collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Spaniel with a Short Tail
[Today at 04:48:14 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Uncle Rico
[Today at 04:41:04 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by MuMark
[Today at 04:40:13 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by BrewCity83
[Today at 04:40:04 PM]


Where is Marquette? by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 04:38:52 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by THRILLHO
[Today at 04:05:24 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 03:24:51 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted  (Read 31170 times)

NWarsh

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #125 on: August 24, 2018, 09:54:14 AM »
The big market teams with the resources to spend have had it better than the small market teams since free agency.  On an ongoing, year after year review of consistently being good.  The Padres making it once, or the Marlins winning it all doesn’t erase the big market teams securing the talent more often than not.

Attendance is also subject to population growth.  The US population has grown every single year, but despite that this year it is down lowest in 15 years, and in 5 of the previous 6 years attendance has declined.

Not unique to baseball

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23349
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2018, 10:08:42 AM »
Attendance and television viewership is down almost across the board for sports.  For many reasons.  To argue that free agency, which has been around for 40+ years, is the cause of MLB 's lower numbers is absurd.  But somehow comfortable and expected from that source.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2018, 10:08:49 AM »
Not unique to baseball

True, but some leagues have grown attendance.  NBA four straight years as an example.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:13:05 AM by WarriorDad »
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2018, 10:12:04 AM »
Referring to the players who move up to a better school - isn't that a good thing? Meant rhetorically, of course, as I agree totally with your post. Isn't bettering (or at least trying to better) one's lot in life the reason to attend college in the first place?

Yes, but every action has a corresponding reaction.  When coaches leave they have to pay a contractual penalty, if players leave should they have some culpability?  If the players weren’t receiving all these benefits which have tremendous value, I could see leaving whenever, but that isn’t the case.  Middle ground needed
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

NWarsh

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2018, 10:12:20 AM »
Try, but some leagues have grown attendance.  NBA four straight years as an example.

Ok, that is one sport.  I am guessing MLS is another, but the majority of them are seeing declines in attendance.  Good thing that the NBA got rid of free agency before all the other major sports to help the game go back to its glory days.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2018, 10:12:28 AM »
But that raises an important evaluation on this.  If you look at the complete list of players that left as grad transfers to parity schools or higher profile, I think that is a majority of players on the list.  Others are viewing it as those that left for parity or lower profile, which would also be a majority.

Largest group is the group the transfers down. Followed by the group that transfers laterally. Smallest group is the ones that transfer up. You might be right that the smallest group + the middle group is larger than the largest group but really this is all goalpost shifting from your original claim that mid majors are being decimated en masse by grad transfers.

But in the end, the school that recruited him, trained him, fed him, coached him, educated him still loses him. Whether they leave for a parity situation or not, that original school is out.  Commitment broken.


There is no commitment broken. Vast, vast, vast majority of division 1 players are on 1 year scholarships. They made a commitment to play for 1 year. Unless they are transferring midseason these players are choosing to leave after their commitment is up, and midseason transfers are penalized more than any other kind of transfer. Now if you want to make an argument that a player with a multi-year scholarship should be penalized, I would be willing to hear that argument.

You also only focus on how a school is harmed by grad transfers. What about how they are benefited by them? Marquette has certainly benefited from them in the past few years. Mid and low majors also get to replenish their rosters with grad transfers. For every grad transfer that commits to a high major school, there are three that commit to a mid or low major.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23349
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #131 on: August 24, 2018, 10:12:35 AM »
Try, but some leagues have grown attendance.  NBA four straight years as an example.
If it is up in basketball, then the theory that free agency is the cause of baseball's decline is weakened.  Because free agency in the NBA has led to super teams and a lack of competitiveness.  Which is what you argue happens in baseball. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #132 on: August 24, 2018, 10:16:56 AM »
Yes, but every action has a corresponding reaction.  When coaches leave they have to pay a contractual penalty, if players leave should they have some culpability?  If the players weren’t receiving all these benefits which have tremendous value, I could see leaving whenever, but that isn’t the case.  Middle ground needed

Coaches only have to play a penalty if they leave before their contract is up. Vast majority of players leave after their 1 year contract is up. This comparison doesn't work.

