Lovell

[tower912]

http://thecatholicspirit.com/special-sections/legislative-guide/7-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching/

A primer of Catholic social teaching

[mu03eng]

The announcement of the Aurora Sports Institute that led to splitting the planned joint facility with the Bucks, followed by Aurora dropping out, was a fiasco to say the least. Led to a lot of dominos falling in ways that didn't help the University or basketball program.

That for me was the biggest public misstep. Hurt the relationship with Bucks owners, may have impacted lease negotiations, rendered the 7th & Michigan location useless so that now city officials want MU to turn the old Radisson into a homeless shelter, led to a smaller facility by the Al, which in turn will take parking away from Gesu church goers, all for a sponsor that pulled its sponsorship.

I still support Lovell and hope he learns from that one, but it was a really poor decision, and one that was obviously poor both in the moment and in the long term.

To be fair though, the mistake was trusting the Bucks ownership. There was some backroom stuff going on there that was outside of Lovell's control and had he been dealing with above board folks probably works out anyway. C'est la vie.

But it is a good point about an area where Lovell has failed.

[rocket surgeon]

He's whining that Marquette is too liberal.

Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face.  There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences.  I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here.  I can respect what you believe if you respect mine. 

Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side.  What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools.  I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view. 

On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following

[GGGG]

Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face.  There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences.  I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here.  I can respect what you believe if you respect mine. 

Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side.  What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools.  I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view. 

On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following

You watch too much Fox News.

I mean you honestly think you’re gonna have a nice discussion whe your opening take is that Marquette University is too liberal?

[mu03eng]

I really believe that if some of these schools could stop veering away from their roots and bring back the core “MU” values, they would be looked upon as doing something refreshing and different. most schools are continuing to try to ram the square peg thru the round hole, because they know better what the alumni want.  That is, allowing for a glaring disparity in ideologies of thought.  MU, if it made a conscience effort to truly allow for good old fashioned debate and diversity of opinions, it could then set itself apart from the others.

   You do not(or maybe some do) realize how many people Out there who echo the same sentiments.  It’s like the the universities are trying to establish a “new normal”.  I know I’m going to get some blow back here, but argue it all you want.  From the outside looking in, it’s changed and the changes have cost schools some money.  They will never know how much because these people just shut down and go away.  People are noticing the UN-level playing field and do not feel their values are being represented anymore. 

Disclaimer, I am trying very hard to keep this apolitical, and if we can, it could be a very informative and influential thread(got that 82?) if it evolves into a shouting match?  It goes no where and the same old same old will continue on.

Follow-up, what debate is MU stifling? What conversations aren't happening because of MU's policies?

[mu03eng]

Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face.  There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences.  I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here.  I can respect what you believe if you respect mine. 

Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side.  What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools.  I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view. 

On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following

Do you think MU isn't getting "conservative" students? What students are being turned away by MU's policies? I suspect you are correct about the university being too "liberal" but that is from the prism of an alumni, not a student audience. Does the universities mission and vision align with the potential student population that turns them into loyal alumni that then become donors to the mission and vision. The alumni base is always going to have a secondary concern because MU has to focus on turning out more alumni to be viable long term.

[Pakuni]

Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face.  There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences.  I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here.  I can respect what you believe if you respect mine. 

Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side.  What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools.  I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view. 

On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get across here ... but it sounds an awful lot like you're suggesting political conservatism was a "core value" for Marquette. If that's your point, I disagree.

[rocket surgeon]

I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959.  He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society,  he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others.  He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others

  He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years

He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.

Sully-skip the Fox News crap.  It has nothing to do with this

[theBabyDavid]

http://thecatholicspirit.com/special-sections/legislative-guide/7-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching/

A primer of Catholic social teaching

The two seminal works on Catholic social awareness are Merton's Seven Storey Mountain and Augustine's Confessions.

Mandatory reading for contemplative discernment on faith and consciousness.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Do you think MU isn't getting "conservative" students? What students are being turned away by MU's policies? I suspect you are correct about the university being too "liberal" but that is from the prism of an alumni, not a student audience. Does the universities mission and vision align with the potential student population that turns them into loyal alumni that then become donors to the mission and vision. The alumni base is always going to have a secondary concern because MU has to focus on turning out more alumni to be viable long term.

rs's comments are weird.  I heard from an MU Alum recently (who does not come to this board) who said he sent all his kids to Madison because he thought MU was too conservative. 

