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Author Topic: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted  (Read 31188 times)

brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #150 on: August 25, 2018, 07:10:35 AM »
LOL.  So in 50+ years the population went up by a third...and attendance went up nearly 400%.

D'oh...beat me to it ;D
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2018, 07:11:28 AM »
You're going to keep trying this one no matter how many times you are gently reminded that coaches never pay any penalty. They are free agents every single day. Shaka could sign a 100-year contract tomorrow but if he left for Kentucky the next day, Kentucky would pay whatever penalty.

But if one of Shaka's players wants to transfer to Kentucky for a better opportunity, he is punished to the full extent of "the law."

And you know it, so stop being silly.



It is still an expense that someone had to pay to make the other entity whole.  Dollars were paid. Dollars that could be used to do something else.  Kentucky or any other program doesn’t have their own US printing press to create currency.  I am for Shaka’s players being able to transfer free and clear if Shaka were to leave.  That is a rule that should be put into place. 
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2018, 07:18:08 AM »
LOL.  So in 50+ years the population went up by a third...and attendance went up nearly 400%.

I am not sure why this is an argument.  Again, I said population growth was ONE of the reasons, not the only one.

Put another way, if the Cubs start playing as lousy as we did in the 60’s again, we will NOT be averaging 809K fans again.  Too much population buffer now to prevent that.  You are also using your numbers disingenuously to make that comparison.  The point is there are an extra 3.2 million bodies in 2017 to attract fans to a Cubs game in the metro area then there was in 1960.  That pool size benefits any business when there is a finite number of businesses in that space.  If you want to go to a baseball game and live in Chicago, you have two choices for MLB.  If you want pizza, you have a million choices.  More population size helps your ability to draw, but you still have to be competitive, play in a decent yard that is safe, and other variables to consistently draw.  In my opinion.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2018, 07:37:17 AM »
I guess suburbs and population growth didn’t exist?   ::)

1960 Chicago metro area population 6,794,461

1980 Chicago metro area population 7,869,542

2000 Chicago metro area population 9,098,316

2017 Chicago metro area population 9,900,000 estimated

Is the metro including Racine and Kenosha? Or say the entire south side? Those are probably things that should be subtracted from the population growth
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2018, 07:50:35 AM »
Is the metro including Racine and Kenosha? Or say the entire south side? Those are probably things that should be subtracted from the population growth

It is the area described by the Cubs where there fans typically drive from.  The team draws fans consistently from those areas and rightly so.  The Royals draw fans from Kansas City, KS even though they play in Missouri.  Reds draw from Kentucky, Dodgers from Orange County, Giants from the east bay, Yankees from New Jersey, etc.

Kenosha to Wrigley is what, 55 miles or so?  About what Sheboygan to Miller Park is if I had to guess. 

Population centers have sprawled from the central city areas over the years and teams have appealed to fans as they pop up in within a radius they are willing to drive. 
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GGGG

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2018, 08:08:18 AM »
I am not sure why this is an argument.  Again, I said population growth was ONE of the reasons, not the only one.

Oh bullsh*t.  Some ole Chicos.  Tries to pass off an argument, then when shown it is insignificant, just backpedals. 

The fact is that free agency didn't ruin baseball.  Baseball is more popular now than it was during its heyday based on per game attendance, which has also been insignificantly affected by population growth.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2018, 08:10:57 AM »
It is the area described by the Cubs where there fans typically drive from.  The team draws fans consistently from those areas and rightly so.  The Royals draw fans from Kansas City, KS even though they play in Missouri.  Reds draw from Kentucky, Dodgers from Orange County, Giants from the east bay, Yankees from New Jersey, etc.

Kenosha to Wrigley is what, 55 miles or so?  About what Sheboygan to Miller Park is if I had to guess. 

Population centers have sprawled from the central city areas over the years and teams have appealed to fans as they pop up in within a radius they are willing to drive.

