no homo (nh)

[Lennys Tap]

Uh. Try again. It isn't about being morally superior.

Not totally - there also a good deal of condescending, too. Your post is a good example.

[GGGG]

But this can go sideways when a perceived block of like minded thinkers all act in unison, don't you think?

Doesn't happen. Nice try.

[reinko]

But this can go sideways when a perceived block of like minded thinkers all act in unison, don't you think?  Outraged by some things, wholly supportive of others that might outrage the other side.

100% agree. but I hope to most of us, making overtly sexual comments posts about another posters kids is a cause for at the very least "mild outrage".

[GGGG]

Not totally - there also a good deal of condescending, too. Your post is a good example.

Oh I fully admit to being condescending when the point is moronic. That will never change.

[Lennys Tap]

Being morally, ethically, politically and intellectually superior is awesome, and not at all exhausting.

Finally something you and JayBee can agree on!

[WarriorDad]

Sure, I disagree with all of them. I work in Title IX compliance in case you didn't know.


Also, for every person who says "believe the survivors" there is at least one  saying that most survivors are liars.

You make excellent points, but also some questions that will remain for my wife and I.  This week I have read some people that say believe the survivors and nothing more. That is dangerous.  My wife and I were blessed to have multiple children and multiple genders.  Having daughters and sons for any parent makes this very tough.

No one wants their daughters to ever be sexually assaulted in any way, and we all know it has happened throughout history. It is disgusting, criminal, hateful, disrespectful.  But I don't think parents of sons want their boys kicked out of school, denied job promotions, etc, based on the accusations that are not provable, either.   

That presents a terrible dilemma.  You have a tough job.  You have to get it right or there are consequences.  My heart goes out to you, it also goes out to the women assaulted, and to the men wrongfully accused. Whether that number is 2%, 8% or 17% in the articles I have read.  No question crimes are under reported because women do not want to deal with it.  We also cannot ignore the impacts to men charged by women that proved to be 100% wrong. 

What has always struck me at the college level in how this is handled is the right to face your accuser.  Am I wrong, or has it not been allowed?  It isn't a court of law where one always has that right, but when people can be kicked out of school based on allegations, why should the accused not be allowed to confront their accuser?  As a matter of fairness? 

If my interpretation is wrong, please correct me.

[WarriorDad]

Doesn't happen. Nice try.

It does happen, if you don't recognize and others do that should tell you something.

[Pakuni]

What has always struck me at the college level in how this is handled is the right to face your accuser.  Am I wrong, or has it not been allowed?  It isn't a court of law where one always has that right, but when people can be kicked out of school based on allegations, why should the accused not be allowed to confront their accuser?  As a matter of fairness? 

A college disciplinary board is not a court of law, and being privately punished or even expelled from school is not the same as losing one's freedom or a public criminal record.

[GGGG]

It does happen, if you don't recognize and others do that should tell you something.

Nah. You're just being the aggrieved victim you've always been.

[Jockey]

No, it was the obvious condescension in your tone

I heard that too 

How about nobody respond to the drunk? Problem solved.

[jesmu84]

100% agree. but I hope to most of us, making overtly sexual comments posts about another posters kids is a cause for at the very least "mild outrage".

I agree with this analysis

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You make excellent points, but also some questions that will remain for my wife and I.  This week I have read some people that say believe the survivors and nothing more. That is dangerous.  My wife and I were blessed to have multiple children and multiple genders.  Having daughters and sons for any parent makes this very tough.

No one wants their daughters to ever be sexually assaulted in any way, and we all know it has happened throughout history. It is disgusting, criminal, hateful, disrespectful.  But I don't think parents of sons want their boys kicked out of school, denied job promotions, etc, based on the accusations that are not provable, either.   

That presents a terrible dilemma.  You have a tough job.  You have to get it right or there are consequences.  My heart goes out to you, it also goes out to the women assaulted, and to the men wrongfully accused. Whether that number is 2%, 8% or 17% in the articles I have read.  No question crimes are under reported because women do not want to deal with it.  We also cannot ignore the impacts to men charged by women that proved to be 100% wrong. 

What has always struck me at the college level in how this is handled is the right to face your accuser.  Am I wrong, or has it not been allowed?  It isn't a court of law where one always has that right, but when people can be kicked out of school based on allegations, why should the accused not be allowed to confront their accuser?  As a matter of fairness? 

If my interpretation is wrong, please correct me.

First, I would challenge your use of pronouns a bit. While yes a majority of assaults are male against female, women can be the perpetrators and men can be the victim/survivors. I had a case just last week were we found a female student responsible for domestic violence against her boyfriend.

As for the rest, you are mostly correct. Technically, there are no universal rules at the moment. The current administration rescinded all guidance on Title IX so schools are free to interpret it as they see fit. Most universities are sticking to the Obama era guidelines until new ones are issued.

