Yep, I'm starting another generational thread

[WarriorDad]

How about the fact that that 60 year probably did actually work at 1 or 2 post-graduation jobs his entire career and was continuously rewarded with bonuses, raises, promotions, etc because of his loyalty and perseverance. Yet, his generation also created a job environment where millennials are only making significant gains in salary/compensation by jumping companies routinely. Sticking at one company is no longer in one's best interest and the older generation made it so. They want to admonish those who lack "loyalty", but will cut an employee at the drop of a hat if they can lower their costs and make the company more money. Or, my favorite, asking an employee to take on more responsibility/requirements without any increase in compensation or benefits "for the good of the organization" or because "we're like a family."

As a member of that aging group you guys I don't believe are properly putting everything in context.  You have some parts right, but you are coming at it from a POV of not having lived 60+ years, so it is a somewhat biased view.

1) Yes, there is some luck involved in all things in life and baby boomers (which I am one, born between '46 and '64) avoided some of the attrocities our parents had to go through, depending on when you were born in that 18 year period.  Some went to Vietnam, many of us were too young or right on the cusp.

2) The cost of society has changed.  A millenial from day one has been in a system with health care, family leave, longer vacations, etc.  When my kids were born I was allowed to take that day off and back in the office the next day.  It is wonderful what people receive today, but it comes at a cost, too. Those costs often burdened by companies that didn't have that burden years ago, not to the degree they do now.  As a result you can either try to grow your way into paying for it, or cost cutting, or both. 

3) Technology has cometh and will taketh.  For the other old farts here, they can give a hell yeah.   We used slide rules, it was a luxury to have a 10 key calculator and a PC, are you kidding me? They didn't exist.  Pre spreadsheet days.  What a nightmare.  Impossible to sort, checking every calculation multiple times, footing everything.  The amount of productivity improved by the spreadsheet alone is impossible to comprehend in resources and speed. That means some sectors don't need to quantity of folks like they used to.

4) Health and population growth. People are living longer than their parents, and as a result they need to work longer.  That means fewer opportunities for advancement from younger workers.  My children are in the same boat.  Only one left in college, but they will have to battle it out for many years in some industries unless they choose to work for themselves.

5) Two people in the workforce.  This one pains me because I'm conflicted.  I'm 100% for women's rights and the ability to do anything and everything, but to ignore what the ramifications are to society is foolhardy.  More people working has helped to accelerate the cost of living because families have more money.  Look at the costs of housing, cars, and other big family items before and after the gender revolution into the workplace.  It has made it almost impossible for a family to have one parent stay home to survive economically.  For those that want to have a parent stay home, that choice is out of reach for most which is a shame but it is a result of purchase power built from two person working families.

6)  Truth be told, back in my day we had gloom and doom scenarios, too.  People saying they were screwed or had little opportunities.  We didn't have any of the technology growth that is exploding today at a daily rate.  Our job prospects were limited to a large degree. 

Time to put one's head down, work hard, take risks, get noticed and maybe even do it yourself.  Not everyone is going to be rich, but there are enormous opportunities out there.

[WarriorDad]

Please stop! I'm a boomer. First in my family to graduate college which my parents paid. I paid for my daughters college education and took out a 100K 529 for my grand daughter. My grand parents paid for my parents home which they repaid to my grandparents. My parents did the same for me and we did the same for my daughter. Our family through the generations of hard work and savings never had to go to a bank for a loan as we passed it forward. The secret instilled to us by my grandfather was always live below your means of income.

Amen brother warrior.  What MUEng and others fail to recognize here is that we have given and given and given throughout.  Three kids put through college at enormous expense. Cars for them, helping with down payments.  I got none of that stuff.  Sometimes I feel people just want us to die sooner so they can get their hands on the money, but they don't factor in the cost of our healthcare is many times more expensive or the reality that we are going to live much longer than previous generations.  So our generosity is there, but we also have to pay for us to stay around.  Sadly, I'm guessing some hope we stop doing that sooner rather than later.

[MU82]

Despite having gone through some adversity (as most have), I fully admit to being lucky. If I ever write my autobiography, "Lucky" will be somewhere in the title. I was lucky to get the job I did out of college, lucky to have things (mostly) fall in place in my career, lucky to marry who I did, lucky to have the kids we had, lucky to be born white and middle-class, lucky to never really want for anything (even if I rarely had "luxuries"). I like to think I've given back, but I probably could do more.

