Losing Formula: Kneejerk Substituting (Wojo's forte)

[Its DJOver]

30 mpg is not some magical barrier for starters in the college game.  last year Sacar averaged under 30,  16-17 everyone averaged under 30, 15-16 the only one who hit 30 per was Hank.

[wadesworld]

30 mpg is not some magical barrier for starters in the college game.  last year Sacar averaged under 30,  16-17 everyone averaged under 30, 15-16 the only one who hit 30 per was Hank.

Yeah.  Very few starters in the country average 30 MPG.  I'd venture to guess, on average, maybe 2 players per team average 30 MPG in the NCAA.

[GGGG]

Buzz rarely had starters go more than 30.  (But one of them was Derrick Wilson in 13-14.)

[mu03eng]

The 30 min mark was eclipsed (on average) by 23 BE players last year, 19 in 2017, 17 in 2016.....31 ACC players in 2018, 30 in 2017, and 33 in 2016. Just some examples


So I think it's safe to say that typically 2 players per team get 30 minutes or more a season. Those also tend to be the very best players so I'm not sure how it's relevant to TC, but whatevs these are the facts we have.

[Floorslapper]

WTH are you talking about in your response? You said

It is not 4.5 seasons into Wojo's tenure unless you're expecting there to be 8 games this year. Nowhere did I mention Traci or anything else

Try to follow along - the post of mine you quoted - the topic was Traci - and him not starting the first 3 games of that season/and not getting major minutes.

[Galway Eagle]

Try to follow along - the post of mine you quoted - the topic was Traci - and him not starting the first 3 games of that season/and not getting major minutes.

I am trying to follow along so please break down what the 4 and half year timeline is too me because I'm apparently too thick to understand and the others that agreed with what I said can't follow either.

[Floorslapper]

The 30 min mark was eclipsed (on average) by 23 BE players last year, 19 in 2017, 17 in 2016.....31 ACC players in 2018, 30 in 2017, and 33 in 2016. Just some examples


So I think it's safe to say that typically 2 players per team get 30 minutes or more a season. Those also tend to be the very best players so I'm not sure how it's relevant to TC, but whatevs these are the facts we have.

Thanks for the research.  PG is the most important position on the floor.  Good things happened for that team in the games Traci played 30+.  Went 7-1 with the one loss to Number 1 Villanova.  Felt it was a no-brainer that year that Traci was far and away the clear cut, best pure PG on the roster and should have been maximized  - not played 59% of the minutes for the season.  Would have played him 70-75% of minutes.

[Floorslapper]

I am trying to follow along so please break down what the 4 and half year timeline is too me because I'm apparently too thick to understand and the others that agreed with what I said can't follow either.

The topic was Traci not starting the first 3 games of the season.  As for the 4.5 year comment, that is calendar year time Wojo's been on the job.

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Re: Losing Formula: Kneejerk Substituting (Wojo's forte)
« Reply #109 on: Today at 07:52:04 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 18, 2018, 11:16:51 AM
Fixed.  Traci's minutes were all over the place all season long.

We missed the NIT.  Results speak for themselves.  With a one and done on the roster.  Finished 97th in the country in Ken Pom. 

Yes.  It's an honor, actually. 

The inability of some of you to have the emotional fortitude to tolerate a different opinion than your own is really quite "snowflake." 

But then again, I get it - it probably is frustrating to have put all your chips on Wojo and now 4.5 years in without an NCAA tourney win, 2 missed NIT's and one NIT Quarterfinal - to have to try to pretzel logic yourself into a position of suggesting he's a good coach.

In what world is 4 games into a possible 40 game season equal to half of the season?
« Last Edit: Today at 08:27:56 AM by Galway Eagle »

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Traci isn't even getting 30 minutes a game at 0-4 LaSalle....with two extra years of development. Still early so that could change.

Try to follow along - the post of mine you quoted - the topic was Traci - and him not starting the first 3 games of that season/and not getting major minutes.

The 4.5 years thing is an excellent example. Ners, often no one has issue with your main premise. You think Traci should have played more minutes. Not everyone will agree but that is a more than reasonable opinion. But then you say things like "we're 4.5 years into Wojo's tenure" when we're only 4 games into season 5. That's what people are usually questioning.

[Galway Eagle]

The topic was Traci not starting the first 3 games of the season.  As for the 4.5 year comment, that is calendar year time Wojo's been on the job.

Who goes by that for a timeline? That's like me faulting Wojo for no wins from April to October his first year.

Again I wasn't commenting on anything to do with traci, I was merely curious why you chose four and a half years

[Floorslapper]

Who goes by that for a timeline? That's like me faulting Wojo for no wins from April to October his first year.

Again I wasn't commenting on anything to do with traci, I was merely curious why you chose four and a half years

That's fine.  The post you quoted, the "lead" was regarding Traci.  The point in the last paragraph about 4.5 years of Wojo's tenure was simply a statement of fact as to how long he's been on the job and the results thus far.

Traci isn't even getting 30 minutes a game at 0-4 LaSalle....with two extra years of development. Still early so that could change.

The 4.5 years thing is an excellent example. Ners, often no one has issue with your main premise. You think Traci should have played more minutes. Not everyone will agree but that is a more than reasonable opinion. But then you say things like "we're 4.5 years into Wojo's tenure" when we're only 4 games into season 5. That's what people are usually questioning.

Yea, Traci is averaging 27.25 minutes thus far at La Salle under their first-time head coach.  He's been a little slower out of the gate than I would have thought, but considering he's not played in a real college game for 1.5 years, perhaps partially to explain.

[mu03eng]

I'd like to unsubscribe to the Traci should have played more narrative. It's just mental masturbation at this point regardless of your viewpoint.

