well-rounded kids and those that have shown leadership and initiative, not only great academics.  Obviously I do not know the situation of the people you know, but if families are focusing their kids only on academics to the exclusion of everything else they may not be working in their kids' best interests.

[UWW2MU]

OSU is a fantastic example of what radical funding changes can do.  I went to Miami University outside Cincy for undergrad.  Entered in 2003.  At the time, it was as you mentioned.  EVERYONE's safety school.  I actually knew kids who went to OSU for 1-2 years in order to transfer to Miami cause they could easily get in and it would be fun (football, etc...) until they had grades to transfer.

Then the state started aggressively funding scholarships and grants.  I don't remember details but I believe National Merit semifinalists had nearly automatic academic full rides and otherwise aggressively recruiting kids that would otherwise go to Miami, IU, and some of the better private schools in Ohio.  By the time I graduated in 2008, it was a dogfight and Miami was losing out.

I dated a girl in Chicago that was an OSU grad.  Many of her friends had Miami as a backup plan to OSU, or were balancing money from the two when they were deciding.  And OSU started capping admissions from good in state high schools like UW does in Wisconsin.  Which was WILD for me to hear.

I imagine it was actually pretty easy cause every in-state student at Miami was on scholarship.  There was no in-state tuition, rather a pair of scholarships that everyone in-state was granted automatically.  OSU likely worked similarly and could just lever around their scholarship structure with a new aggressively funded pool.

What's interesting to me about this commentary is that the students I met from Miami were always top notch and the people I've met who went to OSU were never very impressive to me.  This may have to do with being in a Sales and Marketing Business Fraternity where the Miami chapter was consistently one of the best in the nation, so I was just exposed to some of the better students.  However, anecdotally this has been my experience.

[mu03eng]

Seems relevant to the thread, MU is dropping admission tests as a requirement in certain cases.

[StillAWarrior]

Ok, I'm good now. If a bad student gets in on the back of a $1M donation that then funds 5 scholarships for needs based kids not sure that's a bad thing as long as you're transparent about it

Yeah, there is a reason that some schools have multi-billion dollar endowments and offer a great deal of scholarships and financial aid.  Schools like Stanford, Harvard and Yale are essentially tuition free for anyone making under $125k (or something like that).  And other schools to a lesser extent.  One place all the money comes from to provide those scholarships and make those educations accessible is private donations.  I honestly have a hard time getting too worked up about the fact that some people who make those donations expect their kids to be accepted (and then pay full freight for them).  Again, as long as it's transparent.

[Coleman]

I am a minority in my town and the general surrounding area....mostly Asian demographic.  I carpool with several Asians, friends of mine the last 15 years.  You should hear how much they feel they are being screwed in the college process.  They have pushed their kids hard to study, a common theme of Asian families, but are not being rewarded to the level they should.  Exceptional test scores and GPAs, but  admissions not happening at the level they should.  Within their community it is causing a rift because the promise of work hard, study hard, test well, get good grades is not manifesting into the payoff at the end.  As a result, some of the kids are rebelling and asking why they should put in the effort if it doesn’t pay off.

For racial groupings, no one performs better than the Asian community in terms of academic achievements, standardized testing, but it is not translating into the admissions rates it should.  Only in the last few years is this starting to gain some traction in the media, but with the typical poo pooing from some that that these families shouldn’t be pissed they aren’t getting into Stanford or Harvard because they are still getting into Penn and UCLA....but that isn’t the point at all and totally lost on those making that argument.

I think, at least in this instance, this is more about class than race.

[Coleman]

The back door method of paying for admission is perfectly fine. The school gets money which it can invest in scholarships for those who can not afford to pay. 

Obviously,where things broke down was this bogus side door routine. People either didn't have the money for the back door or were too cheap to pay.

I understand your point, but the big loser in all of this is the middle class. There are a finite number of spots in elite schools.

The rich, undeserving pay to get in, which benefits the poor, deserving students. The middle class gets completely left out. The rich student takes a place that a deserving middle class student could have had. I'm not sure I'm ok with that.

[Cheeks]

Setting aside how rough it must be for you to be a "minority"  ...

