Program trajectory and wojo

[Goose]

vogue65

Big fan of yours, but Al did not leave because he could no longer get recruits. At the time of his departure he had a slew of AA's waiting to join the party. They would come from Mt. Vernon, Jersey City and Chicago. If Al had stayed, the next years would have been his deepest pool of talent.

Again, I enjoy reading your comments.

[Charlotte Warrior]

I think the Villanova program trumps ours, no shame in that I think they are top 10 all time. I think we are more like top 20 top 25.

Unfortunately, the reason we are in the top 20-25 of programs is because of what we did over 40 years ago.  We were a blue blood and a series of bad hires and decisions slowly led us to the crater that was the Dukiet years. KO started the resurgence, Deane took us a step back, Crean rebounded from Deane's mistakes, Buzz built on what Crean started until he didn't. Now Wojo is tasked with bringing us back to the level we were at during Buzz' peak. I think we are getting there. Once he does, he will need to build on it.

Programs can tumble very quickly. The fall from Blue Blood to Dukiet only took 12 years. The closest we've been to blue blood status since was Buzz' 4th and 5th years. It took us 24 years and 4 coaches to get to that point and frankly Buzz' peak was nothing compared to what we were. Building a program takes time, patience, and features many missteps along the way. One day, we are going to find the coach that views Marquette as a destination job, sees that being a blue blood is possible here, and has the chops to pull it off. I don't know if Wojo is that guy or if he's just another Crean, a guy who can rebuild a program from a temporary setback but take it no higher. If that's the case, he will eventually be let go or encouraged to move on and we will need to find a coach like Buzz, who can take what a previous coach did and build on it...but hopefully with more stability and permanency.

Don't set your goals too small. Knocking off a 12 seed in the first round is meaningless when it comes to building a program. A final four is just a fart in the wind if not supported by consistent success. You mention  Loyola and Butler. Would you really be satisfied as a fan if the peak of your program's success was an appearance or two and you never reached those heights again? I want blue blood status again, not a couple of Round of 32 and Sweet 16 appearances.

It sounds like you want blue blood status back too. That's good. That's what the administration wants as well. We should not be content until we are there (though let's be real, we won't be, we will always want more). But to get there, you need to play the long game and see the big picture. Don't throw away progress because you want to throw a temper tanturm over not winning enough first round tournament games for your liking. It's a long road, do you have the stomach for it?

Dodds, why aren't you on your own board?

[Cheeks]

Dodds, why aren't you on your own board?

TAMU is definitely not Dodds.  I hear TAMU might be Chicos, however. 

[79Warrior]

Is Kentucky elite?   They have won ONE title the last 20 years...but you think we can win a couple.

Is Kansas elite?  They have won ONE title the last 30 years.  Is Indiana?  One title 30+ years.

Is UCLA elite?  They have won ONE title the last 40+ years.

I think my case is rested.  I’m being pragmatic and anything can happen

UCLA last won in 1994 with Jim Harrick

[Cheeks]

UCLA last won in 1994 with Jim Harrick

Actually 1995, but correct...that's the ONE they have won in 40+ years (44 years).  Prior to that was 1975.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Dodds, why aren't you on your own board?

Ha, I haven't been on that site for over two years. If I want to see 50 people argue with 1 person I can get that here by looking at Chicos most recent posts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Years ago I said MU should have made it perfectly clear they type of program they were going to run and expectations of that program. Basically, they continue to sell the premise they want to be elite. That is great, how long did they that would take? Has that time table changed? What do they consider elite? I think MU continues to live with their head in the sand hoping the alumni will continue to have the stomach for waiting for success.

Lastly, I do not think there is a consensus of what an elite program looks like on here. MU should provide an outline on how they determine program success and share with the faithful that support the program. At that point, some might have the stomach for it and some might not.

I don't understand this perspective. Why does different people's definitions of elite matter? The goal is to build the program, not be elite. Because if you continue to build the program, eventually the program will be elite by whatever definition you choose to use. There will never be a point where anyone associated with the program, not the coaches, not the players, not the BOT, not the administration, not the donors, not the fans, where any of them will stop and say "You know what, this is enough. We don't need to win more."

If Wojo gets us back to Buzz level success, we will want more. If he gets us above Buzz level success, we will want more. If he gets us to the level of programs like Louisville/Arizona/Syracuse/etc, we will want to be blue bloods. If he gets us to blue blood status, we will want to pass the other blue bloods to become the top blue blood. If he gets us to the the top program in college basketball, we will want to extend our lead.

