Raggedy ND

[tower912]

1.  That was a hard stretch to watch in the first half when ND was stripping MU on every possession.
2.  And it was a hard stretch to watch when MU quit running offense in the second half.
3.  Theo hurt my eyes and my heart.
4.  So did Chartouny.  Dumb foul.
5.  So...many... turnovers.  I sense intense coaching between now and Friday.
6.  Buffalo is coming to town.  Buffalo is coming  to town.  They'll beat you if you're sleeping, you'd better be awake.  Close game if you're bad or good, so be good for Wojos sake.
7.  The walk ons played.  Nuff said.

[nyg]

I can’t believe a Div I school takes a ten hour bus ride and then back with a stop along the way.

MU had 8 turnovers and beat Wiskey.  Must do that against Buffalo.

Joe C push in the back foul was just down right dirty.  Have no clue why he did that, strange and sort of embarrassing. 

[IrwinFletcher]

1.  That was a hard stretch to watch in the first half when ND was stripping MU on every possession.
2.  And it was a hard stretch to watch when MU quit running offense in the second half.
3.  Theo hurt my eyes and my heart.
4.  So did Chartouny.  Dumb foul.
5.  So...many... turnovers.  I sense intense coaching between now and Friday.
6.  Buffalo is coming to town.  Buffalo is coming  to town.  They'll beat you if you're sleeping, you'd better be awake.  Close game if you're bad or good, so be good for Wojos sake.
7.  The walk ons played.  Nuff said.

Marquette beats a cupcake and covers the spread in doing so, yet we get 5-7 comments being negative.  Can we ever be happy?

[skianth16]

Marquette beats a cupcake and covers the spread in doing so, yet we get 5-7 comments being negative.  Can we ever be happy?

This was brought up in the game thread too. These games aren't supposed to just result in pats on the back for beating up on a bad team. They're meant to offer opportunities to improve on weaknesses and to polish up the things that are already pretty good. When we still have glaring turnover issues against this caliber of a team, it can't be ignored. Anyone paying attention knows Wojo will be harping on this for the next few days/weeks.

[Herman Cain]

I can’t believe a Div I school takes a ten hour bus ride and then back with a stop along the way.

MU had 8 turnovers and beat Wiskey.  Must do that against Buffalo.

Joe C push in the back foul was just down right dirty.  Have no clue why he did that, strange and sort of embarrassing.

Probably banking more of the money from the two buy games . They figure it will be a road trip for the guys that beats sitting around airports.

[rocky_warrior]

This was brought up in the game thread too. These games aren't supposed to just result in pats on the back for beating up on a bad team. They're meant to offer opportunities to improve on weaknesses and to polish up the things that are already pretty good. When we still have glaring turnover issues against this caliber of a team, it can't be ignored. Anyone paying attention knows Wojo will be harping on this for the next few days/weeks.

Agreed.  And no doubt wojo will harp on turnovers, and on D even. 

But...I do like to look at what Kenpom predicted the game vs where it ended up (brew may tell me it's too early to trust kenpom).  Nonetheless, he was predicting a 83-62 win.  Since we ended at 92-66, it generally means the O was better (+9) than expected, and the D was slightly worse (+4) than expected. Though that was based on a predicted 71 possession game.  I'm guessing it went a couple over that.  Edit: 81 instead.  Which probably means our D exceeded, and the O slightly under-achieved.   Nonetheless, clean up the 22 turnovers, and we're probably closer to the 71 poss. mark.

Some of it was rust though.  Hopefully a lot, probably just a little.

[Marcus92]

Happy with a 29-point win. That's 28 more points than you need.

On the plus side, MU played good defense overall, dominated the boards and shot the lights out (60.5% on 2-pointers, 55.0% beyond the arc).

But during the first 10 minutes of the game, Marquette looked like it was rushing too much. In the first 10 minutes of the second half, they looked like they were sleepwalking. And way too many turnovers; 14 might be okay for a entire game, not for a half.

I expect a better game against Buffalo. We'll need it.

[🏀]

Happy with a 29-point win. That's 28 more points than you need.