We know an admissions officer at Rice.  She has said that the number of perfect or near perfect SAT scores that they receive is ridiculous, and unfortunately that alone is not enough to guarantee admission.  It will certainly get them noticed, but they also want well-rounded kids and those that have shown leadership and initiative, not only great academics.  Obviously I do not know the situation of the people you know, but if families are focusing their kids only on academics to the exclusion of everything else they may not be working in their kids' best interests.

Where did I say it was rough?  As usual, you make up something that I never said.  I stated facts, you went somewhere else.

They are not focused only on academics.  In this situation, she was also the school’s athlete of the year, two sport star in basketball and track.  There is a reason why this particular demographic group sued Harvard and others.  They are being discriminated against.

[Cheeks]

I think, at least in this instance, this is more about class than race.

See the Harvard admissions lawsuit

[jesmu84]

See the Harvard admissions lawsuit

https://youtu.be/zm5QVcTI2I8

[Billy Hoyle]

Setting aside how rough it must be for you to be a "minority"  ...

We know an admissions officer at Rice.  She has said that the number of perfect or near perfect SAT scores that they receive is ridiculous, and unfortunately that alone is not enough to guarantee admission.  It will certainly get them noticed, but they also want well-rounded kids and those that have shown leadership and initiative, not only great academics.  Obviously I do not know the situation of the people you know, but if families are focusing their kids only on academics to the exclusion of everything else they may not be working in their kids' best interests.

My buddy’s sister was an admissions officer at Duke. 30% of incoming spaces were held for legacy admits, celebrities and their children and children who come from wealth. My wife’s friend went to a Duke with Ralph Lauren’s daughter. The Admissions Director got a $1 million/year seat on the RL board when she left (without graduating).

Now, many of these schools cap admissions, so when the lesser qualified child of a wealthy legacy gets in they’re taking a spot from a qualified individual. That I cannot support.

[Pakuni]

There is a reason why this particular demographic group sued Harvard and others.  They are being discriminated against.

So much so that the rate of admissions for Asian-Americans at Harvard has grown 29 percent over the past decade.

[mu03eng]

I understand your point, but the big loser in all of this is the middle class. There are a finite number of spots in elite schools.

The rich, undeserving pay to get in, which benefits the poor, deserving students. The middle class gets completely left out. The rich student takes a place that a deserving middle class student could have had. I'm not sure I'm ok with that.

I get the concept of being concerned about the middle class but the middle class by and large got themselves there and they have plenty of opportunities(I say that as someone who grew up lower middle class and was middle, upper middle by the time I went to college).

The rich by and large are generationally rich, the lower class is generationally lower class. It's very difficult to suppress the former AND raise the latter at the same time. If the middle class loses out on some opportunities because of that dynamic I'm fine with it. As long as its transparent, it's this shadowy stuff that really grinds my gears.

[MUBurrow]

I am a minority in my town and the general surrounding area....mostly Asian demographic.  I carpool with several Asians, friends of mine the last 15 years.  You should hear how much they feel they are being screwed in the college process.  They have pushed their kids hard to study, a common theme of Asian families, but are not being rewarded to the level they should.  Exceptional test scores and GPAs, but  admissions not happening at the level they should.  Within their community it is causing a rift because the promise of work hard, study hard, test well, get good grades is not manifesting into the payoff at the end.  As a result, some of the kids are rebelling and asking why they should put in the effort if it doesn’t pay off.

For racial groupings, no one performs better than the Asian community in terms of academic achievements, standardized testing, but it is not translating into the admissions rates it should.  Only in the last few years is this starting to gain some traction in the media, but with the typical poo pooing from some that that these families shouldn’t be pissed they aren’t getting into Stanford or Harvard because they are still getting into Penn and UCLA....but that isn’t the point at all and totally lost on those making that argument.

I would imagine that for states and schools using race as an admissions factor, "overperforming" minority groupings are very difficult to deal with - statistically speaking - when coming up with admissions standards.  Do you admit asians on a performance standard based on the % of applications coming from only asians (which in the case of most underrepresented minority groups, would actually boost their admissions and preserve spots in each class for those groups) or based on the pool of applicants as a whole (which would normally punish underrepresented minority groups, but here would actually give asians disproportionately higher admissions % vis-a-vis other groups)?

