Biggest Marquette "what if"s

[WarriorDad]

Ted

Chones leaving is a footnote to Al leaving. 22 was a top three player in school history, but Al had a ton more eligibility than Chones did.

Chones leading us to a championship game would have meant 3 in 7 years.  That would have been the start of perhaps a permanent legacy for the school, which never materialized.

[Lennys Tap]

Ted

Chones leaving is a footnote to Al leaving. 22 was a top three player in school history, but Al had a ton more eligibility than Chones did.

Goose

In the "what if" world everything is a footnote to Al's arrival and departure. The former made MU what it was and the latter prevented a dynasty. Everything else (while fun) is beside the point "French pastry".

[Newsdreams]

Archie

Walter's girlfriend did not alter his decision on coming to MU from day one. But, I agree things might have been very different if he did come from day one.

Someone mentioned Denny Crum, to me that list could be twenty guys long for that hire. That one hire changed the fate of MU ball forever.

I was that someone

[Archies Bat]

Archie

Walter's girlfriend did not alter his decision on coming to MU from day one. But, I agree things might have been very different if he did come from day one.

Someone mentioned Denny Crum, to me that list could be twenty guys long for that hire. That one hire changed the fate of MU ball forever.

Thanks.  That was the story going around  campus at the time, but I'm sure there was more to it.

[Goose]

Newsdreams

Great call on Denny Crum. Not doubt a big time if in a storied history.

Archie

Have always loved your handle. Good news, Sir Walter ultimately landed here.

[Billy Hoyle]

Father Pilarz and Larry Williams weren't hired..

Then MU is on major probation and Lacrosse may never have gotten off the ground. Larry saved that program before it began.

Some other, less consequential what if's:

-what if Dayton doesn't offer Mike Dean in April 1994?
-what if Wade doesn't run away from the ball on the final play against Tulsa in 2002?
-what if Hutch and Deane didn't hate one another so much in 1998?
-what if Alton Mason doesn't flunk out at midterms? He was reportedly dominating Hutch in practice.
-what if Crean isn't so bullish on Wade that he gets Wade an in person meeting with Father Wild to get an exception to the prohibition on partial qualifiers?

[WarriorDad]

Then MU is on major probation and Lacrosse may never have gotten off the ground. Larry saved that program before it began.

Some other, less consequential what if's:

-what if Dayton doesn't offer Mike Dean in April 1994?
-what if Wade doesn't run away from the ball on the final play against Tulsa in 2002?
-what if Hutch and Deane didn't hate one another so much in 1998?
-what if Alton Mason doesn't flunk out at midterms? He was reportedly dominating Hutch in practice.
-what if Crean isn't so bullish on Wade that he gets Wade an in person meeting with Father Wild to get an exception to the prohibition on partial qualifiers?

Kevin O'Neill was tight with Mike Deane and persuaded Bill Cords to hire Coach Deane. 

Alton Mason, speaking of him, anyone see his son who is a big time model?  https://www.wmagazine.com/story/alton-mason-gucci-model

[vogue65]

Not at least a million, not even close.  Not even in the same county.  According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and the Law school, the athletic department was $50,000 in the whole due to football.  MU dropped football and track and field, despite being the largest Catholic school in the country at the time.  Despite placing 70 players in the NFL, including four that were on the lats team to play at MU.

https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2012/11/23/more-on-marquette-football/

http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111563979.html

I was at MU in the early 70's, wounds of football still in the memories of many professors.  MU pulled the plug, was short sighted on it.  Only two schools dropped football from 1954 to 1972 - Marquette and Detroit.  Most schools if they were going to drop did so prior to '54.  It caught everyone by surprise.  Father O'Donnell made a business decision, but it was nowhere near as dire as suggested and the way in which the school went about it was poor.  Yanking half of the scholarship of players, letting them find out the program was gone on the radio media reports - sounds like something Crean had done.  Piss poor.


In case you were wondering, $50,000 in 1960 is worth $419,258.50 in today's dollars. 

https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1954

https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1920

CNN Money says $50,000 in 1960 is worth $394K  http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/inflation-adjustment/

My recollection, 1961, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66 was that it was all about intellectual and moral excellence.
I don't recall any discussion about money except some talk about the cost of expanding the stadium.  Oh, and the hooliganism that would accompany home games was also frequently discussed.

I was not in the inner circle, I'm still not, I was only a part-time waiter at the Jesuit refectory.   The after hours "discussions" were mostly about the Vietnam war,  and social justice.  Football was quickly forgotten.

[dgies9156]

Those of you who think killing football was a horrible decision need to consider the following:

1) In the past 20 years, very few football teams not in the Power 5 have been legitimate contenders for the national championship.