On the plus side, MU played good defense overall, dominated the boards and shot the lights out (60.5% on 2-pointers, 55.0% beyond the arc).

But during the first 10 minutes of the game, Marquette looked like it was rushing too much. In the first 10 minutes of the second half, they looked like they were sleepwalking. And way too many turnovers; 14 might be okay for a entire game, not for a half.

I expect a better game against Buffalo. We'll need it.

Some of us teased it to 20 points needed in a parlay.

[MUEng92]

HA! I just got it. Raggedy ND. Ha!

[🏀]

HA! I just got it. Raggedy ND. Ha!

Treat yourself.

[Marcus92]

If you're grading on a curve, with an average performance (winning by the predicted 20-point margin) earning a C, I'd give MU a C+ tonight. The first 10 minutes of the game were a D at best. Give ND some credit for clogging up the lane, but Marquette was overly aggressive on offense and far too careless with the ball.

[MU82]

Cut down the turnovers, and the Warriors win by 40 or more.

Correctable. We've got this.

Otherwise, the main thing I took from the game was how nice it was to see 3s falling for Sam and Markus again. Liked seeing Morrow make an impact again, too.

[brewcity77]

But...I do like to look at what Kenpom predicted the game vs where it ended up (brew may tell me it's too early to trust kenpom).  Nonetheless, he was predicting a 83-62 win.  Since we ended at 92-66, it generally means the O was better (+9) than expected, and the D was slightly worse (+4) than expected.

It's just about there. Mid-January is when it's fully accurate, but at this point it's far more reliable than November and early December. As a tool, it makes more sense to look at the aggregate rankings now and not just the four factors (though the four factors are admittedly still more accurate).

[MU82]

After going 0-for-8 from downtown vs K-State and UTEP, Sam is 7-for-11 the last two games. Offense needs him!

Meanwhile, Markus had only his second game this season in which he made at least half of his 3s.

I know we're not really a 3-point shooting team any more, at least not the way we were the last couple of years, but it sure makes life easier when our best shooters shoot the best!

[1SE]

10 minutes to get off 10 days of rust and then cruise control against a sponge cake. Happy to see a big night by Ed despite the TOs, even against a cupcake (he wasn't doing that to cupcakes early in the season). Also like to see minutes and stat-stuffers from Joey and JC.

Big test Friday. Win and we put ourselves in position for a very nice seed if we can take care of business (1st or 2nd) in conference. Let's go Marquette!

[muwarrior69]

10 minutes to get off 10 days of rust and then cruise control against a sponge cake. Happy to see a big night by Ed despite the TOs, even against a cupcake (he wasn't doing that to cupcakes early in the season). Also like to see minutes and stat-stuffers from Joey and JC.

Big test Friday. Win and we put ourselves in position for a very nice seed if we can take care of business (1st or 2nd) in conference. Let's go Marquette!

Yeah! The team got an A on the Rust and Turnover finals last week.

[tower912]

I was very happy.    MU did what it was supposed to do
1.   Markus was efficient.
2.  Sam was efficient
3.   Ed was efficient. 
4.   Joe H stuffed the stat sheet.
5.   Brendan had a couple nice baskets
6.  Jamal had a couple of nice baskets
7.   Theo and Markus were able to play after briefly scary moments. 
8.   Held another opponent in the low 60's.   
9.    Yay

[tower912]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401083251

Box.   

[BCHoopster]

Sacar has to become more consistent for this team to take the next step.  2 points just does not hack it.  He will have to bring his A game to the Buffalo game.  He
will play big minutes next game as he will need to guard there best player.

[skianth16]

Sacar has to become more consistent for this team to take the next step.  2 points just does not hack it.  He will have to bring his A game to the Buffalo game.  He
will play big minutes next game as he will need to guard there best player.

It's more than just Sacar at this point. Outside of Markus, Joey, and Sam, we've seen a lot of ups and downs so far. Ed seems to be carving out his role, and Chartouny is looking more comfortable, so we're getting there. But more consistency from the role player types could help us continue to improve as a team.

[tower912]

HA! I just got it. Raggedy ND. Ha!

Have to say it out loud.   