Ultimately it comes down to the word "should" doing a lot of work in your sentence bolded above.  And I would imagine its a very geographically diverse question. For me - if some kids from affluent asian communities in CA are having to settle for Penn instead of Harvard, I won't lose sleep over it so long as those spots are actually going to kids from more challenging environments. (I would also submit that asian is far too broad of a category - being asian from affluent tech communities on the west coast means something statistically very different than being asian from a Hmong community in the midwest, for example).  If those spots are going to Aunt Becky's kids, well then yeah that's also a problem.

[StillAWarrior]

So much so that the rate of admissions for Asian-Americans at Harvard has grown 29 percent over the past decade.

I'm guessing that the rate of admissions for African-American students at Harvard has also grown.  Are you contending that they're not being discriminated against?  I'm not sure I'd agree (I'd need more information)...and I'd be surprised if you're taking that position.

The rate of admissions -- without more -- tells very little about whether discrimination is occurring.

[Pakuni]

I'm guessing that the rate of admissions for African-American students at Harvard has also grown.  Are you contending that they're not being discriminated against?  I'm not sure I'd agree (I'd need more information)...and I'd be surprised if you're taking that position.

The rate of admissions -- without more -- tells very little about whether discrimination is occurring.

I am not accusing Harvard of discriminating against African-Americans. Not even sure where you came up with the idea that I might be.

[Cheeks]

So much so that the rate of admissions for Asian-Americans at Harvard has grown 29 percent over the past decade.

That’s nice, but you know as well as I do that % growth stats all are anchored to a baseline from which they are measured.  If a league that only has one AA coach hires one more, their hiring of AA coaches doubled and shows growth in that area....it may still show massive under employment based on what one would expect statistically for that group. 

The point that Asian Americans are making is they have been discriminated against despite stellar achievements.

For the record, since Tsmith and others like to take lot shots, the Asian American community has been an important part of my life for many years.  I was the first student in MU history to earn a minor in East Asian Studies.  Went on for my Masters at U of Kansas in East Asian Languages and Cultures.  Have lived in an Asian community for a third of my life.  90% of my kids friends are Asian, many of our friends, majority of my employees, etc.  This is an important issue to this community and we are in tune with it because many that are impacted are our friends and neighbors.

[StillAWarrior]

I am not accusing Harvard of discriminating against African-Americans. Not even sure where you came up with the idea that I might be.

Mixed you up with another poster.  My apologies.

[JWags85]

What's interesting to me about this commentary is that the students I met from Miami were always top notch and the people I've met who went to OSU were never very impressive to me.  This may have to do with being in a Sales and Marketing Business Fraternity where the Miami chapter was consistently one of the best in the nation, so I was just exposed to some of the better students.  However, anecdotally this has been my experience.

Were you in PSE?! If so, I was part of that chapter.  One of the most transformational parts of my time at Miami to be sure.  And I don't disagree.

It is interesting to read that and to have watched it develop over the years.  By the time my first was considering college, OSU already was the clear "leader" of the Ohio state schools.  My son had absolutely no interest in going to OSU, and didn't even apply.  He applied to Miami, and it was his No.2 pick (it was his parents' No. 1).  He got some money offered, but ultimately he got enough offered at an out-of-state school that made it pretty close in cost to Miami and he went there.  My oldest daughter had a unique college selection process that didn't include any of the in-state schools.  My middle daughter just completed the process.  She applied at OSU (and got in), but wasn't really that interested.  Once again, Miami was her No. 2.  Once again, an out-of-state school offered her enough money to make it workable and she went that route.

My wife and I have pushed Miami hard twice, and have one more chance.  I think for Ohio residents, it's an amazing value.

Totally agree.  Many people outside of Ohio and the Midwest think Miami is a private school.  And in many ways, it operates like one.  With the tuition scholarships and relative size, its a fantastic value.  It has the J Crew U reputation and there are certainly plenty of affluent students, but I knew a sizeable chunk of friends and classmates who were very bright, and got into fantastic private and out of state schools, but went to Miami cause they were first generation college or from lower middle class backgrounds and the tuition burden elsewhere was extreme.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Where did I say it was rough?  As usual, you make up something that I never said.  I stated facts, you went somewhere else.

