MU Royalty

[dgies9156]

Truthfully, I cannot agree with any argument on keeping Chones number from being retired.

First off, if the elders of Marquette's basketball program elect to retire Mr. Chones' number, I'd be very pleased. He was that good and when you think about, "what ifs..." clearly his situation comes to mind immediately, if not sooner. I was really upset at the time he left, but that was long before I understood what Coach McGuire told him and what the level of poverty was in his immediate family.

But as important as he was, he did not change the direction of the program. George, Butch and Bo did. Maurice, Dean and certainly Al did. And, I agree with the notion that Dwyane Wade was the greatest Warrior ever. We need to have a special place of honor for Mr. Chones but statistically, there is a limit to the number of uniform numbers we can retire. What does bother me is that there is no mention of Mr. Chones in our ring of honor, something that should be rectified in the new Silk Road Arena.

 

[Goose]

dgies

I disagree that Chones did not change the direction of the program. He was a major factor in the transition MU made from being a very good program (late 60's) to true national prominence. In addition, his departure truly represented the Al era perfectly. Not only did few guys go pro early, he was a first of the three to make the jump. IMO, aside from a great era of basketball, what MU was as a program, was cutting edge and he was part of that. Guys going pro, crazy uniforms, coach/player fights, games at midnight and the list goes on. I am not so sure some of that happens without Chones being part of the program.

In reflecting back, I really believe the day Chones was left was the day the program became truly big time. His departure was insane, and it was encouraged by his coach. The other thread about "what if's" was a great thread. IMO, Al leaving is the biggest and Chones leaving is #2. That changed the direction of the program in many ways.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Can one of the old timers help me out with this? I am too young to have seen Chones play, even professionally. Many here seem to put him and Wade in a category of player all their own, and his college numbers certainly support that.

My question is, if Chones is on the same level as Wade, why is his professional career not as decorated? I look at Wade and I see over a dozen all star appearances, 3 national championships, a finals MVP, a scoring champion, and whole bunch of All NBA team appearances. Chones was All Rookie for the ABA, and was eventually a national champion, but on that team he was the 4th or 5th best player (no shame in that when two of the players ahead of you are Magic and Kareem). Wade is a surefire HOFer and Chones will never make it.

Was there injuries? Was he just one of those guys that didn't translate as well to the professional game? Is it because he started in the ABA? Or am I totally off base and his career was just as impressive as Wade's but I'm not understanding the times?

Please understand, I'm not trying disparage Chones in any way. I'm just trying to understand how a guy considered near equal to Wade in college isn't joining Wade in the NBA's pantheon.

[Goose]

TAMU

Wade is in a class of one, IMO...especially as a pro player. My comments on all MU players only is in regards to their college days. Truth be told, many of the all time Warrior greats had uneventful professional careers. Chones and Lucas had the best runs from that era. Bo and Butch were high, high level college players that had unproductive pro careers. IMO, that does not diminish what they were as college players.

[GGGG]

TAMU

Wade is in a class of one, IMO...especially as a pro player. My comments on all MU players only is in regards to their college days. Truth be told, many of the all time Warrior greats had uneventful professional careers. Chones and Lucas had the best runs from that era. Bo and Butch were high, high level college players that had unproductive pro careers. IMO, that does not diminish what they were as college players.

And Marquette isn't unusual in that regard.  Many of the top college players from high level programs had underwhelming pro careers. 

[dgies9156]

Can one of the old timers help me out with this? I am too young to have seen Chones play, even professionally. Many here seem to put him and Wade in a category of player all their own, and his college numbers certainly support that.

My question is, if Chones is on the same level as Wade, why is his professional career not as decorated? I look at Wade and I see over a dozen all star appearances, 3 national championships, a finals MVP, a scoring champion, and whole bunch of All NBA team appearances. Chones was All Rookie for the ABA, and was eventually a national champion, but on that team he was the 4th or 5th best player (no shame in that when two of the players ahead of you are Magic and Kareem). Wade is a surefire HOFer and Chones will never make it.

Was there injuries? Was he just one of those guys that didn't translate as well to the professional game? Is it because he started in the ABA? Or am I totally off base and his career was just as impressive as Wade's but I'm not understanding the times?

Please understand, I'm not trying disparage Chones in any way. I'm just trying to understand how a guy considered near equal to Wade in college isn't joining Wade in the NBA's pantheon.