Under the Obama era guidelines, universities are not required to allow the accused to directly cross examine the accuser. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to cross examine them indirectly. Complainants have the right to choose whether or not they wish to participate in the panel process. If they choose not to, then the accused will never have an opportunity to ask them questions directly. This also means that the complainant doesn't get a chance to answer the panel's question to strengthen his or her own case. When the complainant doesn't participate, then the only evidence that is considered is the accused's testimony, any witness testimony, and the investigation report. The complainant is required to have access to the investigation report, including the interviews of the complainant, so they can directly address and challenge anything said by the complainant. The complainant is then not able to respond to any challenges or disputes brought forward by the accused. Accused students can also choose not to participate in the process. The panel will then hear the case in absentia and the decision is based on the investigation report, any witness testimony, and the testimony of the complainant (if they choose to participate).

If both students do participate in the process then universities are "strongly discouraged" from allowing them to directly cross examine each other. Different universities interpret this differently. Some don't allow cross examination period. Others allow cross examination through a third party of over the phone. Both parties are required to be allowed to hear the testimony of the other. So while they can't directly question each other, they can respond to each other's testimony and ask the panel to ask the other specific questions.

So while yes, accused students do not always get to directly cross examine their accuser, they do get to cross examine them indirectly. This would not be appropriate in a court of law but this is not a court of law. This is a disciplinary board. The priority of the disciplinary board is ensure a safe academic environment for all students, both accused and complainant. Whereas the legal process is concerned with the rights and wellbeing of the accused, the university process is concerned wit the rights and wellbeing of both students equally. If one gets access to a lawyer, then both get access to a lawyer. If one doesn't get to cross examine directly than neither gets to cross examine directly.

The reason I don't buy the due process argument is that sexual assault is the only kind of rule violation that any one is up in arms about. No one cares when a student is found responsible for cheating, drugs, alcohol, theft, physical assault, etc. In those case there is even less due process, accused students aren't allowed to cross examine directly, indirectly, or at all.

You bring up that parents don't want to see their sons kicked out of school. That's part of the problem. Even if faced with overwhelming evidence, most parents will refuse to even entertain they idea that their child could do something like this. I've seen it first hand in the cases I've worked. I even had a conversation with my own parents when the Brock Turner case was going on where I asked them if I or my brother had done something like this would they stand by us. They answered without hesitation that they would and would never believe that we were capable of something like that. I don't have children, so I don't know what its like to be a parent, but even if its a bitter pill to swallow, I feel like we should want our sons and daughters to be held accountable when they make a mistake. Instead, most of what I see is parents fighting tooth and nail to get back at schools for holding their children accountable. Were some of them falsely accused or sanctioned too harshly? Absolutely, it's not a perfect system, no system is. Most of them did do exactly what they were accused of, but 99% of parents think that their child is one of the few.

[mu_hilltopper]

No, it was the obvious condescension in your tone

You know what?  You got me.   You might not be the most outraged, but you're the #1 reporter on Scoop.  You're likely our #1 moderation critic as well. 

I believe you'd be happier using the ignore tool.

[🏀]

You know what?  You got me.   You might not be the most outraged, but you're the #1 reporter on Scoop.  You're likely our #1 moderation critic as well. 

I believe you'd be happier using the ignore tool.

Message Board Hall Monitor, time to update that LinkedIn profile.

[reinko]

You know what?  You got me.   You might not be the most outraged, but you're the #1 reporter on Scoop.  You're likely our #1 moderation critic as well. 

I believe you'd be happier using the ignore tool.

I repeat, this is not the hill I am gonna die on Topper, but it can you say in plain English, it's not okay for one for one poster to use sexually charged language against another posters' children.

[brewcity77]

You know what?  You got me.   You might not be the most outraged, but you're the #1 reporter on Scoop.  You're likely our #1 moderation critic as well. 

I believe you'd be happier using the ignore tool.

I'm not unhappy.

And yes, I use the tool, not just for discriminatory comments like Jay Bee, but for threads posted in the wrong forum, for duplicate threads that should be merged, and other basic moderation items for which the tool exists.

I use the tool on other forums as well. Because I've never viewed the simple act of reporting a post as criticism. It's just using the tools of the website to help the mods.

[D'Lo Brown]

I'm not unhappy.

And yes, I use the tool, not just for discriminatory comments like Jay Bee, but for threads posted in the wrong forum, for duplicate threads that should be merged, and other basic moderation items for which the tool exists.

I use the tool on other forums as well. Because I've never viewed the simple act of reporting a post as criticism. It's just using the tools of the website to help the mods.

The mods are against the "report to moderator" tool. Hence, this thread. Maybe they'd be "happier" without it.

[Archies Bat]

The mods are against the "report to moderator" tool. Hence, this thread. Maybe they'd be "happier" without it.

Beat me too it.

And they also should not get involved in these debates, IMHO.  Just mod.  You usually do it very well.

[WarriorDad]

A college disciplinary board is not a court of law, and being privately punished or even expelled from school is not the same as losing one's freedom or a public criminal record.