[Otule's Glass Eye]

We’ve won 6 games in a row, 3 of them vs high quality opponents after losing by less than 10 to the undefeated #1 team in the country, playing probably the best consistent basketball we’ve played since 2013. No room for me to complain 

[Benny B]

Have to say it out loud.   

Tower... do you come up with these thread titles before the game and simply select the most apropos afterwards?  Or are truly being inspired by the game?

[barfolomew]

Tower... do you come up with these thread titles before the game and simply select the most apropos afterwards?  Or are truly being inspired by the game?

Respect the process.
Oh, sorry: #.

[MU82]

Sacar has to become more consistent for this team to take the next step.  2 points just does not hack it.  He will have to bring his A game to the Buffalo game.  He
will play big minutes next game as he will need to guard there best player.

Sacar has to do his job. Play great D, grab some boards, take care of the basketball. If he has a big offensive night, as he occasionally does, it's a very nice bonus.

We will almost always be Markus and Sam, and then get whatever we can from whichever role players are contributing offensively on any given night.

Look around college hoops and the NBA, and that's pretty normal. Your stars need to shine, and your role players need to do their jobs.

[lurch91]

1.  That was a hard stretch to watch in the first half when ND was stripping MU on every possession.
2.  And it was a hard stretch to watch when MU quit running offense in the second half.
3.  Theo hurt my eyes and my heart.
4.  So did Chartouny.  Dumb foul.
5.  So...many... turnovers.  I sense intense coaching between now and Friday.
6.  Buffalo is coming to town.  Buffalo is coming  to town.  They'll beat you if you're sleeping, you'd better be awake.  Close game if you're bad or good, so be good for Wojos sake.
7.  The walk ons played.  Nuff said.

We win by 26 after 10 days off for finals, and this sounds like UND could have drilled us.

Tower, when you having an MUBB game party? I'll bring the Bell's or Founder's.

[tower912]

They just come to me and I don't know.   

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

rough game to start,  was really impressed with morrow toughness that is much needed. 

tooney remains a liability at almost all times on the court against a little sisters of the poor team, really hope his play is more limited after this game.

[tower912]

Please explain how, with Greg red-shirting, you propose to limit Chartouny's time on the floor.

[skianth16]

Please explain how, with Greg red-shirting, you propose to limit Chartouny's time on the floor.

The same way we did against UW and Indiana, allocate more minutes to better contributors. When he's in, he runs the point, and when he's not in, we use Markus. Having JC playing so many minutes off the ball isn't ideal. Although, at the same time, he's a liability with the ball too often. It's tough, but if he doesn't step up in a big way soon, I see more benefit to increasing playing time for pretty much every other guy in the rotation than keeping him at his 22-25 min per game in conference play.

Greg hasn't played a minute this year. He's not even relevant to limiting Chartouny's minutes.

[tower912]

I don't see how you can limit minutes at guard with so few guards.  Chartouny will keep getting 20+ minutes.

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

Well when you have a player that seems to do more harm than good when with the ball its pretty easy to figure out how to limit the minutes.  Hes a warm body out there with fouls to give that's about it. 

I would say he has been 100% disappointment for what he was hyped up to be. 

[Its DJOver]

Well when you have a player that seems to do more harm than good when with the ball its pretty easy to figure out how to limit the minutes.  Hes a warm body out there with fouls to give that's about it. 

I would say he has been 100% disappointment for what he was hyped up to be.

I like how you only focus on one side of the ball.  He was billed as a defensive first player.  Our defense has been exponentially better than it was prior to his arrival.  The TOs are starting to become a real problem, but only focusing on offense, when a players specialty is defensive work is just being overly pessimistic.

[skianth16]

I like how you only focus on one side of the ball.  He was billed as a defensive first player.  Our defense has been exponentially better than it was prior to his arrival.  The TOs are starting to become a real problem, but only focusing on offense, when a players specialty is defensive work is just being overly pessimistic.

He was billed as a pass first, assist-heavy PG too. And on that end, he's coming up short. Our defense isn't lights out better this year just because of him. Ed and Joey are playing key roles on defense, and Markus has improved a ton. Joe's strength right now is his defense, but I don't think he's been such a standout or so much better than our other options for him to keep getting 20+ minutes. That said, I hope he proves me wrong and shines in conference play. I haven't seen enough to make me think that can happen just yet, though.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYR7-e2EETc

Wojo's post game comments at above link.