Same distance as Kenosha to Miller Park I'd wager there's more brewers fans in Kenosha than cubs (though they do exist). Same poor logic that ignores the fact that the vast majority of the south side isn't heading to wrigley. Sure there's some cubs fans but including those millions is ridiculous when most are apathetic till the Sox are good again
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bilsu

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2018, 08:57:41 AM »
It is still an expense that someone had to pay to make the other entity whole.  Dollars were paid. Dollars that could be used to do something else.  Kentucky or any other program doesn’t have their own US printing press to create currency. I am for Shaka’s players being able to transfer free and clear if Shaka were to leave.  That is a rule that should be put into place.
However, they should not be able to follow Shaka. How would you like it, if your coach brought in a top 5 class and then got a job at another school, because he could brings his recruits with him? MU gives Wojo a big recruiting budget. Wojo should not be able to run off with the recruits. I can live with the recruits leaving without penalty, but they should not be able to follow their coach.

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2018, 11:25:40 AM »
However, they should not be able to follow Shaka. How would you like it, if your coach brought in a top 5 class and then got a job at another school, because he could brings his recruits with him? MU gives Wojo a big recruiting budget. Wojo should not be able to run off with the recruits. I can live with the recruits leaving without penalty, but they should not be able to follow their coach.

I am for nearly unfettered free agency for athletes -- in other words, I think a scholarship basketball player should have the exact same freedom (with lack of penalty) that a scholarship acting student, scholarship trombone student or a student on an academic scholarship has.

However, this makes sense to me, bilsu, and I could get behind this as a "fetter."

We already have established that coaches are total free agents, despite c2's pathetic and inaccurate claims that buy-out clauses make them something other than total free agents. But a coach shouldn't just be able to steal an entire team from one institution and bring them to another.

And hey, as a sign that I'm willing to compromise even further, I'd probably accept a rule that would prohibit a mid-season transfer to be able to suit up immediately at his new school. I don't think the kid should have to sit out an entire year, but he or she shouldn't be able to leave College A on Dec. 15 and play for College B on Dec. 17.

IMHO, those are reasonable limitations to an athlete's movement.

Making McEwen sit out this season, on the other hand, is unreasonable.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 02:14:14 PM by MU82 »
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2018, 01:32:29 PM »
Oh bullsh*t.  Some ole Chicos.  Tries to pass off an argument, then when shown it is insignificant, just backpedals. 

The fact is that free agency didn't ruin baseball.  Baseball is more popular now than it was during its heyday based on per game attendance, which has also been insignificantly affected by population growth.

Chicos,

Where did I say free agency ruined baseball?  I did not.  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56500.msg1038137#msg1038137

To the contrary, I said for some teams it wasn’t good, but free agency had many positive impacts. 

There are clubs that competed more consistently prior to free agency that struggle now and occasionally do well.  There are others that did little prior to free agency that have done well since. And there are those like the Yankees and Dodgers that had success in both eras.   It hasn’t been universally great for everyone as MU82 said, nor has it ruined baseball as you erroneously stated I said.

There is a built in advantage for bigger market teams, a larger margin for error.  And to imply population hasn’t helped attendance defies common sense.  Business 101 you fish where the fish are.  MLB isn’t moving a franchise to Spokane, or Salt Lake City for a reason.  Instead population GROWTH centers like Las Vegas is where NHL and NFL went.  You cannot ignore demographics, but it is not the only reason for attendance increases over the long haul, but it is one.  Now that MLB has to figure out how to deal with the sliding attendance they have. They should be thankful they are positioned on metro areas that have large population sizes that can sustain these drops and not make them worse.

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Lennys Tap

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #160 on: August 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM »

It was also much harder to get to the WS back in the day because you had to win your league outright.  The Yankees back in the day at the resources to scout and sign players throughout the country, then via the reserve clause, the ability to hold onto those players indefinitely. 

Free agency has leveled out the talent level of teams considerably.  Maybe not when it was first introduced, but mid and small market teams have gotten better at finding talent and incorporating it into their talent pool.  Your excuses are at least 20 years out of date and don't reflect the reality of today's MLB.

Bingo.

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #161 on: August 25, 2018, 02:32:56 PM »
Chicos,

Where did I say free agency ruined baseball?  I did not.  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56500.msg1038137#msg1038137

To the contrary, I said for some teams it wasn’t good, but free agency had many positive impacts. 

There are clubs that competed more consistently prior to free agency that struggle now and occasionally do well.  There are others that did little prior to free agency that have done well since. And there are those like the Yankees and Dodgers that had success in both eras.   It hasn’t been universally great for everyone as MU82 said, nor has it ruined baseball as you erroneously stated I said.