I sometimes am frustrated by the actions of my fellow boomers, but quite often very proud. I sometimes am frustrated by the actions of Millennials, but I see a lot of amazing accomplishments by them, too.

I'm just not going to get into the blame game. There is plenty of blame to go around ... and plenty of credit that needs to be handed out, too.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Over half expect to be millionaires. Listen, this is the most educated generation in the history of the earth. The Greatest Generation brought in the Industrial Age 2.  The Boomers brought in the Information Age.  The Millennials are bringing the Age of Artificial Intelligence.  All three had a rough start.  All three will significantly change the world for the better.


https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5835419/amp/More-half-Millennials-expect-millionaires-someday-according-new-study.html

[mu03eng]

Amen brother warrior.  What MUEng and others fail to recognize here is that we have given and given and given throughout.  Three kids put through college at enormous expense. Cars for them, helping with down payments.  I got none of that stuff.  Sometimes I feel people just want us to die sooner so they can get their hands on the money, but they don't factor in the cost of our healthcare is many times more expensive or the reality that we are going to live much longer than previous generations.  So our generosity is there, but we also have to pay for us to stay around.  Sadly, I'm guessing some hope we stop doing that sooner rather than later.

Listen, my parents are boomers and yes they absolutely sacrificed (both served voluntarily in the military at a time when it was extremely unpopular to do so) and given to others and to their kids. There is no doubting that there are plenty of stories of boomers as individuals and as groups being selfless. However, as a collective generation the choices the boomers made socially, politically, and economically has created a selfish concentration of power and wealth while pushing down to future generations a butcher's bill that's gonna come due sooner or later. And this is another application of Hanlon's Razor, I don't think the boomer generation is evil or was Machiavellian when I call them selfish, simply that as a group their most important choices were to benefit themselves to the exclusion of other generations.

[mu03eng]

Despite having gone through some adversity (as most have), I fully admit to being lucky. If I ever write my autobiography, "Lucky" will be somewhere in the title. I was lucky to get the job I did out of college, lucky to have things (mostly) fall in place in my career, lucky to marry who I did, lucky to have the kids we had, lucky to be born white and middle-class, lucky to never really want for anything (even if I rarely had "luxuries"). I like to think I've given back, but I probably could do more.

I sometimes am frustrated by the actions of my fellow boomers, but quite often very proud. I sometimes am frustrated by the actions of Millennials, but I see a lot of amazing accomplishments by them, too.

I'm just not going to get into the blame game. There is plenty of blame to go around ... and plenty of credit that needs to be handed out, too.

It's an interesting discussion point to be sure. I absolutely get what you are saying but I don't know how much I view stuff as luck and how much I view it as taking advantage of the things you have. Take your job out of college, were you lucky or did you position yourself through education, experience, and other skills to be able make that job happen for yourself? I got a great job out of college(that I had to quit and then got another great one), I suppose it could be lucky but I also know I worked damn hard and put together all the things I needed to earn that job. For me (this isn't a value judgement just trying to explain my world view) I view the idea that people are lucky to be this idea that somehow things are out of your control or you didn't earn that. It feels like a different side of the "it's in God's hands" coin. There are absolutely things outside of our control but c'est la vie. I mean, I'm lucky that my dad came back from some stuff that some of the folks he flew with didn't, but by the same token other people didn't have to experience as a kid the knowledge that when their dad walked out the door in his flight suit he might not walk back in the door. It's this idea that life is outside of "my control" that I just don't want to accept because it feels easy to me to simply say oh well wasn't lucky enough to get that. I don't owe it to people to help out the less fortunate because I'm lucky....I owe it to them because that's part of making a better society and it's fulfilling.

At the end of the day with this generalization stuff, I don't want it to come off as blame at all. I think it's important to try to understand perspectives and past experiences, otherwise time is a flat circle.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Having said all that, try to get a current politician (mostly democrats) to fix this crisis and restructure SS so it is vialble for your generation as well as my grand daughters you so rightly say is next to naught.

Yes, since Democrats currently occupy the White House, control both branches of Congress, and have a majority of the Supreme Court I don't understand why they don't get this fixed!