I know, you mentioned it for no particular reason at all...

[TSmith34, Inc.]

My buddy’s sister was an admissions officer at Duke. 30% of incoming spaces were held for legacy admits, celebrities and their children and children who come from wealth. My wife’s friend went to a Duke with Ralph Lauren’s daughter. The Admissions Director got a $1 million/year seat on the RL board when she left (without graduating).

Now, many of these schools cap admissions, so when the lesser qualified child of a wealthy legacy gets in they’re taking a spot from a qualified individual. That I cannot support.

I agree with all of that

[Cheeks]

I know, you mentioned it for no particular reason at all...

It was a statement of fact.  I also mentioned it because all too often from you guys we get this line...”poor white old men” or variant of that.  As if we also don’t have other experiences, live in minority communities, some are poor, etc....but you and others here love going with that line to try and paint folks a certain way.  Not going to let you get away with it.

[Benny B]

So much so that the rate of admissions for Asian-Americans at Harvard has grown 29 percent over the past decade.

What about Asian-Asians?  Or all all Asians admitted to Harvard automatically granted citizenship?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

It was a statement of fact.  I also mentioned it because all too often from you guys we get this line...”poor white old men” or variant of that.  As if we also don’t have other experiences, live in minority communities, some are poor, etc....but you and others here love going with that line to try and paint folks a certain way.  Not going to let you get away with it.

LOL, as if living in a predominantly Asian American community would subject you to discrimination.  Do tell about your experiences being pulled over for driving while white, stopping randomly and being frisked for being white, asked to prove your citizenship for being white, etc.

[Pakuni]

What about Asian-Asians?  Or all all Asians admitted to Harvard automatically granted citizenship?

I know you're trying hard to be clever, but this makes no sense.

[dgies9156]

What's interesting to me about this commentary is that the students I met from Miami were always top notch and the people.

Yeah, but they went to a school I hate -- March 1978!

[Benny B]

I know you're trying hard to be clever, but this makes no sense.

Because Chinese, Korean, Japanese nationals, etc. are not categorized by schools as "Asian-Americans." 

In other words, I wanted to be sure that your purported 29% increase doesn't in fact refer to Asian nationals, not Asian-Americans.

[Pakuni]

Because Chinese, Korean, Japanese nationals, etc. are not categorized by schools as "Asian-Americans." 

In other words, I wanted to be sure that your purported 29% increase doesn't in fact refer to Asian nationals, not Asian-Americans.

OK. Well, you can rest assured that when I wrote "Asian-Americans" I was speaking of Americans of Asian descent, and not Chinese, Korean, Japanese nationals, etc.

[Disco Hippie]

Were you in PSE?! If so, I was part of that chapter.  One of the most transformational parts of my time at Miami to be sure.  And I don't disagree.

Totally agree.  Many people outside of Ohio and the Midwest think Miami is a private school.  And in many ways, it operates like one.  With the tuition scholarships and relative size, its a fantastic value.  It has the J Crew U reputation and there are certainly plenty of affluent students, but I knew a sizeable chunk of friends and classmates who were very bright, and got into fantastic private and out of state schools, but went to Miami cause they were first generation college or from lower middle class backgrounds and the tuition burden elsewhere was extreme.

Miami is one of the most popular choices for students  at my high school alma mater in the southwestern Connecticut suburbs of NYC.  It’s a pretty savvy crowd so I think they’re all aware that it’s actually not a private and a public school but since they’re all paying out-of-state tuition,  it’s basically private as far as they’re concerned.   Schools like Miami, As well as the better Big 10 flagships for whatever reason have always been a more popular choice for students from wealthy upper middle class suburbs in the Northeast than their own flagship state universities such as UCONN, UMASS, Rutgers. URI, UNH, SUNY, etc.   I have no idea why but suspect it has far more to do with school culture than academic snobbery.  As good as UCONN and Rutgers are academically, and I personally believe they’re every bit as good as the upper half of the big 10 schools,  you can’t compare that experience with going to a place like Wisconsin or Michigan.   The Northeast flagships unfortunately don’t have anywhere near the same culture, spirit or history and strength in Athletics that The Midwestern flagships do.  I have long felt that Marquette is completely ignorant to the amount of students from the Northeast that attend those schools who’s parents are more than willing to pay out-of-state tuition Just so Buffy or Trey can have a great college experience and I think they’re missing an opportunity there .   I’m not saying Marquette can compete for the same kids that Michigan gets but they can certainly compete with those attending places like Miami or UW Madison.   Why they don’t  invest more here is mind-boggling ,  given the college age population decline in the Midwest.  Yes it’s declining here too but it’s still the most densely populated part of the country by far