The goal of a coach is to grow the program. Leave it better than the way they found it. If at any point the program starts to regress or plateaus for a significant amount of time (and the amount of acceptable time grows as each new level is achieved), the coach should be fired so a new one who can get it to the next level can take over.

[Cheeks]

Years ago I said MU should have made it perfectly clear they type of program they were going to run and expectations of that program. Basically, they continue to sell the premise they want to be elite. That is great, how long did they that would take? Has that time table changed? What do they consider elite? I think MU continues to live with their head in the sand hoping the alumni will continue to have the stomach for waiting for success.

Lastly, I do not think there is a consensus of what an elite program looks like on here. MU should provide an outline on how they determine program success and share with the faithful that support the program. At that point, some might have the stomach for it and some might not.

Probably semantics or interpretation, but what does ELITE mean?

I believe MU sells themselves as a product that can compete with anyone on a given day, which has been proven.  By compete, I mean win.  Compete for conference titles, go to the post season, etc.  When you say ELITE, I think top 5 or 6 programs which in all honesty I do not see MU pitching themselves as.  It may be a fine line, but I believe we strive to be an excellent program worthy of any fan base who will bring significant resources to bear (facilities, training, academic support, competition, etc), but I don't see where we have said we are the next Duke, UNC, etc in that positioning.  My opinion only.

[jesmu84]

I don't understand this perspective. Why does different people's definitions of elite matter? The goal is to build the program, not be elite. Because if you continue to build the program, eventually the program will be elite by whatever definition you choose to use. There will never be a point where anyone associated with the program, not the coaches, not the players, not the BOT, not the administration, not the donors, not the fans, where any of them will stop and say "You know what, this is enough. We don't need to win more."

If Wojo gets us back to Buzz level success, we will want more. If he gets us above Buzz level success, we will want more. If he gets us to the level of programs like Louisville/Arizona/Syracuse/etc, we will want to be blue bloods. If he gets us to blue blood status, we will want to pass the other blue bloods to become the top blue blood. If he gets us to the the top program in college basketball, we will want to extend our lead.

The goal of a coach is to grow the program. Leave it better than the way they found it. If at any point the program starts to regress or plateaus for a significant amount of time (and the amount of acceptable time grows as each new level is achieved), the coach should be fired so a new one who can get it to the next level can take over.

This. So much this.

[muguru]

Probably semantics or interpretation, but what does ELITE mean?

I believe MU sells themselves as a product that can compete with anyone on a given day, which has been proven.  By compete, I mean win.  Compete for conference titles, go to the post season, etc.  When you say ELITE, I think top 5 or 6 programs which in all honesty I do not see MU pitching themselves as.  It may be a fine line, but I believe we strive to be an excellent program worthy of any fan base who will bring significant resources to bear (facilities, training, academic support, competition, etc), but I don't see where we have said we are the next Duke, UNC, etc in that positioning.  My opinion only.

They haven't said it...but that is EXACTLY what they should be striving for...no less. That to me is the definition of Elite.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

They haven't said it...but that is EXACTLY what they should be striving for...no less. That to me is the definition of Elite.

We should. Now tell me the programs that have gotten to that level in the shortest amount of time.

[Herman Cain]

vogue65

Big fan of yours, but Al did not leave because he could no longer get recruits. At the time of his departure he had a slew of AA's waiting to join the party. They would come from Mt. Vernon, Jersey City and Chicago. If Al had stayed, the next years would have been his deepest pool of talent.

Again, I enjoy reading your comments.

I agree with this analysis

[muguru]

We should. Now tell me the programs that have gotten to that level in the shortest amount of time.

I would argue had they not made life so uncomfortable for Buzz, that he felt the need to leave...MU would be there already...That's what pisses me off more than anything...they were knocking on the door...and the admin slammed it shut.

[real chili 83]

Many folks on here, myself included, very much enjoyed the Buzz style of play, type of player and the on court success they had, but MU admin/BOT did not have the stomach to continue in the manner Buzz was building his program. I have said many times over, that is their right, I get it an do not completely disagree with their thought process. Possibly the complete change of program style has taken away folks wanting to stomach a long overhaul.