[theBabyDavid]

You watch too much Fox News.

I mean you honestly think you’re gonna have a nice discussion whe your opening take is that Marquette University is too liberal?

I do believe that the atmosphere on the Marquette campus is markedly more liberal today than it was in my era or any earlier. I would also suggest that this is true of almost all campuses in America.

If one reads the works of Bobby Seales, Abbie Hoffmann, and, in particular, Tom Hayden, the radical left of the 1960's concluded that confrontation was ineffectual vis a vis a well armed elite ruling class. Therefore, and this was a stated plank of the SDS, the path of least resistance to effect real political cultural change was through the education system.

Even Seales and Huey Newton agreed that an armed insurrection was foolish; real change could be best achieved the lectern and not the barrel of an AK.

The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.     

 

[GGGG]

I do believe that the atmosphere on the Marquette campus is markedly more liberal today than it was in my era or any earlier. I would also suggest that this is true of almost all campuses in America.

If one reads the works of Bobby Seales, Abbie Hoffmann, and, in particular, Tom Hayden, the radical left of the 1960's concluded that confrontation was ineffectual vis a vis a well armed elite ruling class. Therefore, and this was a stated plank of the SDS, the path of least resistance to effect real political cultural change was through the education system.

Even Seales and Huey Newton agreed that an armed insurrection was foolish; real change could be best achieved the lectern and not the barrel of an AK.

The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.     

🙄

I have no doubt the faculty is lore liberal in the past. But the idea that debate is squelched and students are somehow indoctrinated is pretty silly.

[GGGG]

I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959.  He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society,  he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others.  He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others

  He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years

He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.

Sully-skip the Fox News crap.  It has nothing to do with this

Your dad should watch less Fox News.

[Pakuni]

The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.   

Seriously, no one born after 1956 has been threatened with conscription in this country. Academia in 2018 is not, in fact, ruled by 62+-year-old hippy draft dodgers.

[theBabyDavid]

rs's comments are weird.  I heard from an MU Alum recently (who does not come to this board) who said he sent all his kids to Madison because he thought MU was too conservative.

Nutmeg

Then your friend has a clear political bias. When I think about my brood and their decision-making process re college enrollment, political environment was never a factor. In every case their thinking was guided by longer term interests and which program and curricula met those goals. One son did have a sports related factor which, frankly, was a core interest of his at that point in his life.

Our daughter and son #2 ended up matriculating at colleges which were at the epicenter of the '60's Free Speech Movement - Columbia and Michigan - but neither ever felt the political environment of those campuses detracted from the learning experience.

A parent intervening in a child's college decision such as you suggest has some deeper issues that need address.   

[jesmu84]

I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959.  He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society,  he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others.  He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others

  He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years

He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.

Sully-skip the Fox News crap.  It has nothing to do with this

What - specifically - doesn't he like?

[mu_hilltopper]

The size of endowments has always blown me away.   Seems like an enormous pile of money.  And the request is never ending, it's never enough.

Sure, sure, it "guarantees MU's long term future."   How far does $670m get you versus $1b?     

[mu03eng]

I do believe that the atmosphere on the Marquette campus is markedly more liberal today than it was in my era or any earlier. I would also suggest that this is true of almost all campuses in America.

If one reads the works of Bobby Seales, Abbie Hoffmann, and, in particular, Tom Hayden, the radical left of the 1960's concluded that confrontation was ineffectual vis a vis a well armed elite ruling class. Therefore, and this was a stated plank of the SDS, the path of least resistance to effect real political cultural change was through the education system.

Even Seales and Huey Newton agreed that an armed insurrection was foolish; real change could be best achieved the lectern and not the barrel of an AK.

The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.   

Crash

Are the campus' more progressive in contrast to society as a whole or has society become more progressive than it was in the 70s and 80s at the same "rate" as campuses? As we get older, we tend to be more fixed in our views, more nostalgic for our day that bring sharp relief to where society has moved in the meantime with new ideas and new experiences of younger generations. So from our relatively fixed perspective it looks like campuses are more progressive than we experienced, but I'd argue its not out of line to where society itself is going.

