Raggedy ND

[lurch91]

1.  That was a hard stretch to watch in the first half when ND was stripping MU on every possession.
2.  And it was a hard stretch to watch when MU quit running offense in the second half.
3.  Theo hurt my eyes and my heart.
4.  So did Chartouny.  Dumb foul.
5.  So...many... turnovers.  I sense intense coaching between now and Friday.
6.  Buffalo is coming to town.  Buffalo is coming  to town.  They'll beat you if you're sleeping, you'd better be awake.  Close game if you're bad or good, so be good for Wojos sake.
7.  The walk ons played.  Nuff said.

We win by 26 after 10 days off for finals, and this sounds like UND could have drilled us.

Tower, when you having an MUBB game party? I'll bring the Bell's or Founder's.

[tower912]

They just come to me and I don't know.   

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

rough game to start,  was really impressed with morrow toughness that is much needed. 

tooney remains a liability at almost all times on the court against a little sisters of the poor team, really hope his play is more limited after this game.

[tower912]

Please explain how, with Greg red-shirting, you propose to limit Chartouny's time on the floor.

[skianth16]

Please explain how, with Greg red-shirting, you propose to limit Chartouny's time on the floor.

The same way we did against UW and Indiana, allocate more minutes to better contributors. When he's in, he runs the point, and when he's not in, we use Markus. Having JC playing so many minutes off the ball isn't ideal. Although, at the same time, he's a liability with the ball too often. It's tough, but if he doesn't step up in a big way soon, I see more benefit to increasing playing time for pretty much every other guy in the rotation than keeping him at his 22-25 min per game in conference play.

Greg hasn't played a minute this year. He's not even relevant to limiting Chartouny's minutes.

[tower912]

I don't see how you can limit minutes at guard with so few guards.  Chartouny will keep getting 20+ minutes.

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

Well when you have a player that seems to do more harm than good when with the ball its pretty easy to figure out how to limit the minutes.  Hes a warm body out there with fouls to give that's about it. 

I would say he has been 100% disappointment for what he was hyped up to be. 

[Its DJOver]

Well when you have a player that seems to do more harm than good when with the ball its pretty easy to figure out how to limit the minutes.  Hes a warm body out there with fouls to give that's about it. 

I would say he has been 100% disappointment for what he was hyped up to be.

I like how you only focus on one side of the ball.  He was billed as a defensive first player.  Our defense has been exponentially better than it was prior to his arrival.  The TOs are starting to become a real problem, but only focusing on offense, when a players specialty is defensive work is just being overly pessimistic.

[skianth16]

I like how you only focus on one side of the ball.  He was billed as a defensive first player.  Our defense has been exponentially better than it was prior to his arrival.  The TOs are starting to become a real problem, but only focusing on offense, when a players specialty is defensive work is just being overly pessimistic.

He was billed as a pass first, assist-heavy PG too. And on that end, he's coming up short. Our defense isn't lights out better this year just because of him. Ed and Joey are playing key roles on defense, and Markus has improved a ton. Joe's strength right now is his defense, but I don't think he's been such a standout or so much better than our other options for him to keep getting 20+ minutes. That said, I hope he proves me wrong and shines in conference play. I haven't seen enough to make me think that can happen just yet, though.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYR7-e2EETc

Wojo's post game comments at above link.

Question - who is the clown who starts to ask a question at the 3 minute mark and then babbles on for 30 seconds?  This dude does this every press conference.  Dude - no one is looking for your analysis.  Ask the fuc*ing question and move on. 

[Its DJOver]

He was billed as a pass first, assist-heavy PG too. And on that end, he's coming up short. Our defense isn't lights out better this year just because of him. Ed and Joey are playing key roles on defense, and Markus has improved a ton. Joe's strength right now is his defense, but I don't think he's been such a standout or so much better than our other options for him to keep getting 20+ minutes. That said, I hope he proves me wrong and shines in conference play. I haven't seen enough to make me think that can happen just yet, though.

The thing is, that Ed and Joey aren't guards though.  Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three.  They didn't do much keeping the combination of Davison, and Trice to only 10 points in 74 minutes.  Having them back there certainly helped, but that credit primarily goes to Joe and Sacar (coincidentally 4th and 5th in minutes, but recieve the most criticism about their offensive game). 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYR7-e2EETc

Wojo's post game comments at above link.

