Old Conference Realignment

[MUMountin]

Today's Eye on College Basketball podcast had a brief discussion about the fact that Marquette has only won three league regular season championships--Great Midwest in 1994, CUSA in '03, Big East in '13. 

Matt Norlander quickly pointed out that we only joined a conference in the last thirty years and they briefly talked about the move from independent to conference affiliations generally in the 80s and 90s.

Although I was toddling around the MECCA in those days, I was too young to remember the move from being an Independent to (briefly) the Midwestern Conference and then the Great Midwest, and really even the start of CUSA. 

For those that remember, what was the perception of joining a conference at the time?  Was it universally seen as a good thing, or did some people think it was a mistake?  Were those first few conferences seen as good places for us at the time, or was it more of a feeling about not getting totally left out in the cold so it was the best that we could do?

While we wait for the Villanova game tonight, I'd love to hear some recollections about that period of time and Marquette's place in it all. 

[The Sultan]

It was completely depressing joining the MCC.  Nothing symbolized the downfall of a once great program than joining that group.  Staying independent just wasn't a realistic option any longer, but man. Conference games with Loyola and Detroit? 

I don't think anyone realistically thought the Big East was an option back then - mostly because of geography.  But I think people thought the old Metro Conference (with Louisville, Memphis and the like) would have been a better possibility.  But I don't know if that was even considered.

But it turns out that we ended up in basically the Metro when we left to form the Great Midwest a couple years later.  That felt much better and more our style.  Conference USA was a positive expansion of the Great Midwest so that was good too.

[GooooMarquette]

Agree with Fluffy that it was pretty depressing being in the MCC.

By then, people were resigned to the fact that conferences were the only viable option to survive, and many sensed that we probably waited too long to get into a better position. The GMC was a great relief, as it returned us toward where we belonged, and C-USA was generally viewed as another move upward, albeit with lots of dead weight toward the bottom.

[MUMountin]

Agree with Fluffy that it was pretty depressing being in the MCC.

By then, people were resigned to the fact that conferences were the only viable option to survive, and many sensed that we probably waited too long to get into a better position. The GMC was a great relief, as it returned us toward where we belonged, and C-USA was generally viewed as another move upward, albeit with lots of dead weight toward the bottom.

Had there been previous possibilities for us to join other (better) conferences?  Or had we just held out too long?  Any regrets, in other words? 

And, what happened with the MCC--we weren't there long, so did we know the GMC was coming together almost as soon as we started in the MCC?

It is interesting that we were in the same conference as Butler and Xavier all those years ago, took divergent paths but ended up getting to the same place.

[Marcus92]

The MCC was probably the equivalent of a slightly better Atlantic 10 conference back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Butler (long before Brad Stevens), Dayton, Detroit, Evansville, Loyola-Chicago, Marquette, St. Louis and Xavier, I think.

Xavier was pretty much the only worthwhile team at the time. Pete Gillen led the Muskateers to two NCAA appearances (including a Sweet 16) during MU's two seasons in the MCC. I don't believe any other program did anything of note. More of a faint ripple in the world of college hoops than a big splash. Nonetheless, it was an important step for Marquette.

"Great" is no hyperbole
The Great Midwest Conference, meanwhile, represented a giant leap forward into the college basketball limelight.

The GMC initially brought together Cincinnati, DePaul, MU, Memphis, St. Louis and UAB (plus Dayton a couple years later). Of those six teams, three made the NCAA tourney in Year One. That included a Final Four appearance by Cincy (led by Bob Huggins and future NBA players Nick Van Exel and Corie Blount) and an Elite Eight Memphis team featuring none other than Penny Hardaway. A big-time debut, for sure.

Cincinnati returned to the Elite Eight the next season, while Marquette and Memphis made Sweet 16 appearances in the final two seasons of the conference. Following the 1993-94 season, 4 of 6 teams earned NCAA bids.

The first national conference
The birth of Conference USA in 1995 represented an even more audacious challenge to the traditional power conferences. Cincinnati, DePaul, Houston (from 1996-97 onward), Louisville, Marquette, Memphis, St. Louis, South Florida and Tulane.