Being expelled from school can have life consequences, you seem very matter of fact as if this is no big deal.  It is a big deal, and should be a big deal.  In some cases there are only a few schools in the country that have particular programs and if someone is booted, they may never be able to go to a school with that field of expertise to study again, breaking a life long dream.

It is dangerous and complex, but let us not sell the impacts short to those accused wrongfully. 

[WarriorDad]

First, I would challenge your use of pronouns a bit. While yes a majority of assaults are male against female, women can be the perpetrators and men can be the victim/survivors. I had a case just last week were we found a female student responsible for domestic violence against her boyfriend.

Most of them did do exactly what they were accused of, but 99% of parents think that their child is one of the few.

Yes, women can be accused of this, too. 

I understand your last sentence, but I am talking about where this has happened and later found to be a wrongful accusation.  Are the male students allowed back to school? Should they be?  If I recall, several students have won lawsuits against schools in the last few years. Maybe this is their only recourse the get back their good name.

[reinko]

Yes, women can be accused of this, too. 

I understand your last sentence, but I am talking about where this has happened and later found to be a wrongful accusation.  Are the male students allowed back to school? Should they be?  If I recall, several students have won lawsuits against schools in the last few years. Maybe this is their only recourse the get back their good name.

Yet to hear your opinion of people who use the term that is the title of thread, or posters who use sexually charged language about kids of others posters.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Being expelled from school can have life consequences, you seem very matter of fact as if this is no big deal.  It is a big deal, and should be a big deal.  In some cases there are only a few schools in the country that have particular programs and if someone is booted, they may never be able to go to a school with that field of expertise to study again, breaking a life long dream.

It is dangerous and complex, but let us not sell the impacts short to those accused wrongfully.

A couple of things.

1. Most students who are found responsible for sexual assault are not expelled.
2. In the grand scheme of things, its not that big of a deal. Students are able to enroll at another school instantly and continue their college careers if they so choose. Is it impactful? Absolutely. Does the impact even remotely compare to the possible sanctions in criminal and civil court? No, which is why the lower standard of evidence and due process is warranted. Also, civil court uses the same standard of evidence as the university process yet can dole out much harsher sanctions, why no outrage there?
3. I am unaware of any career or field of expertise that requires that a person go to a specific university. Maybe I'm wrong, if I am please point it out to me. It may not be at their university of choice but expelled students will be able to continue their studies in their desired field of study if they so choose.

Making the decision to expel a student is a significant one. It should only been done when the accused is going to be a threat to the safety of his/herself, others, or the academic environment of the college.  That's why it is not used in most cases. You are right that it should be taken seriously, but let's not go the other direction and make it more than it actually is.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I understand your last sentence, but I am talking about where this has happened and later found to be a wrongful accusation.  Are the male students allowed back to school? Should they be?  If I recall, several students have won lawsuits against schools in the last few years. Maybe this is their only recourse the get back their good name.

To answer your questions, I would need examples. Can you please provide me with a time where a university expelled a student and then it was proven to be a false accusation? They have happened, but they are incredibly rare. Proven is the key word, btw.

And one side note about the "good name" comment you made. University disciplinary procedures are covered by FERPA, a federal privacy act. It would be a gross violation and fireable offense for a university to ever reveal that a student had been accused of sexual assault (or had accused someone of sexual assault). In most cases, no one outside the university ever knows that someone was accused (or found responsible) for sexual assault while at a university. The only way that information comes out is when there is a leak (in which case the leak should be fired and sued) or when the students involved choose to speak publicly about it which has nothing to do with the university. Provided no one breaks the law, the university process does not tarnish anyone's name in the slightest.

[GGGG]

I'm not unhappy.

And yes, I use the tool, not just for discriminatory comments like Jay Bee, but for threads posted in the wrong forum, for duplicate threads that should be merged, and other basic moderation items for which the tool exists.

I use the tool on other forums as well. Because I've never viewed the simple act of reporting a post as criticism. It's just using the tools of the website to help the mods.

Which they have asked us in the past to use BTW.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

To answer your questions, I would need examples. Can you please provide me with a time where a university expelled a student and then it was proven to be a false accusation? They have happened, but they are incredibly rare. Proven is the key word, btw.

And one side note about the "good name" comment you made. University disciplinary procedures are covered by FERPA, a federal privacy act. It would be a gross violation and fireable offense for a university to ever reveal that a student had been accused of sexual assault (or had accused someone of sexual assault). In most cases, no one outside the university ever knows that someone was accused (or found responsible) for sexual assault while at a university. The only way that information comes out is when there is a leak (in which case the leak should be fired and sued) or when the students involved choose to speak publicly about it which has nothing to do with the university. Provided no one breaks the law, the university process does not tarnish anyone's name in the slightest.

Dear "Mass Hysteria", "False Accusations", et al, Crowd,

You may wish to give up this line of inquiry as TAMU is kicking your asses with facts, and it ain't close.