[mu03eng]

Can we just not go the left/right political route in this thread that gets it canned?

Regardless of party, there is no will to actually fix SS for future generations because it would require current sacrifice and that's not on the table.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Really interesting stuff mu03, thanks for posting.  Within the article there is a link to a HuffPo article that was well worth the time to read.

I agree with your summary, Millennials should be started to flex their generational muscle, but they aren't.  What struck me in both articles was a sense of helplessness.  While I don't disagree that Gen Y has been screwed economically, they should be fighting to make changes, but in general they are not.

I contrast this with my own Gen Z/iGen kids.  Now, maybe they are simply ignorant of the economic train coming down tracks at them, but they operate very differently.  They are of the same general age as the Parkland kids, and like them when they encounter a problem they don't spend any time figuring out all the reasons something can't be done or won't work, they just pragmatically charge in together and start working on how it can be done. Employers can't wait for this generation to hit the workforce.

The HuffPo article does a nice job documenting the reasons things got they way they are, and at the end talks about various solutions.  But they aren't going to happen until Millennials actually wrest control away from Boomers by voting.  Once again the article explains the barriers intentionally put in the way to prevent them from voting, but I again get this sense of helplessness (excuses?) instead of energy around actually making it happen.

And lastly, these are two articles that mention Gen Y, Gen Z, Boomer, and even The Greatest Generation.   As always, us Gen Xers are completely ignored!

My kids are Gen Z and I see it.  They are all connected on Instagram or text groups and if something goes on they all know, they're all connected and they fix in unison.

As Gen X, I always felt we were squeezed by the Boomers above us and the Millennials below us.  We try to pull the Millennials up at the same time we're trying to change the Boomers and/or keep them from going off the rails.  And both generations seem to outnumber us on top of it.

Both comments are generalizations too.

[mu03eng]

My kids are Gen Z and I see it.  They are all connected on Instagram or text groups and if something goes on they all know, they're all connected and they fix in unison.

As Gen X, I always felt we were squeezed by the Boomers above us and the Millennials below us.  We try to pull the Millennials up at the same time we're trying to change the Boomers and/or keep them from going off the rails.  And both generations seem to outnumber us on top of it.

Both comments are generalizations too.

I absolutely see that as well.

[NWarsh]

https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/03/baby-boomers-were-job-hopping-before-it-was-cool/389207/

Yeah, about the notion that millennials are excessive job-hoppers/not loyal. Boomers started the job hopping trend, it was just so long ago that they might have forgot?  They are getting up there in age after all 

By age 34 the average boomer had 10.9 different jobs.  Not much difference to millennials today (and my experience).  The difference is the economies for both.  As somebody stated earlier, the only way to get decent increases over the last 10 years has been to switch companies.  Back in the late boomer eras hourly increases went up an average of 6.2% per year, and those with bachelors degrees increased by 9.4% annually for those between 18-24.  Millennials lived through the worst economic situation in our country since the great depression and the average wealth of boomers vs millennials showed that as boomers, on average, were 7% higher.  With those average annual increases boomers did not have to jump companies to get ahead financially, unfortunately millennials do not have that luxury.

Now, new chicos mentioned the costs of companies and all the extra fringe benefits that are not being offered.  Those are great, and definitely an added benefit that boomers did not have.  He is also right that they do come with costs, but organizations have been forced to offer those now because they fostered an environment where millennials had no reason to be loyal to one company.  The elimination of pension benefits, the stagnate salaries, general slashing/trimming of other benefits like vacation and sick leave (lower level jobs typically).  The boomers leading their organizations during those times had one thing on mind, slashing costs to increase profit margins for short term stock bumps.  I know it is the CEO's job to create value for their shareholders, but those tactics were all short sighted.  I would argue that they did not see the long term impact of the true cost of employee turnover and the culture it has created among the largest working population in the US today.  So yes, the do offer those benefits, but that is only because the true cost of turnover is greater than the cost of those extra benefits they dole out now.  The second that stops you will see those benefits disappear.

This is not meant to bash boomers, it is really just a long winded way of saying it does not matter what generation you are part of.  By and large they all act the same in their 20's, then when they get older they complain that the younger generation are lazy, or hippies, or not loyal, etc.  Every generation wants to try and make the most money for themselves (people in general are selfish and the only true motivation for the majority is what benefits them) and when they have a family will sacrifice those earnings for the best interest of their family.  The only difference is how they get there based on their current economic environment.