Cincinnati dominated from the beginning, finishing 1st in the conference standings each of the first seven seasons. Huggins added 10 straight NCAA bids, a Sweet 16 and another Elite Eight appearance.

Louisville made 7 of 10 NCAA tourneys, including a Sweet 16, Elite Eight and a Final Four. MU earned 4 NCAA bids, including the Final Four under Tom Crean and Dwyane Wade. Memphis was still very good. DePaul and St. Louis were actually relevant, earning 4 NCAA bids between them. Even Tulane and South Florida were occasionally competitive.

Takeaways
At the time MU joined the MCC, the writing on the wall seemed clear -- that there was no future for independents in college basketball. It was a move that had to be made.

Both the Great Midwest and CUSA were strong basketball-focused conferences (likely modeled on the original Big East). it was also great to see some continuity between the teams who made the move along with Marquette. That's especially true of Cincinnati and later Louisville, which led to some of the greatest rivalry games in recent memory.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

It was completely depressing joining the MCC.  Nothing symbolized the downfall of a once great program than joining that group.  Staying independent just wasn't a realistic option any longer, but man. Conference games with Loyola and Detroit? 

I don't think anyone realistically thought the Big East was an option back then - mostly because of geography.  But I think people thought the old Metro Conference (with Louisville, Memphis and the like) would have been a better possibility.  But I don't know if that was even considered.

But it turns out that we ended up in basically the Metro when we left to form the Great Midwest a couple years later.  That felt much better and more our style.  Conference USA was a positive expansion of the Great Midwest so that was good too.

Agree 100%

[MuMark]

Had there been previous possibilities for us to join other (better) conferences?  Or had we just held out too long?  Any regrets, in other words? 

And, what happened with the MCC--we weren't there long, so did we know the GMC was coming together almost as soon as we started in the MCC?

It is interesting that we were in the same conference as Butler and Xavier all those years ago, took divergent paths but ended up getting to the same place.

Supposedly we were invited to join the original Big East......or at least discussions were had......don't think Al wanted to do it.........

[WarriorFan]

Also agree the MCC was depressing, as was the impact on overall scheduling it created.   For example, North Carolina no longer wanted a home and home with MU because we were a lowly MCC team.

I really think this and the coach hiring at the time were among many incompetent moves by Bill Cords who really didn't have a vision for the program.

[oldwarrior81]

as others have mentioned the days of being an independent were almost over.   Before the BigEast was formed a decade earlier there were probably more than 70 independents.   Not unusual to have 4-5 of them highly ranked.
By the late 80's there were probably less than 20.  With MU, Notre Dame, and DePaul being the bigger names.   
Remember this occurred during the Dukiet era.   At the time the MU program was quickly approaching the prestige level of a Detroit or Evansville.

The Great Midwest was a decent spot to hang until the Metro joined up into C-USA.  But while decent at the top, there were a lot of lower level programs.  Or lower than I thought Marquette should be grouped with.  Anyone else remember Southern Miss selling a home date, and playing a home game against MU in Green Bay.  If memory serves, they blew us out by 20+.

To me, there wasn't really a heck of a lot of difference between a Sunday night game in Evansville, or a road trip to Fort Worth in front of 2,000 spectators.

[GooooMarquette]

Supposedly we were invited to join the original Big East......or at least discussions were had......don't think Al wanted to do it.........

That is what I've heard as well. At the time of the initial discussions, MU was still a powerhouse and the original BE teams were historically weak. Al supposedly said "no thanks," which probably seemed like the right answer at the time.

If the initial discussions had taken place just a couple of years later ('79 or '80, with the conference starting up in '81 or '82), we might have been there from the beginning.

[D'Lo Brown]

I just wanted to add a word of thanks to this discussion. As a much more recent MU fan than most on here, I was missing a lot of these details. This has the makings of a classic Scoop thread and perhaps required reading for new (yet, hardcore) fans.

[The Sultan]

And, what happened with the MCC--we weren't there long, so did we know the GMC was coming together almost as soon as we started in the MCC?