Question - who is the clown who starts to ask a question at the 3 minute mark and then babbles on for 30 seconds?  This dude does this every press conference.  Dude - no one is looking for your analysis.  Ask the fuc*ing question and move on. 

[Its DJOver]

He was billed as a pass first, assist-heavy PG too. And on that end, he's coming up short. Our defense isn't lights out better this year just because of him. Ed and Joey are playing key roles on defense, and Markus has improved a ton. Joe's strength right now is his defense, but I don't think he's been such a standout or so much better than our other options for him to keep getting 20+ minutes. That said, I hope he proves me wrong and shines in conference play. I haven't seen enough to make me think that can happen just yet, though.

The thing is, that Ed and Joey aren't guards though.  Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three.  They didn't do much keeping the combination of Davison, and Trice to only 10 points in 74 minutes.  Having them back there certainly helped, but that credit primarily goes to Joe and Sacar (coincidentally 4th and 5th in minutes, but recieve the most criticism about their offensive game). 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYR7-e2EETc

Wojo's post game comments at above link.

Question - who is the clown who starts to ask a question at the 3 minute mark and then babbles on for 30 seconds?  This dude does this every press conference.  Dude - no one is looking for your analysis.  Ask the fuc*ing question and move on.

Also found it kind of strange they cut out Wojo's comments about Greg's redshirt. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The thing is, that Ed and Joey aren't guards though.  Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three.  They didn't do much keeping the combination of Davison, and Trice to only 10 points in 74 minutes.  Having them back there certainly helped, but that credit primarily goes to Joe and Sacar (coincidentally 4th and 5th in minutes, but recieve the most criticism about their offensive game).

They absolutely had something to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 and holding Trice and Davison to 10 points. Now that doesn't mean that Joe hasn't been a great defender, but just because they are forwards it doesn't mean than that don't help defend opposing guards.

[Its DJOver]

They absolutely had something to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 and holding Trice and Davison to 10 points. Now that doesn't mean that Joe hasn't been a great defender, but just because they are forwards it doesn't mean than that don't help defend opposing guards.

Think you might be giving them a little too much credit.  As I said having them back there has helped, but the primary praise for those defensive showings should be going to Joe and Sacar (I don't remember Ed chasing Trice around too many screens, or off the three point line).  Credit to Joey and Ed for holding Wade and Azubuike the way they did, but there's a reason that neither Ed or Joey match up with the opposing teams PG on defense.

[skianth16]

The thing is, that Ed and Joey aren't guards though.  Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three.  They didn't do much keeping the combination of Davison, and Trice to only 10 points in 74 minutes.  Having them back there certainly helped, but that credit primarily goes to Joe and Sacar (coincidentally 4th and 5th in minutes, but recieve the most criticism about their offensive game).

All fair points. Joe has played well on defense in some key games, but the games you mentioned are also the ones where he played the fewest minutes too. It seems like his best contribution / most helpful role is to come in off the bench and limit his minutes from these examples. 

[Its DJOver]

All fair points. Joe has played well on defense in some key games, but the games you mentioned are also the ones where he played the fewest minutes too. It seems like his best contribution / most helpful role is to come in off the bench and limit his minutes from these examples.

Agree that he should still be coming off the bench, I just think it's unfair to criticize his entire game to this point.  His TOs, absolutely needs to clean it up and improve.  But he has been just about as advertised on D.  Remember it wasn't too long ago that we were essentially playing with 4 + a turnstile on the defensive end.

[tower912]

To the point (hah), if you cut Joe's minutes from 20+ to, say 12-15, who gets them?    Sacar is already playing 30, as is Markus.   Cain?  Why not.   He is so much stronger with the ball than Chartouny .      Bailey?    He has not turned the ball over, but you can hardly call him a playmaker and I don't think he can guard a quick 1 or 2.  (but he is the most likely).     Joey is already getting plenty of minutes.      And this leaves Markus as the 1 for 30+ minutes a game and gives him more opportunity for hero ball, which we know thrills so many.   