Brother TAMU, Jim Chones was a wonderful college who dominated at a time when there were not a whole lot of dominating big men. Artis Gilmore, Bill Walton, even Kareem Abdul-Jabbar were kinda sorta his contemporaries. When he became pro, he was very good and lasted for I think a dozen years. But keep in mind, whereas Mr. Chones might have played against maybe a half dozen good centers in his time at Marquette, he played a really tough position in the pros where he faced the Bill Russells, Wilt Chamberlains, Nate Thurmans and Artis Gilmores almost every night.

Brother Goose, I keep thinking one thing and that's Marquette was going to win with Mr. Chones or without him. It took us probably five extra years to win our first NatChamp because he and Larry McNeill went pro. I enjoy the back and forth on this highly theoretical debate and I know we were undefeated in 1972 until Mr. Chones left. But heck we had great teams even without him. That 1972 team still had Larry McNeill, Maurice Lucas and "Lackey!" Greta bunch of guys and incredible ballplayers.

[Lennys Tap]

That 1972 team still had Larry McNeill, Maurice Lucas and "Lackey!" Greta bunch of guys and incredible ballplayers.

Maurice Lucas was a freshman and therefore ineligible for varsity basketball in 1972. Lackey and McNeill were good players but Chones was that team's best - by far. Air went out of the balloon - we were 22-0 when he left. We proceeded to lose 2 regular season games and get blown out early in the NCAA.

[dgies9156]

Maurice Lucas was a freshman and therefore ineligible for varsity basketball in 1972. Lackey and McNeill were good players but Chones was that team's best - by far. Air went out of the balloon - we were 22-0 when he left. We proceeded to lose 2 regular season games and get blown out early in the NCAA.

Oops on the Lucas point. I think it was the following year freshmen teams were eliminated. My bad.

Yeah, I'll never forget that 70-49 debacle at Detroit the Saturday after Mr. Chones left the team. I saw the Chones-less team that year at the University of Tennessee when it played Miami of Ohio and was cautiously optimistic.

After Mr. Chones left, the deck was stacked against us. Bob Lackey came under suspicion by the NCAA for allegedly signing a contract that would have prevented him from playing in an NCAA game. Al was at his best in defending "Lackey" in that one. I think Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp was doing all he could to throw us off balance and to keeping the oncoming tide of African American players in college basketball at bay. Rupp really was bad news and as a youngster growing up in Nashville, I took great delight in watching every time Kentucky lost, especially to Vanderbilt and Marquette!!!!!

Jim Chones or no Jim Chones, we were still strong enough that we should have cleared out that region, IMHO. Mr. Chones was an outstanding ballplayer and as a consequence, we had a much more sophisticated version of Henry Ellenson Disease -- we relied too much on Mr. Chones. Our guards were pretty good and certainly Larry McNeill and Lackey should have picked up the slack.

We didn't and the rest was history!

[4everwarriors]

Sew yo, wee beat Creighton at home on Sat. afta #22 bolted, hey?

[MU82]

And Marquette isn't unusual in that regard.  Many of the top college players from high level programs had underwhelming pro careers.

Many truly great college players did not go on to have great pro careers. I mean, there are some who contend that Laettner is the greatest college player ever, and he was only an OK pro. Meanwhile, a few players who weren't superstars in college get put in the perfect situation as pros and really take off. Butler was pretty damn good at MU, but I doubt a single Scooper thought he would be a multiple-time NBA All-Star.

Plenty of other examples on both sides of this.

I saw Chones play many, many times in the NBA. He was a solid pro for a decade and had numbers that would have brought him nine figures worth of NBA salary in this day and age. He was strong and smart and did a lot of things well. But there were a lot of other great big men then, too.

[MUDPT]

Did Chones ever come back to graduate? That used to be the policy for having your number retired.  Until #3 won an NBA title and the rules didn't apply to a certain coach...

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Did Chones ever come back to graduate? That used to be the policy for having your number retired.  Until #3 won an NBA title and the rules didn't apply to a certain coach...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-05-24/sports/9905240024_1_jim-chones-college-degree-marquette

For the perception of this being a big deal, it sure doesnt seem to be the hold-up. 

[willie warrior]

It is almost impossible to rank MU royalty, because there were so many, and from different eras. Difficult to have a ranking of such greats as Chones, Lee, Lucas, Ellis, Memonger, Kojis, Wade, Thompson and several others.

[GGGG]

Did Chones ever come back to graduate? That used to be the policy for having your number retired.  Until #3 won an NBA title and the rules didn't apply to a certain coach...