No I don't think they knew the GMC was coming together.  But I think a couple things happened.  First, I recall MU hoping that DePaul was going to join the MCC with them, but they didn't.  DePaul was a huge rival back then and they kept in contact about the future.  Second, Cincinnati and Memphis were not very pleased with Louisville throwing their weight around the Metro Conference and decided to leave.  Finally Kevin O'Neill HATED the MCC.  Couldn't wait to get out of there.  And he was right.

It seemed like it came out of the blue, but I'm sure conversations were happening for awhile.

[Warrior of Law]

The GMC was very good for MU at the time. With only 6 teams, they only had 5 home dates locked in, which allowed for plenty of solid NC games in that era. The GMC was a big upgrade and the teams were ranked and represented in the tournament.

[geps]

It's so weird, perceptions of conferences. At the time of GMC, CUSA no talk of power 6 and TV contracts I was just happy to beat Cincy every 6th time. There was no national comparison of conferences just teams.

Think about the old Big East. This year only MU, UL and Cincy would be ranked. And Cincy just got ranked this week. Weird.

[Eye]

Kind of thought of the MCC as a necessary evil. As a student those 2 years, much more interest in big non-league opponents like Michigan the year after they won the title than the league games. MU was kind of in an unofficial conference in the 80s with home-and-homes every year with DePaul, Notre Dame, Dayton and Southwest Louisiana. I was more interested in those games than the MCC games.

GMC definitely an upgrade. Being paired with DePaul, who was still somewhat of a thought on the national stage, Cincy and Memphis made for more good league games than bad. UAB had some name recognition, too.

One thing I can add to the conversation that hasn't been specifically mentioned yet is that I think the unofficial merger with the Metro to make CUSA was something that was being talked about behind the scenes even a few years before it came about. Best friend a UL fan, so went to just about every UL - DePaul game in the early 90s before they all ended up in CUSA, including the game where Kleinschmidt hit a 4-point play with seconds left in 95 with Garnett and Fields in the crowd (thought that might get DePaul going again, but Garnett went straight to the NBA, Fields got in a car crash, Joey Meyer turned down Oregon, and less than 2 years later he was gone, back to point). Because buddy was big UL fan, listened a lot to WHAS sports talk on the AM clear channel stick. Remember calling in to Van Vance's show in about '92 and asking him as an MU fan with a guy whose best friend who is a UL fan if there were ever a shot the GMC and Metro would merge. He said something like don't be surprised if that happens someday, sooner than you might think.

CUSA was also an upgrade, especially on the top. Add Louisville and for a few years Charlotte to the mix gave the league half-a-dozen teams that were serious about big-time buckets. Unfortunately the Harry's (Pitino term) or NASCAR division other than Memphis were more interested in trying to hit the lottery to make a second-tier FB bowl game than BKB. Wanna say one of those years the MU/Cincy division won like 31 of 36 against the NASCAR division.

As an aside, went to several CUSA tourneys in Louisville and Memphis. Had a blast every time. Do miss those. Could get tickets for the whole tourney for just a little bit more than a 100 bucks, and had friends living in Lexington could stay with for the tourney's in Louisville. NYC for the tourney in Brooklyn over Thanksgiving was also a blast, but a lot more expensive.

So while the 1st move seemed like a necessary evil, the successive moves were better.

[The Sultan]

Yeah the Conference USA formation happened due to the first big mega-conference realignment.  The Metro lost Florida State and South Carolina, who were football independents at the time, to the ACC and SEC respectively.  At the same time, Louisville, Cincinnati and Memphis, who were also football independents, wanted a conference for their football programs so the merger occurred, but Virginia Tech, VCU and Dayton were left out in the cold.  Houston was invited instead because the SWC was breaking apart and they didn't want to go to the WAC like Rice, TCU and SMU were.  Eventually other members joined as "football only" like East Carolina, and some of the non-football schools, like USF and UAB, formed football programs.

[GooooMarquette]

As an aside, went to several CUSA tourneys in Louisville and Memphis. Had a blast every time. Do miss those. Could get tickets for the whole tourney for just a little bit more than a 100 bucks, and had friends living in Lexington could stay with for the tourney's in Louisville. NYC for the tourney in Brooklyn over Thanksgiving was also a blast, but a lot more expensive.