Question - who is the clown who starts to ask a question at the 3 minute mark and then babbles on for 30 seconds?  This dude does this every press conference.  Dude - no one is looking for your analysis.  Ask the fuc*ing question and move on.

Also found it kind of strange they cut out Wojo's comments about Greg's redshirt. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The thing is, that Ed and Joey aren't guards though.  Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three.  They didn't do much keeping the combination of Davison, and Trice to only 10 points in 74 minutes.  Having them back there certainly helped, but that credit primarily goes to Joe and Sacar (coincidentally 4th and 5th in minutes, but recieve the most criticism about their offensive game).

They absolutely had something to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 and holding Trice and Davison to 10 points. Now that doesn't mean that Joe hasn't been a great defender, but just because they are forwards it doesn't mean than that don't help defend opposing guards.

[Its DJOver]

They absolutely had something to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 and holding Trice and Davison to 10 points. Now that doesn't mean that Joe hasn't been a great defender, but just because they are forwards it doesn't mean than that don't help defend opposing guards.

Think you might be giving them a little too much credit.  As I said having them back there has helped, but the primary praise for those defensive showings should be going to Joe and Sacar (I don't remember Ed chasing Trice around too many screens, or off the three point line).  Credit to Joey and Ed for holding Wade and Azubuike the way they did, but there's a reason that neither Ed or Joey match up with the opposing teams PG on defense.

[skianth16]

The thing is, that Ed and Joey aren't guards though.  Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three.  They didn't do much keeping the combination of Davison, and Trice to only 10 points in 74 minutes.  Having them back there certainly helped, but that credit primarily goes to Joe and Sacar (coincidentally 4th and 5th in minutes, but recieve the most criticism about their offensive game).

All fair points. Joe has played well on defense in some key games, but the games you mentioned are also the ones where he played the fewest minutes too. It seems like his best contribution / most helpful role is to come in off the bench and limit his minutes from these examples. 

[Its DJOver]

All fair points. Joe has played well on defense in some key games, but the games you mentioned are also the ones where he played the fewest minutes too. It seems like his best contribution / most helpful role is to come in off the bench and limit his minutes from these examples.

Agree that he should still be coming off the bench, I just think it's unfair to criticize his entire game to this point.  His TOs, absolutely needs to clean it up and improve.  But he has been just about as advertised on D.  Remember it wasn't too long ago that we were essentially playing with 4 + a turnstile on the defensive end.

[tower912]

To the point (hah), if you cut Joe's minutes from 20+ to, say 12-15, who gets them?    Sacar is already playing 30, as is Markus.   Cain?  Why not.   He is so much stronger with the ball than Chartouny .      Bailey?    He has not turned the ball over, but you can hardly call him a playmaker and I don't think he can guard a quick 1 or 2.  (but he is the most likely).     Joey is already getting plenty of minutes.      And this leaves Markus as the 1 for 30+ minutes a game and gives him more opportunity for hero ball, which we know thrills so many.   

I think Joe continues to get 20+.    And I think he needs to for this team to reach its upper limit. 

[MU82]

Remember all the folks who vowed not to jump to conclusions about Chartouny because they embarrassed themselves when they jumped to conclusions about Lockett and Reinhardt?

[tower912]

I do, I do!

[skianth16]

Remember all the folks who vowed not to jump to conclusions about Chartouny because they embarrassed themselves when they jumped to conclusions about Lockett and Reinhardt?

We had quite a few on here saying that Harry would be a game changer once he just figured it out even into February or March last year too. The patient ones can be wrong too. Joe may improve and become a real impact player, but until he gets there, there is a real concern about the impact his TO rate has on our team.

[fjm]

Remember all the folks who vowed not to jump to conclusions about Chartouny because they embarrassed themselves when they jumped to conclusions about Lockett and Reinhardt?

Man. I even had to write a public apology on twitter to Katin because I was so exhausted by him early in that year. Turned out I was way wrong.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Think you might be giving them a little too much credit.  As I said having them back there has helped, but the primary praise for those defensive showings should be going to Joe and Sacar (I don't remember Ed chasing Trice around too many screens, or off the three point line).  Credit to Joey and Ed for holding Wade and Azubuike the way they did, but there's a reason that neither Ed or Joey match up with the opposing teams PG on defense.