[Benny B]

I guess the Boomers got lucky with all the dysfunction that came with their parents having to survive the great depression AND WWII that imprinted on them in all sorts of negative ways.

If you're gonna blame boomers for anything(and they should be blamed) its not for lucking into the middle class, it's for their complete selfishness that failed to pass that forward to future generations.

Exec Summary: Boomers were lucky as hell, but that's not why they f#&ked everything up.

[Benny B]

Can we just not go the left/right political route in this thread that gets it canned?

Regardless of party, there is no will to actually fix SS for future generations because it would require current sacrifice and that's not on the table.

That's why the U.S. needs compulsory voting more than ever.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

With the near death of traditional Defined Benefit retirement plans, there is very little to incent a person to stay with a company, particularly if you are fortunate enough to have a Defined Contribution plan and have already vested any matching company contribution.

In my job I deal a lot with compensation structures at my clients, and the fact is it is often the right financial calculation to change employers.  Newcomers are frequently given higher starting total comp packages than incumbents in the job, as companies fight for talent.  So I don't frown on people that change jobs at all when it is the right thing for their financial security.

However, while it might be the right thing financially, there is a significant risk that the job changer is going into a culture and/or role that doesn't suit them, which is often very difficult to discern until you've already made the move.

[mu03eng]

With the near death of traditional Defined Benefit retirement plans, there is very little to incent a person to stay with a company, particularly if you are fortunate enough to have a Defined Contribution plan and have already vested any matching company contribution.

In my job I deal a lot with compensation structures at my clients, and the fact is it is often the right financial calculation to change employers.  Newcomers are frequently given higher starting total comp packages than incumbents in the job, as companies fight for talent.  So I don't frown on people that change jobs at all when it is the right thing for their financial security.

However, while it might be the right thing financially, there is a significant risk that the job changer is going into a culture and/or role that doesn't suit them, which is often very difficult to discern until you've already made the move.

Very much this.

I get the angst over extreme job hopping...lets call it 3 different companies over 5 year....but is changing a job every 2-3 years whether it's a move up within a company or a lateral move within a company a bad thing? If not if you do the same thing but from one company to another, is it really a bad thing?

Well know underground fact at my company is if you want a good shot at making a director level position or above you've got to leave and then come back.

[mu03eng]

That's why the U.S. needs compulsory voting more than ever.

Still not with you on that mountain top. Not sure how making everyone vote fixes the fact that people don't look past their own problems to try and solve society problems collectively.

[JWags85]

Very much this.

I get the angst over extreme job hopping...lets call it 3 different companies over 5 year....but is changing a job every 2-3 years whether it's a move up within a company or a lateral move within a company a bad thing? If not if you do the same thing but from one company to another, is it really a bad thing?

Well know underground fact at my company is if you want a good shot at making a director level position or above you've got to leave and then come back.

Yep, the aforementioned agency that I worked at, lets say you started at entry level (L1) and if you progressed, you made it to Assistant Director (L4).  I knew L3s who made more than L4s, some by a decent percent margin cause the L4s started at the agency and took their promotions and raises bit by it.  Others left and came back, or moved to my agency after starting at other agencies and got much more ahead financially.  In an environment like that, to hell with antiquated viewpoints on loyalty and how long you should stay at a company before moving on.  That was a landscape that clearly rewarded ambition and looking outside of your daily work bubble, both in magnitude of earnings increase as well as time to progress upwards.

[MU82]

It's an interesting discussion point to be sure. I absolutely get what you are saying but I don't know how much I view stuff as luck and how much I view it as taking advantage of the things you have. Take your job out of college, were you lucky or did you position yourself through education, experience, and other skills to be able make that job happen for yourself? I got a great job out of college(that I had to quit and then got another great one), I suppose it could be lucky but I also know I worked damn hard and put together all the things I needed to earn that job. For me (this isn't a value judgement just trying to explain my world view) I view the idea that people are lucky to be this idea that somehow things are out of your control or you didn't earn that. It feels like a different side of the "it's in God's hands" coin. There are absolutely things outside of our control but c'est la vie. I mean, I'm lucky that my dad came back from some stuff that some of the folks he flew with didn't, but by the same token other people didn't have to experience as a kid the knowledge that when their dad walked out the door in his flight suit he might not walk back in the door. It's this idea that life is outside of "my control" that I just don't want to accept because it feels easy to me to simply say oh well wasn't lucky enough to get that. I don't owe it to people to help out the less fortunate because I'm lucky....I owe it to them because that's part of making a better society and it's fulfilling.