I think Joe continues to get 20+.    And I think he needs to for this team to reach its upper limit. 

[MU82]

Remember all the folks who vowed not to jump to conclusions about Chartouny because they embarrassed themselves when they jumped to conclusions about Lockett and Reinhardt?

[tower912]

I do, I do!

[skianth16]

Remember all the folks who vowed not to jump to conclusions about Chartouny because they embarrassed themselves when they jumped to conclusions about Lockett and Reinhardt?

We had quite a few on here saying that Harry would be a game changer once he just figured it out even into February or March last year too. The patient ones can be wrong too. Joe may improve and become a real impact player, but until he gets there, there is a real concern about the impact his TO rate has on our team.

 

[fjm]

Remember all the folks who vowed not to jump to conclusions about Chartouny because they embarrassed themselves when they jumped to conclusions about Lockett and Reinhardt?

Man. I even had to write a public apology on twitter to Katin because I was so exhausted by him early in that year. Turned out I was way wrong.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Think you might be giving them a little too much credit.  As I said having them back there has helped, but the primary praise for those defensive showings should be going to Joe and Sacar (I don't remember Ed chasing Trice around too many screens, or off the three point line).  Credit to Joey and Ed for holding Wade and Azubuike the way they did, but there's a reason that neither Ed or Joey match up with the opposing teams PG on defense.

I dont remember them chasing them around screens,  but I do remember Joe and Sacar occasionally getting beat by their assignment and Joey and Ed being the ones to step in and alter a shot.

You said Joey and Ed had "nothing to do with" defending the guards. That's simply not true. Defense is very much a team sport. Even on plays where the bigs were nowhere near the opposing guards, they can have huge impacts on defending them by denying entry passes, clogging up driving lanes, and pure intimidation. An opposing guard is less likely to drive knowing that a shot blocker is roaming the paint,  making them easier to defend.

Joe has absolutely helped on defense. That shouldn't devalue what others have done for the defense. The defender assigned to a player isn't the only one who has an impact on defending that player.

[MU82]

We had quite a few on here saying that Harry would be a game changer once he just figured it out even into February or March last year too. The patient ones can be wrong too. Joe may improve and become a real impact player, but until he gets there, there is a real concern about the impact his TO rate has on our team.

Reasonable point about Froling. But I guess my response would be, "What does all the worrying do for you? It's not going to change anything, but it will let you worry, so there's that. And now, with Elliott out, there's no other viable alternative. So we might as well be patient. Although panic is always fun, too."

JCS has had too many turnovers. Otherwise, he is doing just fine. Hopefully the problem gets corrected so his turnover rate is at an acceptable level ... and let's go win a conference title!

[Its DJOver]

I dont remember them chasing them around screens,  but I do remember Joe and Sacar occasionally getting beat by their assignment and Joey and Ed being the ones to step in and alter a shot.

You said Joey and Ed had "nothing to do with" defending the guards. That's simply not true. Defense is very much a team sport. Even on plays where the bigs were nowhere near the opposing guards, they can have huge impacts on defending them by denying entry passes, clogging up driving lanes, and pure intimidation. An opposing guard is less likely to drive knowing that a shot blocker is roaming the paint,  making them easier to defend.

Joe has absolutely helped on defense. That shouldn't devalue what others have done for the defense. The defender assigned to a player isn't the only one who has an impact on defending that player.

I also twice said that having them back there does help so please read my entire posts.  Not trying to take anything away from Ed or Joey, as evident from the praise for the job on Wade, but the praise should primarily be going to Joe and Sacar (another point that I have said twice).

Having active hands off the ball is important, but in your "nowhere near" scenarios, using the words "huge impact" is quite a big stretch.  Also, "pure intimidation", really?  I hope your kidding, because Theo is the most intimidating player Wojo has had, and he was last year too, and that didn't really help his DRtg.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I also twice said that having them back there does help so please read my entire posts.  Not trying to take anything away from Ed or Joey, as evident from the praise for the job on Wade, but the praise should primarily be going to Joe and Sacar (another point that I have said twice).