[Cheeks]

LOL, as if living in a predominantly Asian American community would subject you to discrimination.  Do tell about your experiences being pulled over for driving while white, stopping randomly and being frisked for being white, asked to prove your citizenship for being white, etc.

I can tell you of many experiences that other non Asian kids went through being isolated, beaten up, etc, at the local schools....and since you went there, i can give you examples your smarmy illustration happening in South America, Central America, Philippines and Mexico if you wish...or for that matter the USA, the U.K. and other geographic locations. But hey, you keep going with your myopic unworldly view....you might want to get out more and out of that bubble of yours.  Unfortunately racial attacks can happen to any group and victims can be from any race.  Makes it wrong regardless of who is doing the attacking.

[JWags85]

Miami is one of the most popular choices for students  at my high school alma mater in the southwestern Connecticut suburbs of NYC.  It’s a pretty savvy crowd so I think they’re all aware that it’s actually not a private and a public school but since they’re all paying out-of-state tuition,  it’s basically private as far as they’re concerned.   Schools like Miami, As well as the better Big 10 flagships for whatever reason have always been a more popular choice for students from wealthy upper middle class suburbs in the Northeast than their own flagship state universities such as UCONN, UMASS, Rutgers. URI, UNH, SUNY, etc.   I have no idea why but suspect it has far more to do with school culture than academic snobbery.  As good as UCONN and Rutgers are academically, and I personally believe they’re every bit as good as the upper half of the big 10 schools,  you can’t compare that experience with going to a place like Wisconsin or Michigan.   The Northeast flagships unfortunately don’t have anywhere near the same culture, spirit or history and strength in Athletics that The Midwestern flagships do.  I have long felt that Marquette is completely ignorant to the amount of students from the Northeast that attend those schools who’s parents are more than willing to pay out-of-state tuition Just so Buffy or Trey can have a great college experience and I think they’re missing an opportunity there .   I’m not saying Marquette can compete for the same kids that Michigan gets but they can certainly compete with those attending places like Miami or UW Madison.   Why they don’t  invest more here is mind-boggling ,  given the college age population decline in the Midwest.  Yes it’s declining here too but it’s still the most densely populated part of the country by far

Miami does a very good job with focused recruiting in metros/regions.  They choose target cities in 5-10 year blocks.  The big push around the years I started there was Atlanta, and I went to school with a surprising amount of kids from greater Atlanta given where Miami is.  In my CPG days a couple years ago, I used to work with a market research consultant who was a fellow alum and the alumni coordinator for the DMV area, and she said that Miami had pushed there a bit in the late 90s, and was making a renewed effort.  I suspect Connecticut was one of their first targets years ago, along with Denver. 

Its a very smart approach, and beyond just out of state tuition dollars, it gives you a more diverse student base which makes you an attractive destination as well.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I can tell you of many experiences that other non Asian kids went through being isolated, beaten up, etc, at the local schools

So?  What does this have to do with anything?  You tried to claim some credibility as a "minority" because you are a white guy that lives in an Asian community.  You wanted to imply that this somehow means you were discriminated against and have it rough.  Your story that some kids somewhere were isolated, etc., speaks nothing to your situation.  Tell us all about the times that you were stopped, frisked, arrested, and shot at because you are a white guy.

....and since you went there, i can give you examples your smarmy illustration happening in South America, Central America, Philippines and Mexico if you wish...or for that matter the USA, the U.K. and other geographic locations.