[skianth16]

Further, you seem to be down on the Howard as PG era, and while I have my concerns, what exactly do you have issue with regarding Howard as PG?

His turnovers can be inexplicably bad. Last year, we saw him struggle to break even modest press pressure. The ball doesn't flow as well when he runs point. He doesn't score as well when he runs point. We see more hero ball when he brings the ball up. Simply put, he becomes a worse basketball player when he's out of his natural position.

Markus is a very talented player, so I'm sure he could figure it out in time. But he's so good at the 2, why would you want to pull him away from that spot? His basketball IQ seems to change when he runs the point too. His decision-making just isn't as good, and he doesn't seem to be comfortable distributing the ball.

Just my two cents from the last 1.5 seasons 

[Floorslapper]

I'd like to unsubscribe to the Traci should have played more narrative. It's just mental masturbation at this point regardless of your viewpoint.

The relevant context was:  Will Wojo once again stubbornly try to square peg the round hole and play Markus at PG this season while limiting Chartouney - as he did many times with Cheatham over Carter?

Let's hope Joe's in the starting lineup from here moving forward and that Wojo lock in on a solid and consistent starting 5, with guys having a consistent role.

[wadesworld]

The relevant context was:  Will Wojo once again stubbornly try to square peg the round hole and play Markus at PG this season while limiting Chartouney - as he did many times with Cheatham over Carter?

Let's hope Joe's in the starting lineup from here moving forward and that Wojo lock in on a solid and consistent starting 5, with guys having a consistent role.

Cheatham played very, very little point guard.

[GGGG]

Let's not act as if Traci was some all star at point guard.  He turned the ball over A TON.  Haanif wasn't great at point either no doubt, but its not as though he had Tiny Archibald waiting on the bench.

[mu03eng]

The relevant context was:  Will Wojo once again stubbornly try to square peg the round hole and play Markus at PG this season while limiting Chartouney - as he did many times with Cheatham over Carter?

Let's hope Joe's in the starting lineup from here moving forward and that Wojo lock in on a solid and consistent starting 5, with guys having a consistent role.

Context: It's in Markus' best long term interests to play PG at MU. Chartouney is new to the team and isn't going to go max minutes at the PG position 4 games into a season.

Further context: Haanif played very little PG over TC in 2016....in fact, Haanif doesn't even show up as a PG in Kenpom and TC averaged 24 min at PG as a freshman. In 2017 TC was replaced by Rowsey and Markus at the point(not Haanif), certainly arguably to be better talent at the position than TC given how TC has done at LaSalle.

[wadesworld]

Context: It's in Markus' best long term interests to play PG at MU. Chartouney is new to the team and isn't going to go max minutes at the PG position 4 games into a season.

Further context: Haanif played very little PG over TC in 2016....in fact, Haanif doesn't even show up as a PG in Kenpom and TC averaged 24 min at PG as a freshman. In 2017 TC was replaced by Rowsey and Markus at the point(not Haanif), certainly arguably to be better talent at the position than TC given how TC has done at LaSalle.

Not to mention Traci sited the talent at point guard in his reason as to why he was transferring.

Then again, Ners likes to say that when Burton sited his mother's passing as a reason he was transferring from Marquette he really meant Wojo was playing mind games with him and he wasn't getting the playing time he should've been seeing, so...

[BM1090]

Since sample size is apparently irrelevant here, Traci is averaging 6 points and 3.8 assists per game in 27 minutes per game at LaSalle. He is shooting 38%.

1 of his 4 games has been against a high major team.

I liked Traci, but he didn't have a path to playing time here as an upperclassman. He's just not good enough.

[brewcity77]

Cheatham played very, very little point guard.

Don't let facts get in the way of a Ners narrative.

[Floorslapper]

Cheatham played very, very little point guard.

Don't let facts get in the way of a Ners narrative.

You two might want to take a closer look into the data.  Here's Traci's season:

Games 1-3:  Not a starter
Games 4 - 18:  Starter
Games 19 - 29:  Not a starter
Games 30-33:  Starter

So, Traci started 18 games, didn't 15 games.  Duane Wilson RARELY was running PG that season.  Cheatham played PG most of the time Traci didn't play.

The last 5 games of the season Eng referenced, as Pomeroy's charts show, of course Traci was in the most common lineups - because he started 4 of last 5 games and played 30+ in three of those 5 games.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Guess the topic won't die. 

he said, without a trace of irony or self-awareness.

[Herman Cain]

Since sample size is apparently irrelevant here, Traci is averaging 6 points and 3.8 assists per game in 27 minutes per game at LaSalle. He is shooting 38%.

1 of his 4 games has been against a high major team.

I liked Traci, but he didn't have a path to playing time here as an upperclassman. He's just not good enough.

It is worth noting that Traci is also averaging 3 steals and 3 rebounds  a game with a solid Assist to turnover ratio.

[mu03eng]

You two might want to take a closer look into the data.  Here's Traci's season:

Games 1-3:  Not a starter
Games 4 - 18:  Starter
Games 19 - 29:  Not a starter
Games 30-33:  Starter

So, Traci started 18 games, didn't 15 games.  Duane Wilson RARELY was running PG that season.  Cheatham played PG most of the time Traci didn't play.

The last 5 games of the season Eng referenced, as Pomeroy's charts show, of course Traci was in the most common lineups - because he started 4 of last 5 games and played 30+ in three of those 5 games.

I'm on my phone so can't post all the numbers but this is factually inaccurate. Even when TC didn't "start" there wasn't an appreciable difference in his minutes played and HC played no PG until sophomore year

[mu03eng]

It is worth noting that Traci is also averaging 3 steals and 3 rebounds  a game with a solid Assist to turnover ratio.

Well $hit, we had a 10 to 1 kill ratio on the ground in Vietnam....bet we won that war