Years ago I said MU should have made it perfectly clear they type of program they were going to run and expectations of that program. Basically, they continue to sell the premise they want to be elite. That is great, how long did they that would take? Has that time table changed? What do they consider elite? I think MU continues to live with their head in the sand hoping the alumni will continue to have the stomach for waiting for success.

Lastly, I do not think there is a consensus of what an elite program looks like on here. MU should provide an outline on how they determine program success and share with the faithful that support the program. At that point, some might have the stomach for it and some might not.

Dis^^^^^^^^

[real chili 83]

I agree with this analysis

I analyze with this agreement.

[Herman Cain]

I would argue had they not made life so uncomfortable for Buzz, that he felt the need to leave...MU would be there already...That's what pisses me off more than anything...they were knocking on the door...and the admin slammed it shut.

Mr. Guru:
Sometime administrations do the darndest things.

Just think how the Michigan State Football fans felt in 1999. Nick Saban worked to turn their fortunes around and he just turned the corner. Then LSU came along and offered a tiny bit more money and MSU was too cheap to pay up. Think about how their history would have turned out.

[Cheeks]

They haven't said it...but that is EXACTLY what they should be striving for...no less. That to me is the definition of Elite.

OK, well since we haven't been winning at a high level for decade upon decade upon decade, it will take a long time to get there....right?  Probably decades.  We don't have our own TV network, the ACC does starting in 4 months, we don't have football, we don't have warm weather, and we don't have their history.  We have nice history, we have a good TV package, we are basketball centric, but not the same as those. 

And as a reminder, Coach K at Duke won ONE NCAA tournament game his first five years....but he took a very good program to ELITE.  Let's see what Wojo can do.  Maybe nothing, but if you are going to use history and comparisons of these schools, you may want to embrace a few more from those very schools.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I would argue had they not made life so uncomfortable for Buzz, that he felt the need to leave...MU would be there already...That's what pisses me off more than anything...they were knocking on the door...and the admin slammed it shut.

Guru, we were nowhere near the levels of Duke, UNC, etc when Buzz left. Even after his Elite Eight year we weren't close. You know what Duke fans call a three year stretch of 11 seed, 3 seed, 3 seed? A really bad three years. All it took for Buzz was one surprise draft decision from Vander and it sent us tumbling from "on our way to elite" to "needing to rebuild." The Dukes of the world deal with 3-5 NBA draft decisions a year and they simply reload. We weren't anywhere close to being able to do that.

I posted about this on the "alternate history" page but I don't think Buzz staying would have made 14-15 go that much better. It likely would have been another year out of the postseason. Now I think hanging onto Shayok and Hill plus Buzz being a better coach would have led to a quicker rebuild, but I don't think we would have been even close to sniffing blue blood status. That is built over time.

[MU82]

I would argue had they not made life so uncomfortable for Buzz, that he felt the need to leave...MU would be there already...That's what pisses me off more than anything...they were knocking on the door...and the admin slammed it shut.

Even if I agree with this ... and I agree much more with what TAMU says ... OK great ... but that ship has sailed. Bemoaning it does NOTHING for our situation going forward.

Buzz inherited a good group of players and did well. He became a good coach and our teams were fun to watch. And yet, in his 6th season, he had a MUCH worse year than Wojo had this season. So wouldn't your hypothetical AD from another thread have fired him?

[muguru]

Guru, we were nowhere near the levels of Duke, UNC, etc when Buzz left. Even after his Elite Eight year we weren't close. You know what Duke fans call a three year stretch of 11 seed, 3 seed, 3 seed? A really bad three years. All it took for Buzz was one surprise draft decision from Vander and it sent us tumbling from "on our way to elite" to "needing to rebuild." The Dukes of the world deal with 3-5 NBA draft decisions a year and they simply reload. We weren't anywhere close to being able to do that.

I posted about this on the "alternate history" page but I don't think Buzz staying would have made 14-15 go that much better. It likely would have been another year out of the postseason. Now I think hanging onto Shayok and Hill plus Buzz being a better coach would have led to a quicker rebuild, but I don't think we would have been even close to sniffing blue blood status. That is built over time.