Also to be clear,  the coaches aren't punished,  the schools trying to hire them are punished. I have yet to hear of a division 1 coach paying his own buyout.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:38:03 AM by TAMU Eagle »
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #133 on: August 24, 2018, 10:18:28 AM »
Attendance and television viewership is down almost across the board for sports.  For many reasons.  To argue that free agency, which has been around for 40+ years, is the cause of MLB 's lower numbers is absurd.  But somehow comfortable and expected from that source.

NBA is up.  Others down

I’m not saying attendance is down because of free agency, but responding to other person that made claim attendance is strong because of free agency.  Isn’t necessarily the case.  My conversation is about competitive balance.  The big get stronger, the smaller have to be more creative and that historically the last rip years means less consistent winning.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #134 on: August 24, 2018, 10:21:49 AM »


Some fans would disagree with you if you live in a small market and are a fan of a small market team. But your opinion is respected.



In the 47 years prior to free agency the NY Yankees (largest market, richest team) played in 30 world series and won 23 of them.

In the 47 years since free agency became a reality the same NY Yankee franchise has played in 11 world series and won 7.

Fans who don't think free agency has helped the competitive balance are certainly allowed to stubbornly clings to that uninformed opinion but the facts don't back it up.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2018, 10:22:41 AM »
NBA is up.  Others down

I’m not saying attendance is down because of free agency, but responding to other person that made claim attendance is strong because of free agency.  Isn’t necessarily the case.  My conversation is about competitive balance.  The big get stronger, the smaller have to be more creative and that historically the last rip years means less consistent winning.

Just like you weren't saying attendance is down because of free agency, Sultan wasn't saying attendance was up because of free agency. He was just showing that it hadn't ruined baseball as you appear to be claiming.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #136 on: August 24, 2018, 10:23:42 AM »
Largest group is the group the transfers down. Followed by the group that transfers laterally. Smallest group is the ones that transfer up. You might be right that the smallest group + the middle group is larger than the largest group but really this is all goalpost shifting from your original claim that mid majors are being decimated en masse by grad transfers.


There is no commitment broken. Vast, vast, vast majority of division 1 players are on 1 year scholarships. They made a commitment to play for 1 year. Unless they are transferring midseason these players are choosing to leave after their commitment is up, and midseason transfers are penalized more than any other kind of transfer. Now if you want to make an argument that a player with a multi-year scholarship should be penalized, I would be willing to hear that argument.

You also only focus on how a school is harmed by grad transfers. What about how they are benefited by them? Marquette has certainly benefited from them in the past few years. Mid and low majors also get to replenish their rosters with grad transfers. For every grad transfer that commits to a high major school, there are three that commit to a mid or low major.

Some are harmed and some benefit, I agree.  It feels to me that most here are only claiming benefit from player perspective and not the looking at the harm side.  My response has been to look at that side, but you are correct it is both.

I thought all major conferences, the P5 and the Big East and AAC have guaranteed scholarships multiyear since a few years ago.  Is that not the case?
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2018, 10:36:21 AM »
Some are harmed and some benefit, I agree.  It feels to me that most here are only claiming benefit from player perspective and not the looking at the harm side.  My response has been to look at that side, but you are correct it is both.

I thought all major conferences, the P5 and the Big East and AAC have guaranteed scholarships multiyear since a few years ago.  Is that not the case?

Are the power 6 the majority of Division 1? Also wasnt your concern for mid and low majors?
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #138 on: August 24, 2018, 10:53:12 AM »
The big market teams with the resources to spend have had it better than the small market teams since free agency.  On an ongoing, year after year review of consistently being good.  The Padres making it once, or the Marlins winning it all doesn’t erase the big market teams securing the talent more often than not.

Attendance is also subject to population growth.  The US population has grown every single year, but despite that this year it is down lowest in 15 years, and in 5 of the previous 6 years attendance has declined. 


Are you seriously suggesting that population growth is the reason for the increase in per game attendance?

No one is suggesting that MLB is perfectly level.  It isn't.  But to say it is at the detriment of baseball is a statement that shows an ignorance of history.

WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #139 on: August 24, 2018, 10:57:19 AM »
Are the power 6 the majority of Division 1? Also wasnt your concern for mid and low majors?