I'm not even going to pretend I can follow this Gish Gallop

But hey, you keep going with your myopic unworldly view....you might want to get out more and out of that bubble of yours.

LMAO.  I understand that you don't know me, and that is both fine and understandable.  But your wild shot in the dark is so unbelievably off base it is freakin' hilarious.

Unfortunately racial attacks can happen to any group and victims can be from any race.  Makes it wrong regardless of who is doing the attacking.

Yes, and?  How does this make you a discriminated against "minority" again?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Miami does a very good job with focused recruiting in metros/regions.  They choose target cities in 5-10 year blocks.  The big push around the years I started there was Atlanta, and I went to school with a surprising amount of kids from greater Atlanta given where Miami is.  In my CPG days a couple years ago, I used to work with a market research consultant who was a fellow alum and the alumni coordinator for the DMV area, and she said that Miami had pushed there a bit in the late 90s, and was making a renewed effort.  I suspect Connecticut was one of their first targets years ago, along with Denver. 

Its a very smart approach, and beyond just out of state tuition dollars, it gives you a more diverse student base which makes you an attractive destination as well.

On a similar note, one of my daughters university finalists was the College of Charleston.  It's a public university with a private feel.  It would have cost the same as attending UConn with the scholarships they gave her.  We attended an accepted student event in Connecticut and learned the school primarily draws from the Carolinas and Georgia and also the Greater New York City area and Southern New England. 

[Herman Cain]

On a similar note, one of my daughters university finalists was the College of Charleston.  It's a public university with a private feel.  It would have cost the same as attending UConn with the scholarships they gave her.  We attended an accepted student event in Connecticut and learned the school primarily draws from the Carolinas and Georgia and also the Greater New York City area and Southern New England.

It is also a very huge party and drugs school. Just in case you didn't know. Several kids we know from our area went down there and died of overdose. 

[Coleman]

It is also a very huge party and drugs school. Just in case you didn't know. Several kids we know from our area went down there and died of overdose.

Southern Charm is worth a view. They are all coke heads and I think a few of them attended C of C.

[Cheeks]

So?  What does this have to do with anything?  You tried to claim some credibility as a "minority" because you are a white guy that lives in an Asian community.  You wanted to imply that this somehow means you were discriminated against and have it rough.  Your story that some kids somewhere were isolated, etc., speaks nothing to your situation.  Tell us all about the times that you were stopped, frisked, arrested, and shot at because you are a white guy.
I'm not even going to pretend I can follow this Gish Gallop
LMAO.  I understand that you don't know me, and that is both fine and understandable.  But your wild shot in the dark is so unbelievably off base it is freakin' hilarious.
Yes, and?  How does this make you a discriminated against "minority" again?

Wrong.  If my kids were discriminated against in their school because they were different, how does that not affect me?  Simply because of their race.  The examples I gave which you refuse to acknowledge are that people of all walks of life, races, class, creed, have been profiled, killed, injured, at because they were the wrong place at the wrong time, or drove the wrong car, were the wrong race, wrong gender, etc.  You seem to ignore that, which I cannot understand, but you and I often don't understand each other.  I can have you go through any number of many cities out here and we can see how you are treated, care to go for an experiment since you have all the answers? 

[Pakuni]

Here's a new one. Mostly well-to-do suburban parents giving up custody of their kids (on paper) to get them scholarships and financial aid they don't deserve.


https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190729/its-a-scam--suburban-parents-give-up-custody-of-kids-to-get-need-based-college-aid

[Cheeks]

I, for one, am shocked that people are scamming the system.


Which is again why you go after big fish AND small fish that do the scamming.

[Benny B]

Here's a new one. Mostly well-to-do suburban parents giving up custody of their kids (on paper) to get them scholarships and financial aid they don't deserve.


https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190729/its-a-scam--suburban-parents-give-up-custody-of-kids-to-get-need-based-college-aid

Not surprised by this, but where is it written that parents are obligated to pay for their children's education? (hint: it's not)

Frankly, I don't see this as anything close to the scam that Varsity Blues is... if this was an option known to me when I was in high school, I would have jumped all over it. 