Rules?  Are / were these really rules?  Established by whom?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Rules?  Are / were these really rules?  Established by whom?

I seem to remember (maybe the Mascot crew) posting here that Pintens developed some formula the AD developed under Crean?  I don't know how #22 is not in the rafters, including an AA honor, a long NBA career averaging double figures and a World Championship.

In any regard, I am okay with retired jerseys and not numbers in the future. I am NOT a fan of retroactively taking retired numbers back. I think the last three coaches tried to hand out George Thompson's number. Not a good look.

[GGGG]

I seem to remember (maybe the Mascot crew) posting here that Pintens developed some formula the AD developed under Crean?  I don't know how #22 is not in the rafters, including an AA honor, a long NBA career averaging double figures and a World Championship.

In any regard, I am okay with retired jerseys and not numbers in the future. I am NOT a fan of retroactively taking retired numbers back. I think the last three coaches tried to hand out George Thompson's number. Not a good look.

I agree completely on all counts.  I just think the idea that "Crean broke the rules" with Wade is a little silly.  Unless the BOT passed a resolution that was ignored, which IMO didn't happen, then the "rules" (probably more like guidelines) were changed for the best player in the program's history.  Which is just fine.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I agree completely on all counts.  I just think the idea that "Crean broke the rules" with Wade is a little silly.  Unless the BOT passed a resolution that was ignored, which IMO didn't happen, then the "rules" (probably more like guidelines) were changed for the best player in the program's history.  Which is just fine.

Any graduation rule, if it existed, is especially silly today with so many players leaving early. Heck, Haanif was even looking at an Irish Exit. Wade, Rivers, Lucas and Chones all left early...#22 was just the first even though Al was essentially his agent.

Some are still butt hurt I have a feeling due to the mid-season jump. Time adds perspective and the new arena provides a chance to get it right with #22.

[Its DJOver]

Is there actually any chance that this happens, or this all just a combination of reminiscing and wanting another Al era player immortalized.  I would think any push would have to come from Wojo, as if others with the power had wanted it done, it would be done by now.  For Wojo saying all the right things about the legacy of the school/ legacy of Al, is he really well versed enough in MU history to push for recognition for a player that left the school years before he was even born?  Not saying that I'm against it, or that 22 doesn't deserve it, just want to know if this is another off-season conversation, or if it has any possibility.

[GGGG]

Is there actually any chance that this happens, or this all just a combination of reminiscing and wanting another Al era player immortalized.  I would think any push would have to come from Wojo, as if others with the power had wanted it done, it would be done by now.  For Wojo saying all the right things about the legacy of the school/ legacy of Al, is he really well versed enough in MU history to push for recognition for a player that left the school years before he was even born?  Not saying that I'm against it, or that 22 doesn't deserve it, just want to know if this is another off-season conversation, or if it has any possibility.

I think the push would have to come from players from his era and from people (boosters) who are currently close to the program.  My guess is that Wojo would embrace it if it gets to that point.  But I think it is pretty rare to retire a number from nearly 50 years ago.  I don't place the chances very high.

[dgies9156]

Did Chones ever come back to graduate? That used to be the policy for having your number retired.  Until #3 won an NBA title and the rules didn't apply to a certain coach...

At one point way back when, Marquette committed itself to having its basketball players graduate -- even if years from now. During the McGuire era, I believe all but about three or four players received their degrees -- and most of those players came back later to earn them.

[MU82]

I just took a look at our retired numbers list: http://www.marquettebasketball.com/retired-jerseys

I must have missed us officially unretiring 11, which of course never should have been retired in the first place. When did that happen?

[Goose]

#22 was retired a long time ago in the minds of former players and fans that lived that era. I actually would be somewhat pissed off they officially retired it now. It should have been decades ago.

[GGGG]

#22 was retired a long time ago in the minds of former players and fans that lived that era. I actually would be somewhat pissed off they officially retired it now. It should have been decades ago.

What does that even mean?  It's been worn regularly since Chones left.

[Goose]

sultan

Simple, anyone that knows anything about MU ball knows Chones was an all, all time great. In my mind, #22 retired 40 + years ago. The fact that others have worn that number is meaningless to me.

[GGGG]

sultan

Simple, anyone that knows anything about MU ball knows Chones was an all, all time great. In my mind, #22 retired 40 + years ago. The fact that others have worn that number is meaningless to me.

Well OK.