I dont remember them chasing them around screens,  but I do remember Joe and Sacar occasionally getting beat by their assignment and Joey and Ed being the ones to step in and alter a shot.

You said Joey and Ed had "nothing to do with" defending the guards. That's simply not true. Defense is very much a team sport. Even on plays where the bigs were nowhere near the opposing guards, they can have huge impacts on defending them by denying entry passes, clogging up driving lanes, and pure intimidation. An opposing guard is less likely to drive knowing that a shot blocker is roaming the paint,  making them easier to defend.

Joe has absolutely helped on defense. That shouldn't devalue what others have done for the defense. The defender assigned to a player isn't the only one who has an impact on defending that player.

[MU82]

We had quite a few on here saying that Harry would be a game changer once he just figured it out even into February or March last year too. The patient ones can be wrong too. Joe may improve and become a real impact player, but until he gets there, there is a real concern about the impact his TO rate has on our team.

Reasonable point about Froling. But I guess my response would be, "What does all the worrying do for you? It's not going to change anything, but it will let you worry, so there's that. And now, with Elliott out, there's no other viable alternative. So we might as well be patient. Although panic is always fun, too."

JCS has had too many turnovers. Otherwise, he is doing just fine. Hopefully the problem gets corrected so his turnover rate is at an acceptable level ... and let's go win a conference title!

[Its DJOver]

I dont remember them chasing them around screens,  but I do remember Joe and Sacar occasionally getting beat by their assignment and Joey and Ed being the ones to step in and alter a shot.

You said Joey and Ed had "nothing to do with" defending the guards. That's simply not true. Defense is very much a team sport. Even on plays where the bigs were nowhere near the opposing guards, they can have huge impacts on defending them by denying entry passes, clogging up driving lanes, and pure intimidation. An opposing guard is less likely to drive knowing that a shot blocker is roaming the paint,  making them easier to defend.

Joe has absolutely helped on defense. That shouldn't devalue what others have done for the defense. The defender assigned to a player isn't the only one who has an impact on defending that player.

I also twice said that having them back there does help so please read my entire posts.  Not trying to take anything away from Ed or Joey, as evident from the praise for the job on Wade, but the praise should primarily be going to Joe and Sacar (another point that I have said twice).

Having active hands off the ball is important, but in your "nowhere near" scenarios, using the words "huge impact" is quite a big stretch.  Also, "pure intimidation", really?  I hope your kidding, because Theo is the most intimidating player Wojo has had, and he was last year too, and that didn't really help his DRtg.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I also twice said that having them back there does help so please read my entire posts.  Not trying to take anything away from Ed or Joey, as evident from the praise for the job on Wade, but the praise should primarily be going to Joe and Sacar (another point that I have said twice).

Having active hands off the ball is important, but in your "nowhere near" scenarios, using the words "huge impact" is quite a big stretch.  Also, "pure intimidation", really?  I hope your kidding, because Theo is the most intimidating player Wojo has had, and he was last year too, and that didn't really help his DRtg.

I did read your entire post. I agree with your general premise of Joe being valuable on defense. I am addressing a specific point that I disagree with, specifically "Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three." That is not how defense works.

By pure intimidation I don't mean "looks intimidating." I mean that having a proven rim protector in the paint means an opposing guard may be less likely to drive the ball knowing that there is a rim protector in position to block it. It allows the guard defending him to be more aggressive in their on ball defense because they know if they get beat they have good help defenders behind them. This combo of rim protection and aggressive guards was the key to St. John's top 30 defense last season.

If I had to rank the reasons for the improved defense this season, it would go something like this:

1. The graduation of Andrew Rowsey
*BIG GAP*
2. Massive improvement from Howard (.641 ppp 85th percentile say what?)
3. Massive improvement from Theo and addition of other rim protectors
4. Increased length (pause)
5. Addition of Joe
6. Some changes to defensive scheme


This isn't the end all be all, but in case anyone is curious about the team's ppp allowed to date:

Theo .636 ppp 86th percentile
Markus .641 ppp 85th percentile
Chartouny .726 ppp 72nd percentile
Morrow .778 ppp 63rd percentile
Sam .785 ppp 61st percentile
Joey .827 ppp 52nd percentile
Sacar .845 ppp 48th percentile
Bailey .864 ppp 45th percentile
Heldt 1.095 ppp 10th percentile
Cain 1.143 ppp 6th percentile

SO much better than last season, I love it.