Actually, I said: "Baseball experienced none of the 'horrors' that were predicted," and "Free agency has been a good thing for every sport; more importantly, free agency is a condition every free human being should enjoy in his or her work."

There is a big difference between saying free agency has been good for sports and that it has been "universally great for everyone."

So don't misrepresent what I said, c2.

Meanwhile, on Aug. 22 you said this:

Time to move on.

I guess you changed your mind, given that since then you've had dozens of posts on this subject -- many of them filled with erroneous or misleading information in your desperate attempts to be "right."
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Lennys Tap

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #162 on: August 25, 2018, 02:48:10 PM »
I am for nearly unfettered free agency for athletes -- in other words, I think a scholarship basketball player should have the exact same freedom (with lack of penalty) that a scholarship acting student, scholarship trombone student or a student on an academic scholarship has.


I go back and forth on where I stand on this, Mike, but I do tend to prefer "unfettered". That said, though, I don't think comparing revenue producing scholarship athletes with trombone players is apples to apples. Schools spend much more money recruiting the former, and once they're in school the investment really explodes. Tutors, trainers, weight rooms, training tables, coaches, etc., make on court/field success necessary to pay the bills - and that makes continuity important. With the trombone player, nobody cares because it has zero impact on the bottom line.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #163 on: August 25, 2018, 03:43:43 PM »

Making McEwen sit out this season, on the other hand, is unreasonable.

I fail to see how it is unreasonable.  McEwen is still able to receive a full athletic scholarship.   He does not lose any athletic eligibility.   He just has to wait a year to play in games.

Minimal,  if any, harm is done to the athlete.

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #164 on: August 25, 2018, 03:57:40 PM »
I go back and forth on where I stand on this, Mike, but I do tend to prefer "unfettered". That said, though, I don't think comparing revenue producing scholarship athletes with trombone players is apples to apples. Schools spend much more money recruiting the former, and once they're in school the investment really explodes. Tutors, trainers, weight rooms, training tables, coaches, etc., make on court/field success necessary to pay the bills - and that makes continuity important. With the trombone player, nobody cares because it has zero impact on the bottom line.

I understand, Lenny, but it is the school's choice to spend like this on the athletes. Obviously, we're in so deep now that no school can afford not to do this stuff because it would place it at a competitive disadvantage, but the reason the spending has gotten out of hand is because the schools LET it get out of hand. It sure as heck isn't the athletes' fault that it got out of hand.

I'm a big proponent of freedom.
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #165 on: August 25, 2018, 04:01:21 PM »
I fail to see how it is unreasonable.  McEwen is still able to receive a full athletic scholarship.   He does not lose any athletic eligibility.   He just has to wait a year to play in games.

Minimal,  if any, harm is done to the athlete.

It's unreasonable if McEwen wants to play 4 years of basketball in a 4-year span and then get on with his life. It's unreasonable if McEwen didn't want to spend his 20th birthday year sitting and watching instead of playing.

Frankly, I don't know if that applies to McEwen, but that's not the point. I was just using him as an example. I could have named any athlete who transferred and then was forced to spend a year of college not playing college basketball.

Your opinion is Minimal, if any, harm is done to the athlete, and I respect your opinion, but I wonder how many athletes you believe are "harmed minimally" would choose to sit out a year vs. playing right away if they were given the choice.

I'm for giving them the choice.
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GGGG

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2018, 04:06:10 PM »
Yeah I'm not for "unfettered" transfers either.  I think every player should simply get one transfer per career without spending a year in residence.  That way there are no waivers, no grad transfer exceptions, etc.  And a player can only play for one school per competitive season, so mid-year transfers have to wait until the start of the next season. 

In a nod to bilsu, I am also comfortable with saying that no player can play immediately if he follows a coach from a school where he played.  He must wait a year.  In the case of a signed NLI, the original school must let him out of his commitment.

I don't think this is unreasonable.  I don't think it's Pandora's Box.  It's granting players more freedom without making it unlimited.

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2018, 06:14:27 PM »
Yeah I'm not for "unfettered" transfers either.  I think every player should simply get one transfer per career without spending a year in residence.  That way there are no waivers, no grad transfer exceptions, etc.  And a player can only play for one school per competitive season, so mid-year transfers have to wait until the start of the next season. 

In a nod to bilsu, I am also comfortable with saying that no player can play immediately if he follows a coach from a school where he played.  He must wait a year.  In the case of a signed NLI, the original school must let him out of his commitment.