Having active hands off the ball is important, but in your "nowhere near" scenarios, using the words "huge impact" is quite a big stretch.  Also, "pure intimidation", really?  I hope your kidding, because Theo is the most intimidating player Wojo has had, and he was last year too, and that didn't really help his DRtg.

I did read your entire post. I agree with your general premise of Joe being valuable on defense. I am addressing a specific point that I disagree with, specifically "Joey did a helluva job on Wade against KSU, but had nothing to do with Brown and Stokes going 6-20 and 2-9 from three." That is not how defense works.

By pure intimidation I don't mean "looks intimidating." I mean that having a proven rim protector in the paint means an opposing guard may be less likely to drive the ball knowing that there is a rim protector in position to block it. It allows the guard defending him to be more aggressive in their on ball defense because they know if they get beat they have good help defenders behind them. This combo of rim protection and aggressive guards was the key to St. John's top 30 defense last season.

If I had to rank the reasons for the improved defense this season, it would go something like this:

1. The graduation of Andrew Rowsey
*BIG GAP*
2. Massive improvement from Howard (.641 ppp 85th percentile say what?)
3. Massive improvement from Theo and addition of other rim protectors
4. Increased length (pause)
5. Addition of Joe
6. Some changes to defensive scheme


This isn't the end all be all, but in case anyone is curious about the team's ppp allowed to date:

Theo .636 ppp 86th percentile
Markus .641 ppp 85th percentile
Chartouny .726 ppp 72nd percentile
Morrow .778 ppp 63rd percentile
Sam .785 ppp 61st percentile
Joey .827 ppp 52nd percentile
Sacar .845 ppp 48th percentile
Bailey .864 ppp 45th percentile
Heldt 1.095 ppp 10th percentile
Cain 1.143 ppp 6th percentile

SO much better than last season, I love it.

[Its DJOver]

Agree with 1
Agree with the big gap
Agree with 2
Do not agree with 3.  Joey and his 2 blocks on the season are not protecting the rim.  Despite Theo and Ed having good, but not great, block numbers, their foul numbers are WAY to high.  Theo has had at least 3 fouls in every single game this year, including an impressive 3 in 9 minutes Tuesday, 4 in 12 minutes against K-St, and 3 in 11 minutes against BC.  Ed hasn't fared much better, albeit in more limited minutes.  Tuesday was the second game in which Ed played more than 15 minutes without picking up at least 3.  This includes 4 in 16 min vs Char Sou, and K-St, and 4 in 17 min against UW.  It doesn't matter how far into the stands you shot gets blocked, if you get fouled.
I would put addition of Joe 3,  scheme 4, length 5, and Theo/Ed 6.

[MUMountin]

I'm not sure if it fits into scheme, but the big thing I've noticed this year on defense across the board is our footwork seems much better--most noticeable with Markus, but really seems improved across the board.  You can tell when we are really amped on the defensive end because everyone does a great job of moving their feet and staying in front of their man.  In years past we just looked so lazy on defense--we occasionally fall back into that for a few possessions, but not for long. 

[MU82]

I'm not sure if it fits into scheme, but the big thing I've noticed this year on defense across the board is our footwork seems much better--most noticeable with Markus, but really seems improved across the board.  You can tell when we are really amped on the defensive end because everyone does a great job of moving their feet and staying in front of their man.  In years past we just looked so lazy on defense--we occasionally fall back into that for a few possessions, but not for long.

Agreed.

I don't want to heap too much blame on Rowsey, because he was a net positive because of his offense, but he really was a very poor defender -- as in not the least bit interested in playing D. Many times, he literally would just step aside.

Defense is a team activity. When one link breaks with such little resistance, it is tough on the entire defense. Couple that with us not having a true shot-blocker, with many young players learning on the fly, and with a young-ish coach who also was still learning how to get to his players, and you had a defensive catastrophe.

We added better defenders, and many of the returnees have gotten better on defense. And Wojo probably figured out better ways to impart the importance of defensive commitment on his players, too. It's a confluence of things.

Again, I hope I don't sound like I'm pinning it all on Rowsey. I liked watching the guy play, and he was an offensive force who helped us win a lot of games.