At the end of the day with this generalization stuff, I don't want it to come off as blame at all. I think it's important to try to understand perspectives and past experiences, otherwise time is a flat circle.

Someday you and I will have a beer and I'll tell you my lucky story. Not ashamed of it at all!

Did I take advantage of some of that luck through hard work and/or skill and/or being willing to have sex with beautiful women ... well sure, but ...

[WarriorDad]

Listen, my parents are boomers and yes they absolutely sacrificed (both served voluntarily in the military at a time when it was extremely unpopular to do so) and given to others and to their kids. There is no doubting that there are plenty of stories of boomers as individuals and as groups being selfless. However, as a collective generation the choices the boomers made socially, politically, and economically has created a selfish concentration of power and wealth while pushing down to future generations a butcher's bill that's gonna come due sooner or later. And this is another application of Hanlon's Razor, I don't think the boomer generation is evil or was Machiavellian when I call them selfish, simply that as a group their most important choices were to benefit themselves to the exclusion of other generations.

Is it selfish to want to take care of yourself, invest your money for a nest egg and insurance down the road?  Or even to listen to your banker / broker on how to handle money?  What exactly are the selfish decisions as a whole that we made?  Many of my boomers were hippies, most normal people trying to live the American dream. 

Are we not pushing the butcher's bill the last 10 years, too?  Well beyond the boomers role, but decisions made by non-boomers?  Exploding debts, deficits, projects that make you wonder what construction company is lining their pockets with which lawmaker? 

This is why I said you are coming from it from a place of youth, not experience.  Go back to media at the turn of the century, the same themes.  The 30's, the same themes. The 50's, the same themes. 

[WarriorDad]

Yes, since Democrats currently occupy the White House, control both branches of Congress, and have a majority of the Supreme Court I don't understand why they don't get this fixed!

We had that setup from 2009 to 2011 Tsmith, and when you look back on it we failed in a lot of areas.  Immigration, gun control, etc.  We had much larger majorities than exist today for the other side.

[WarriorDad]

That's why the U.S. needs compulsory voting more than ever.

How completely unAmerican.  Tee up George Carlin

[WarriorDad]

With the near death of traditional Defined Benefit retirement plans, there is very little to incent a person to stay with a company, particularly if you are fortunate enough to have a Defined Contribution plan and have already vested any matching company contribution.

In my job I deal a lot with compensation structures at my clients, and the fact is it is often the right financial calculation to change employers.  Newcomers are frequently given higher starting total comp packages than incumbents in the job, as companies fight for talent.  So I don't frown on people that change jobs at all when it is the right thing for their financial security.

However, while it might be the right thing financially, there is a significant risk that the job changer is going into a culture and/or role that doesn't suit them, which is often very difficult to discern until you've already made the move.

Excellent response. Agree with everything here.

[WarriorDad]

Memory lane, quotes about those wretched youth going back the last couple hundred years. 


http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything

[Benny B]

Still not with you on that mountain top. Not sure how making everyone vote fixes the fact that people don't look past their own problems to try and solve society problems collectively.

Because the people who truly care about other people’s problems and want society to improve for the greater good are the vast majority of those who don’t vote.

On the flip side, the vast majority of those who do vote (i.e. those voting D or R) have been polarized such that the only problems they have been conditioned to care about are their own. 

[Benny B]

How completely unAmerican.  Tee up George Carlin

George Carlin was a great American whose mantra could be summed up in two words: “f#@k everyone.”   In other words, Carlin was an equal opportunity offender, who by definition, wanted to fix society for everyone.

That makes him more genuinely American than the current voters in this country whose mantra is apparently, “f#@k the half of you.”

Ask yourself this... when’s the last time one of our elected politicians did something for everyone and it made front page news?  That’s what happens when voting is optional... politicians legislate for optics, not for benefit.