No they are not the majority, and my concern is for all including mid and low majors.  I gave the example of Dwade leaving or being wooed while at MU, he played for a school that is not mid or low major.

And though they are not the majority of all schools, they do makeup probably 90% or more of the players that are supposedly somehow exploited to hear some describe the situation when it comes to paying players.

Based on your comments earlier, are you supportive then of players at P5 schools or any school that provides guaranteed scholarships a payback to the school if they leave since a coach has to do that?  Why should the school be on the hook for all expenses, especially in developing these kids and not be made partially whole in some fashion?   We will leave the schools that don’t guarantee scholarships to the side for the moment.


“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #140 on: August 24, 2018, 11:17:03 AM »
No they are not the majority, and my concern is for all including mid and low majors.  I gave the example of Dwade leaving or being wooed while at MU, he played for a school that is not mid or low major.

And though they are not the majority of all schools, they do makeup probably 90% or more of the players that are supposedly somehow exploited to hear some describe the situation when it comes to paying players.

Based on your comments earlier, are you supportive then of players at P5 schools or any school that provides guaranteed scholarships a payback to the school if they leave since a coach has to do that?  Why should the school be on the hook for all expenses, especially in developing these kids and not be made partially whole in some fashion?   We will leave the schools that don’t guarantee scholarships to the side for the moment.

Id be willing to hear an argument that they should have a plenty such as having to sit out a year. But pay the school money?  Are you kidding me? The school provided a year of services and got a year of basketball in return they are square.

Again,  coaches don't have to payback schools when they leave early.  The new school pays a buyout that is built into a contract signed by the coach. It's not payback for years of development it's honoring a contract. If a school wants to put a buyout into scholarship agreements they are welcome to. I think they would lose a lot of recruits that way.

The paying players conversation is completely separate. I'm against paying players though I support them being able to profit from their likeness.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #141 on: August 24, 2018, 12:04:40 PM »
But in the end, the school that recruited him, trained him, fed him, coached him, educated him still loses him.  Whether they leave for a parity situation or not, that original school is out.  Commitment broken.

From a grad transfer perspective, this is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, the school did those things, but the player also played for them, helped market their program, kept up the APR, and earned a degree. Commitment fulfilled. What they choose to do after earning that degree having fulfilled their commitment is up to them. If they decide to go to another school, it will be because that school recruited him and then trained, fed, coached, and educated him while he fulfilled that new commitment.

But even from a regular transfer perspective, if the player is meeting all the requirements of the program while they are there, they are fulfilling their obligation. If they do that for two years and choose to leave, that is their decision. Further, if they left because for whatever reason they aren't happy, whether it's because of living situation, playing time, relationship with the staff, aren't those things the school should've planned for? If you don't want your players to become disgruntled and leave, don't do things that make them disgruntled and leave.

Sure, there are occasionally things beyond the school's control, but if players leave for more playing time, maybe you should've played them more. If they left because they don't get along with the staff, maybe the staff should've been more accommodating. If the player left to play on a bigger stage, maybe the school should've won more to gain greater attention. The street goes both ways and as long as the player fulfilled their obligations while there, no commitment is broken.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2018, 02:40:40 PM »
Yes, but every action has a corresponding reaction.  When coaches leave they have to pay a contractual penalty, if players leave should they have some culpability?

You're going to keep trying this one no matter how many times you are gently reminded that coaches never pay any penalty. They are free agents every single day. Shaka could sign a 100-year contract tomorrow but if he left for Kentucky the next day, Kentucky would pay whatever penalty.

But if one of Shaka's players wants to transfer to Kentucky for a better opportunity, he is punished to the full extent of "the law."

And you know it, so stop being silly.


I’m not saying attendance is down because of free agency, but responding to other person that made claim attendance is strong because of free agency.  Isn’t necessarily the case. 

Hilarious, c2. You made a ridiculous argument (as usual), were called on it by more honest Scoopers (as usual), and now you are trying to pretend you weren't trying to get away with your silliness (as usual).

In the 47 years prior to free agency the NY Yankees (largest market, richest team) played in 30 world series and won 23 of them.

In the 47 years since free agency became a reality the same NY Yankee franchise has played in 11 world series and won 7.