Combined, my parents made enough money to put me over the threshold where I didn't qualify for anything except a subsidized Stafford Loan and a few state grants that didn't move the needle; however, my parents were also recently divorced, which meant no savings (whatever was there went to the lawyers) and twice the living expenses.  Ergo, I was on my own to pay for my own education.  Fortunately, I landed a full ride my junior year and got through grad school on a GA scholarship (tuition only), but mine is a model that cannot be emulated.  Frankly, I got lucky. 

I get it... in the Daily Herald example, this is likely a bunch of families from Barrington and Lake Bluff trying to save enough money to renovate their vacation home in the Seychelles.  But there are a lot of kids out there in the same predicament as I was, and double whammy, tuition now costs 2-3x as much (let alone room and board).  Financial aid eligibility should be determined by who's actually paying, not by who society thinks should pay.  And for those who think this could never be ascertained, it seems to me this could easily be tracked simply by tweaking IRS gift rules to include education payments... get the IRS involved, and watch how fast Dr. Barrington and Counselor Bluffington change their minds about scamming their kids through school.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not surprised by this, but where is it written that parents are obligated to pay for their children's education? (hint: it's not)

It's not, but this is very much against the law, not a "legal loophole" as Pro Publica is describing it.  Are these kids still living at home?  Are their parents still providing for them?

[StillAWarrior]

...however, my parents were also recently divorced, which meant no savings (whatever was there went to the lawyers) and twice the living expenses...

Interestingly, this was one of only two questions that I was asked when speaking with a financial aid official about whether their on-line calculator was an accurate predictor of what I could expect in financial aid.  The financial aide person asked whether we were divorced and supporting two households.  If not, we could expect the on-line calculator to be a pretty reliable tool.

The other question was whether we had any unusually high college expenses for my son who was already in college at the time.

[warriorchick]

Not surprised by this, but where is it written that parents are obligated to pay for their children's education? (hint: it's not)

Frankly, I don't see this as anything close to the scam that Varsity Blues is... if this was an option known to me when I was in high school, I would have jumped all over it. 

Combined, my parents made enough money to put me over the threshold where I didn't qualify for anything except a subsidized Stafford Loan and a few state grants that didn't move the needle; however, my parents were also recently divorced, which meant no savings (whatever was there went to the lawyers) and twice the living expenses.  Ergo, I was on my own to pay for my own education.  Fortunately, I landed a full ride my junior year and got through grad school on a GA scholarship (tuition only), but mine is a model that cannot be emulated.  Frankly, I got lucky. 

I get it... in the Daily Herald example, this is likely a bunch of families from Barrington and Lake Bluff trying to save enough money to renovate their vacation home in the Seychelles.  But there are a lot of kids out there in the same predicament as I was, and double whammy, tuition now costs 2-3x as much (let alone room and board).  Financial aid eligibility should be determined by who's actually paying, not by who society thinks should pay.  And for those who think this could never be ascertained, it seems to me this could easily be tracked simply by tweaking IRS gift rules to include education payments... get the IRS involved, and watch how fast Dr. Barrington and Counselor Bluffington change their minds about scamming their kids through school.

If that were the case, no parent would ever help out with college tuition and it's likely that the truly disadvantaged kids would be the losers in that situation.

I don't think it's  unreasonable  for colleges and the government to expect parents of some means to help pay for their kids' educations.

[Pakuni]

Not surprised by this, but where is it written that parents are obligated to pay for their children's education? (hint: it's not)

Tell that to a family court judge.

[Benny B]

If that were the case, no parent would ever help out with college tuition and it's likely that the truly disadvantaged kids would be the losers in that situation.

I don't think it's  unreasonable  for colleges and the government to expect parents of some means to help pay for their kids' educations.

To the former, it wouldn’t disadvantage anyone; it would merely level the playing field.  Take the parents out of the equation, and a graduating senior from Naperville generally has substantially the same means to put him/herself through college as a graduating senior from Gary.

To the latter, I think it’s unreasonable that government expects parents of any means to help pay for their kids’ education.  Maybe society would place greater value on personal responsibility if more kids had to work their way through college instead of simply letting their parents drive the plow.