I don't think this is unreasonable.  I don't think it's Pandora's Box.  It's granting players more freedom without making it unlimited.

Seems a reasonable compromise.

It's 1,000 times better than "Tough crap. Sit out a year, like it or not. Now please excuse me while I troll for better coaching jobs, and I sure won't have to sit out a year."
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2018, 08:43:23 PM »
I understand, Lenny, but it is the school's choice to spend like this on the athletes. Obviously, we're in so deep now that no school can afford not to do this stuff because it would place it at a competitive disadvantage, but the reason the spending has gotten out of hand is because the schools LET it get out of hand. It sure as heck isn't the athletes' fault that it got out of hand.

I'm a big proponent of freedom.

Me too, Mike - my libertarian brother!

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2018, 09:20:57 PM »
It's unreasonable if McEwen wants to play 4 years of basketball in a 4-year span and then get on with his life. It's unreasonable if McEwen didn't want to spend his 20th birthday year sitting and watching instead of playing.

Frankly, I don't know if that applies to McEwen, but that's not the point. I was just using him as an example. I could have named any athlete who transferred and then was forced to spend a year of college not playing college basketball.

Your opinion is Minimal, if any, harm is done to the athlete, and I respect your opinion, but I wonder how many athletes you believe are "harmed minimally" would choose to sit out a year vs. playing right away if they were given the choice.

I'm for giving them the choice.

He does have a choice — he can in fact move on with his life any time he chooses.

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #170 on: August 25, 2018, 11:17:07 PM »
He does have a choice — he can in fact move on with his life any time he chooses.

Well that's true, of course ... but I think you know what I was saying in the context of his college basketball career.
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Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #171 on: August 26, 2018, 06:56:55 AM »
It's unreasonable if McEwen wants to play 4 years of basketball in a 4-year span and then get on with his life. It's unreasonable if McEwen didn't want to spend his 20th birthday year sitting and watching instead of playing.

Frankly, I don't know if that applies to McEwen, but that's not the point. I was just using him as an example. I could have named any athlete who transferred and then was forced to spend a year of college not playing college basketball.

Your opinion is Minimal, if any, harm is done to the athlete, and I respect your opinion, but I wonder how many athletes you believe are "harmed minimally" would choose to sit out a year vs. playing right away if they were given the choice.

I'm for giving them the choice.

Mike-

I respect your opinion.  You're standing up for athletes that have little power.  I typically favor giving the athletes more than less, too.

But I also view an athletic scholarship as a privilege,  not a right.  I am ok with some conditions on that scholarship.  There are rules in the real world.  I do not view the year in residence rule as a huge injustice.  It's inconvenient for athletes but you are not always going to have your ideal scenario in life.

When it comes to reforms that favor the athletes and give them more power,  doing away with the year in residence rule is way down the list for me.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 09:17:05 AM by Lazar's Headband »

GGGG

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #172 on: August 26, 2018, 07:29:46 AM »
He does have a choice — he can in fact move on with his life any time he chooses.


If that's the standard you use, you can justify putting all sorts of additional limits on athletes.  In other words, it's a ridiculous standard.

WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #173 on: August 26, 2018, 08:07:07 AM »
Actually, I said: "Baseball experienced none of the 'horrors' that were predicted," and "Free agency has been a good thing for every sport; more importantly, free agency is a condition every free human being should enjoy in his or her work."

There is a big difference between saying free agency has been good for sports and that it has been "universally great for everyone."

So don't misrepresent what I said, c2.

Meanwhile, on Aug. 22 you said this:

Time to move on.

I guess you changed your mind, given that since then you've had dozens of posts on this subject -- many of them filled with erroneous or misleading information in your desperate attempts to be "right."

Correct that you said it has been good for every sport, but that doesn’t mean good for everyone or every team in that sport.  That was my point, it hasn’t been universally great.  It is setup to benefit teams with big markets and big payrolls on the average, but yes occasionally a smaller market team can strike gold.

Can you please stop with the politics in your signature every week with some new comment.
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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #174 on: August 26, 2018, 08:07:15 AM »

If that's the standard you use, you can justify putting all sorts of additional limits on athletes.  In other words, it's a ridiculous standard.

My point is probably better said by Lazar — using hyperbole gets you hyperbole back. 

 

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