Fans who don't think free agency has helped the competitive balance are certainly allowed to stubbornly clings to that uninformed opinion but the facts don't back it up.

Yep, yep.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #143 on: August 24, 2018, 10:21:39 PM »

Are you seriously suggesting that population growth is the reason for the increase in per game attendance?

No one is suggesting that MLB is perfectly level.  It isn't.  But to say it is at the detriment of baseball is a statement that shows an ignorance of history.

Are you seriously suggesting population growth isn’t part of it?  Not all of it by any measure, but definitely part of it.  When we added stores in expansion it was where population was growing.  Door swings tied to population centers.  When sports leagues expand, this is typically what they do.  Look at the Dodgers attendance in the 60’s and early 70’s, but as their population grew more fans to draw from.  The Rangers in the 60’s and 70’s struggled to get 1 million fans, but their population exploded in the metroplex and now they routinely hit north of 2.5 mil and sometimes 3 million even despite the heat.  Angels the same, a number of other teams.

It is not the only reason, but yes population matters to a degree.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2018, 11:28:29 PM »
In 1960, Chicago had a population of 3.5 million; the Cubs' home attendance was 809,770.

In 1980, Chicago had a population of 3 million; the Cubs drew 1,206,776 fans to home games.

In 2000, Chicago had a population of 2.9 million; the Cubs drew 2,789,511.

In 2017, Chicago had a population of 2.7 million; the Cubs drew 3,199,562.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #145 on: August 25, 2018, 06:55:27 AM »
In 1960, Chicago had a population of 3.5 million; the Cubs' home attendance was 809,770.

In 1980, Chicago had a population of 3 million; the Cubs drew 1,206,776 fans to home games.

In 2000, Chicago had a population of 2.9 million; the Cubs drew 2,789,511.

In 2017, Chicago had a population of 2.7 million; the Cubs drew 3,199,562.


Yep.  The amount of times Chicos can get owned in one topic is astounding.

WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #146 on: August 25, 2018, 06:58:02 AM »
In the 47 years prior to free agency the NY Yankees (largest market, richest team) played in 30 world series and won 23 of them.

In the 47 years since free agency became a reality the same NY Yankee franchise has played in 11 world series and won 7.

Fans who don't think free agency has helped the competitive balance are certainly allowed to stubbornly clings to that uninformed opinion but the facts don't back it up.

More than half of the Yankees World Titles happened when there were only 8 teams in the American League, making it statically easier to get to the championship than it is now.    As I have said free agency has been great for some teams, especially bigger markets, or well financed ones.  It has also hurt teams that did well before free agency and now have difficult time competing consistently.

“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2018, 07:05:39 AM »
More than half of the Yankees World Titles happened when there were only 8 teams in the American League, making it statically easier to get to the championship than it is now.    As I have said free agency has been great for some teams, especially bigger markets, or well financed ones.  It has also hurt teams that did well before free agency and now have difficult time competing consistently.




It was also much harder to get to the WS back in the day because you had to win your league outright.  The Yankees back in the day at the resources to scout and sign players throughout the country, then via the reserve clause, the ability to hold onto those players indefinitely. 

Free agency has leveled out the talent level of teams considerably.  Maybe not when it was first introduced, but mid and small market teams have gotten better at finding talent and incorporating it into their talent pool.  Your excuses are at least 20 years out of date and don't reflect the reality of today's MLB.

WarriorDad

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2018, 07:06:31 AM »
In 1960, Chicago had a population of 3.5 million; the Cubs' home attendance was 809,770.

In 1980, Chicago had a population of 3 million; the Cubs drew 1,206,776 fans to home games.

In 2000, Chicago had a population of 2.9 million; the Cubs drew 2,789,511.

In 2017, Chicago had a population of 2.7 million; the Cubs drew 3,199,562.

I guess suburbs and population growth didn’t exist?   ::)

1960 Chicago metro area population 6,794,461

1980 Chicago metro area population 7,869,542

2000 Chicago metro area population 9,098,316

2017 Chicago metro area population 9,900,000 estimated


“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2018, 07:09:12 AM »
LOL.  So in 50+ years the population went up by a third...and attendance went up nearly 400%.