Vander's decision killed that team you're right, but I do believe had all these restrictions not been placed on Buzz, he'd have had them right back in the tourney the following year, had he still been allowed to go after ANY Juco he wanted. That's a way of "reloading". Even if you say we weren't close(which is probably true), they were heading that direction..the talk lately here has been "trend lines"...well if you throw out Buzz's last year, the three seasons prior were "sweet 16, sweet 16, Elite 8. If that isn't a positive trend I don't know what is?? I truly believe if Buzz were still at MU and he had no restrictions as far as the type of kids he could bring in..MU would have been in a final Four again recently. The man could coach, and his teams had an identity, something Wojo's teams lack. WQhat is their identity anyway?? Does anyone know??

[MU82]

guru, quick question:

What was your opinion when MU hired Buzz as coach? Were you thrilled about it?

[muguru]

guru, quick question:

What was your opinion when MU hired Buzz as coach? Were you thrilled about it?

Yes...because I thought he had loads of potential, I also thought that would keep the three amigos there. It did. However, admittedly, had I known at the time(found it out later) that a certain coach that is currently Coaching in the sweet 16 was interested, he would have been my run away choice.

[Herman Cain]

Vander's decision killed that team you're right, but I do believe had all these restrictions not been placed on Buzz, he'd have had them right back in the tourney the following year, had he still been allowed to go after ANY Juco he wanted. That's a way of "reloading". Even if you say we weren't close(which is probably true), they were heading that direction..the talk lately here has been "trend lines"...well if you throw out Buzz's last year, the three seasons prior were "sweet 16, sweet 16, Elite 8. If that isn't a positive trend I don't know what is?? I truly believe if Buzz were still at MU and he had no restrictions as far as the type of kids he could bring in..MU would have been in a final Four again recently. The man could coach, and his teams had an identity, something Wojo's teams lack. WQhat is their identity anyway?? Does anyone know??

When the new President and AD came in the bloom came off the Rose with Buzz. The final straw was the Williams stabbing Buzz in the back after the WV win and dancing to Country Roads (something that would have celebrated in the media in  Al's day).  Everything went down hill internally from there. That last season Buzz was just mailing it in. So unfortunately, the divorce had to happen as Buzz couldn't be the Buzz that was successful .  It was in the best interest of both parties to move on. Administration hired exactly the type of guy they wanted and  we have seen now for the past five years how that played out for MU and Buzz.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Vander's decision killed that team you're right, but I do believe had all these restrictions not been placed on Buzz, he'd have had them right back in the tourney the following year, had he still been allowed to go after ANY Juco he wanted. That's a way of "reloading". Even if you say we weren't close(which is probably true), they were heading that direction..the talk lately here has been "trend lines"...well if you throw out Buzz's last year, the three seasons prior were "sweet 16, sweet 16, Elite 8. If that isn't a positive trend I don't know what is?? I truly believe if Buzz were still at MU and he had no restrictions as far as the type of kids he could bring in..MU would have been in a final Four again recently. The man could coach, and his teams had an identity, something Wojo's teams lack. WQhat is their identity anyway?? Does anyone know??

Honestly, the restrictions talk has been way overblown in my opinion. There are literally hundreds of high major worthy recruits every year and because a small handful of them are now off the table Buzz was stymied? Seems like an excuse to me. You hate those right?

Buzz' trend line was great until his last year. That's why other than Chicos and Willie, no one was on the fire Buzz train. I have yet to see anyone claim that Wojo is a better coach than Buzz.

Buzz' teams did and didn't have an identity. We always talked about "chip on the shoulder" and "toughness" but those are really just cliches. What made Buzz such as superb coach was that he could change his team's identity to fit the roster. We had run and gun teams, slow em down teams, bully you in the paint teams. Buzz could adjust to his team's strengths and hide their weaknesses like few could.

Wojo on the other hand is much more of a systems coach. He runs the Duke Motion offense but until this season he never had the players to properly run it. Those who have criticized him for not getting his players early were correct. I was one of the ones who challenged those like Dr. B who said he should have "pole axed" people early to get his players in quicker. I didn't think that way because I was so used to what Buzz could do with changing identities. I was wrong.

[Cheeks]

Buzz' trend line was great until his last year. That's why other than Chicos and Willie, no one was on the fire Buzz train. I have yet to see anyone claim that Wojo is a better coach than Buzz

This is some Jussie level bullshyte right here   Show me one post where I said Buzz should be fired.  I didn't.  Use the search function

This is more like what I said

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25197.msg280687#msg280687

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14181.msg127421#msg127421

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13376.msg486194#msg486194