I never went to the CUSA Tourney, but attended the GMC Tourney in Memphis in '93. Great crowds, great atmosphere at the Pyramid (aka the "Tomb of Doom"). The final between Cinci and Memphis was one of the loudest basketball games I ever attended.

[The Lens]

I LOVED the GMC.  Look back at 1994.  4 of the 7 made the NCAAs and the non-conf sked was on fire.  It was a thing of beauty.

Wash State (N)
UWGB
Illinois
Ohio State
Northwestern
@Northern
@Bucky
@Arizona (Damon Key casually dropping 36, NBD)
South Florida (huh?)
West Va (at 11am, most kids didn't sleep the night before, for a freshman, that was the drunkest I ever saw ppl)
@Va Tech (We have a such a weird history with them...Ace Custis, Buzz)
Notre Dame
San Francisco
UWM (the perfect palette cleanser before the Dance)

[Eye]

Went to the last CUSA tourney in Memphis in '05. Our travel agent screwed up, said we were staying right staying right next to the gym. Well, unfortunately we stayed right next to the Pyramid instead of the Forum (still my favorite NBA/major college arena had been to before the trips this year to Barclay's and Fiserv).

Awful tourney for MU, Diener hurt, Novak and Marcus Jackson trying to handle the ball against a TCU press and out about 3 hours after our plane landed. But also the tourney where Washington missed 2 of 3 free throws after getting fouled at the horn to give UL a 1-point win in the title game.

Also sat right behind the DePaul bench for one of their games and heard Leitao as about the most foul-mouthed coach I'd ever heard. He must've said MF to players 20 times in that game. (never sat close enough to hear O' Neill during a game). And South Florida had the Sun Dolls.

Also the tourney where a UC fan we were sitting next to was 100 percent sure Huggins was drunk on the bench. Huggins never left the bench that whole game and they got killed by I want to say Southern Miss.

Outside of the games, Beale Street was fantastic. Also the second biggest one-day temperature drop I've ever experienced. It was 78 when we left Memphis. It was 19 when we landed in Chicago (largest was Louisville to La Crosse after the UL - UK game in '09, was 66 in Louisville, 12 below in La Crosse). We flew from Memphis to Chicago with two fantastically beautiful girls from Mississippi. One of them asked if they were going to need a winter coat in Chicago. Um, yeah, probably need a winter coat in Chicago in March.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Cords did a masterful job moving MU up conferences. The GMC was always a temporary holding place.

[The Lens]

Cords did a masterful job moving MU up conferences. The GMC was always a temporary holding place.

Agree.  Cords is no people person.  Pat Richter, he wasn't, but he could block and tackle and X&O the heck out of the AD position.  Nearly every move he made for Marquette netted a positive return.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is scoop at its best. Sharing stories and history on our program. I could have told you all the conferences MU was in but I didn't know the context of how/why they got there and what the perceptions were at the time.

[Eye]

Just thought of one more thing. Today is the 23rd anniversary of MU's first big road win in CUSA, an 80-79 double OT at Louisville in which Aaron Hutchins hit about a 30-foot, right-sideline 3 while double teamed to win it. 1st time I saw MU in person outside of the Midwest. Pretty sure I was only MU fan on one side of Freedom Hall. Went with buddy and his now wife. They're leaving tomorrow to take their 2 kids, 12 and 11, to their first UL game.

[loid walden]

For the record I was completely opposed to going  to a  conference, any conference. I wrote 2  letter to Majerus in opposition, giving specious arguments such our success and uniqueness  as an independent.  [Note we wrote letters on paper in those days}. In retrospect it was a good, sound decision for all the reasons others have mentioned. But one guy was completely opposed...me.
By the way Rick never wrote me back

[Dr. Blackheart]

For the record I was completely opposed to going  to a  conference, any conference. I wrote 2  letter to Majerus in opposition, giving specious arguments such our success and uniqueness  as an independent.  [Note we wrote letters on paper in those days}. In retrospect it was a good, sound decision for all the reasons others have mentioned. But one guy was completely opposed...me.
By the way Rick never wrote me back

Cable TV supplanted syndicated, so the lay of the land changed.  MU owned syndicated but it became irrelevant as cable needed to lock up 24/7 content.