There is no doubt that the concepts and conversations taking place on campus are different than they were when I was a freshman just like they are different from when you were a freshman, but that doesn't mean they are objectively bad concepts or conversations, just different and very likely aligned with society generally.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Nutmeg

Then your friend has a clear political bias. When I think about my brood and their decision-making process re college enrollment, political environment was never a factor. In every case their thinking was guided by longer term interests and which program and curricula met those goals. One son did have a sports related factor which, frankly, was a core interest of his at that point in his life.

Our daughter and son #2 ended up matriculating at colleges which were at the epicenter of the '60's Free Speech Movement - Columbia and Michigan - but neither ever felt the political environment of those campuses detracted from the learning experience.

A parent intervening in a child's college decision such as you suggest has some deeper issues that need address.   

Crash - that was my thoughts also. 
I do not think his perception is true and I'm going through a similar thing now with my daughter as a high school Senior.  I want her to end up where she feels is the best fit for her.

[theBabyDavid]

Seriously, no one born after 1956 has been threatened with conscription in this country. Academia in 2018 is not, in fact, ruled by 62+-year-old hippy draft dodgers.

Your red herring misses the point entirely. My comment is not about the draft.

An inability to argue properly is one of the fundamental problems with civil society today. Thank you for providing an excellent example of obtuse foolishness.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959.  He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society,  he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others.  He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others

  He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years

He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.

Sully-skip the Fox News crap.  It has nothing to do with this

So what?  Your dad is extremely conservative and doesn't like what, exactly?

[theBabyDavid]

🙄

I have no doubt the faculty is lore liberal in the past. But the idea that debate is squelched and students are somehow indoctrinated is pretty silly.

The assertion that free speech is not under attack and that discourse on college campuses has not been politicized is absurd. I will only cite "liberal" news outlets.

I have received correspondence from the leadership of Harvard University specifically addressing the rise of intolerance in thought and discourse on that campus.

Not sure what your perspective is but the rise of intolerance on college campuses is not just distrurbing but an actual threat to our democratic values.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-glaring-evidence-that-free-speech-is-threatened-on-campus/471825/

https://www.salon.com/2015/09/30/free_speech_for_all_on_campus_unless_youre_criticizing_israel_that_is/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/free-speech-is-flunking-out-on-college-campuses/2015/10/22/124e7cd2-78f5-11e5-b9c1-f03c48c96ac2_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2d2c93e04fad

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff/the-10-worst-colleges-for_b_9243000.html


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/us/politics/justice-department-campus-free-speech.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FFreedom%20of%20Speech%20and%20Expression&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=10&pgtype=collection


https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/us/campus-free-speech-trnd/index.html

[theBabyDavid]

The size of endowments has always blown me away.   Seems like an enormous pile of money.  And the request is never ending, it's never enough.

Sure, sure, it "guarantees MU's long term future."   How far does $670m get you versus $1b?   

Endowments must be relative. A value (ie $670 MM) is meaningless without context.

The University of Michigan has an endowment of $11 Billion and recently concluded a fund drive that generated $5 Billion. One can say that MU doesn't compete with U of M but the fact is that it does. When a college raises $5 billion in one drive it alters the total landscape.

If MU's endowment is half that of SLU and a quarter that of BC then Lovell needs to get to work.

MU's endowment of $670 MM might seem like a big number but in context it is not enough to ensure relevance in an increasingly competitive environment

https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-michigan-raises-5-billion-others-close-behind-1538658001

[Pakuni]

Your red herring misses the point entirely. My comment is not about the draft.

An inability to argue properly is one of the fundamental problems with civil society today. Thank you for providing an excellent example of obtuse foolishness.

Yeah, it was about the draft. You said the radical left was "armed with PhD's earned through draft deferments." Which is, of course, asinine, given that no one under the age of 62 has ever needed a draft deferment.
Sorry to have pointed our your very bad take.
Your failure to support what you wrote, replaced instead by your standard masturbatory drivel, is typical.

[jficke13]

Nutmeg

Then your friend has a clear political bias. [...]

I had a friend say something similar. e.g. Wanting to send his kid to UW because MU was too liberal. Although that may suggest he has a clear political bias, it more accurately tells me he's an idiot.

Like saying I don't want to eat veal because it's inhumane, I only eat foie gras.