[warriorchick]

To the former, it wouldn’t disadvantage anyone; it would merely level the playing field.  Take the parents out of the equation, and a graduating senior from Naperville generally has substantially the same means to put him/herself through college as a graduating senior from Gary.

To the latter, I think it’s unreasonable that government expects parents of any means to help pay for their kids’ education.  Maybe society would place greater value on personal responsibility if more kids had to work their way through college instead of simply letting their parents drive the plow.

You are assuming that there are an unlimited number of financial aid dollars out there. And since there aren't, why shouldn't wealthy parents help pay?

Do you really think that a kid who lives in his parent's lakefront estate in Winnetka should get the same amount of grant money as a kid from Englewood?

I think the whole "my parents are a$$holes who won't help me pay for college" situation is actually pretty rare. And if that is indeed the case , work for a few years and go to community college until you qualify for aid based on your own income. Then when your parents invite you over for Christmas, tell them you have other plans.

[jesmu84]

To the former, it wouldn’t disadvantage anyone; it would merely level the playing field.  Take the parents out of the equation, and a graduating senior from Naperville generally has substantially the same means to put him/herself through college as a graduating senior from Gary.

To the latter, I think it’s unreasonable that government expects parents of any means to help pay for their kids’ education.  Maybe society would place greater value on personal responsibility if more kids had to work their way through college instead of simply letting their parents drive the plow.

Is this financially feasible anymore?

[StillAWarrior]

Is this financially feasible anymore?

As with everything else in life...depends.  If they want to go to a private and/or out-of-state school -- probably not.  Unless, of course, they bring something to the table that will get massive financial aid (e.g., sports, grades or financial need).  But, if they want to go to a local state school, it is probably still possible.  I'm not saying it's easy, but it's certainly possible.  And we've known a lot of people who have done it.  In my neck of the woods, Akron ($11,400), Kent ($10,700) and Cleveland State ($10,400) are all very reasonably priced options.  Heading to other parts of the state, Ohio State is $11,000 and the regional branches are under $8,000.  And, as much fun as it is to make fun of tOSU -- and I do...often -- it is widely regarded as a pretty good school.  And those are for full time.  I know many successful people in NE Ohio that graduated from those schools.  Obviously, community colleges are less expensive (you can go FT at CCC for $3,500), and I also know successful people who have gone there.

Yes, college has gotten extraordinarily expensive.  But there are options out there.  Like so many other things, higher priced options are often viewed as the norm.

[dgies9156]

You are assuming that there are an unlimited number of financial aid dollars out there. And since there aren't, why shouldn't wealthy parents help pay?

Do you really think that a kid who lives in his parent's lakefront estate in Winnetka should get the same amount of grant money as a kid from Englewood?

I think the whole "my parents are a$$holes who won't help me pay for college" situation is actually pretty rare. And if that is indeed the case , work for a few years and go to community college until you qualify for aid based on your own income. Then when your parents invite you over for Christmas, tell them you have other plans.

Chick, I wish it were this simple. Obviously, financial aid is finite as is the resources of many parents.

The contrast rarely is between a family in a Winnetka estate and an Englewood resident. It's more likely over a middle class family who is making a good living and wants the best for their children. They face the prospect of between $125,000 and $240,000 for four years for college and wonder how they can do that, keep the house running and prepare for retirement. The choice for way too many families is not easy. Rather, it's gruesome.

You can say, "well, we deal off the card for most." But when you have multi-child families and have to provide for each and ensure a retirement, well, welcome to the real world. This aint academia out here!

The problem is, as I have noted before, college tuition costs are completely out of control. It's because the consumer and provider are not in a 1-1 relationship. A third party payer is, more often than not, interceding and universities are taking advantage of that, as the health care industry does, to run charges up at rates dramatically higher than
inflation. Until we get control on this, the mess will continue and families will look to "game" the system.

That's reality.

[dgies9156]

Is this financially feasible anymore?

My wife did years ago. As did my father.

The answer today is emphatically, "NO"

[Cheeks]

My wife did years ago. As did my father.

The answer today is emphatically, "NO"

I know kids doing it today.  Definitely hard, but it can be done depending on where one goes to school.