2) For Marquette to compete against the Alabamas, Auburns, Notre Dames, Tennessees, Wisconsins et al would have required massive investment in facilities, equipment, recruiting etc. We're just not enough of a football power to justify it even then.

3) Some of you will point to the example of Vanderbilt in the SEC, Northwestern in the BIG and Stanford out west. But all Vanderbilt is in the SEC is a coupon clipper living off SEC success. Northwestern occasionally is good and mostly bad and Stanford may be good enough when the PAC 10 is down but is not a perennial powerhouse.

4) If Marquette football were to have been successful, we would have either had to join the BIG 10, which likely would not have had us unless Northwestern or Illinois needed a win, or the Big 8. If we joined the Big 8, we eventually would have been caught up on the wrong side of realignment. I could not have seen us in either conference and there was no way long-term Notre Dame would play us regularly.

In short, we might have struggled through the 1960s with a football program but by the 1970s, we either would have been a Southern Illinois-style program with an occasional winning season and a small stadium and comparatively small investment, or we would have dumped it.

[TheTulsaWarrior]

Tulsa's the smallest D1 football program in the country.  It's been a struggle and that is with some big buck oil men backing the program.  SMU and Baylor made it on a bigger scale thanks to a large and wealthy alum base and oil money.  The only Catholic university D1 program that has made it other than Notre Dame is Boston College.  Marquette's timing was right if not the implementation that was less than kind to the student-athletes in the football program. 

As to "what ifs" -- mine would be "what if" the administration realized when Al McGuire left that they needed to pony up dollars to keep things going. (facilities, recruiting budget and housing)  McGuire got it done on the cheap and the administration didn't have a clue what it would take to keep pace and how to analyze the changing face of college basketball.

[Billy Hoyle]

Chones leading us to a championship game would have meant 3 in 7 years.  That would have been the start of perhaps a permanent legacy for the school, which never materialized.

So, if Chones stays nothing changes moving forward? 74 and 77 materialize the same as they did?

[Archies Bat]

Archie

Have always loved your handle. Good news, Sir Walter ultimately landed here.

I saw Archie swing that bat multiple times, never towards my spot at the bar.

[Floorslapper]

Then MU is on major probation and Lacrosse may never have gotten off the ground. Larry saved that program before it began.

What would MU have been on major probation for if not for Pilarz and Larry?  What specific events would have placed them on major probation?

[Billy Hoyle]

What would MU have been on major probation for if not for Pilarz and Larry?  What specific events would have placed them on major probation?

the way Buzz was heading with academics and recruiting.  Larry came in and cracked down on him severely, which is why Buzz went to the boosters to get rid of Larry.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

the way Buzz was heading with academics and recruiting.  Larry came in and cracked down on him severely, which is why Buzz went to the boosters to get rid of Larry.

Who is going to save us this time!

Sport                   School                              Year             Multi-year APR
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2004-2005   918      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2005-2006   927      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2006-2007   954      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2007-2008   970      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2008-2009   975      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2009-2010   980      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2010-2011   970      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2011-2012   960      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2012-2013   959      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2013-2014   949      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2014-2015   962      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2015-2016   966      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2016-2017   950

[muwarrior69]

What if I went to Nova instead of Marquette. I would be celebrating 3 National Championships instead of one.

[Lennys Tap]

Who is going to save us this time!

Sport                   School                              Year             Multi-year APR
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2004-2005   918      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2005-2006   927      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2006-2007   954      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2007-2008   970      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2008-2009   975      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2009-2010   980      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2010-2011   970      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2011-2012   960      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2012-2013   959      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2013-2014   949      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2014-2015   962      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2015-2016   966      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2016-2017   950

Wow. Truth don't jibe with Billy's "facts". More fake news.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Wow. Truth don't jibe with Billy's "facts". More fake news.

I would be interested to hear how Larry "saved" lacrosse too?  He doesn't even mention LAX in his own Akron bio.

[WarriorDad]

So, if Chones stays nothing changes moving forward? 74 and 77 materialize the same as they did?

Impossible to know.  Maybe we don't make it in '74 and '77, maybe we get better recruits and beat out Indiana in '76.  Absolutely impossible to know how things turn out.

[Floorslapper]

the way Buzz was heading with academics and recruiting.  Larry came in and cracked down on him severely, which is why Buzz went to the boosters to get rid of Larry.

And Buzz was 100% correct to go to the boosters to get Larry fired.  Guy was a tool and completely overmatched in his role as A.D., just as Pilarz was as President. 

[dgies9156]

So, if Chones stays nothing changes moving forward? 74 and 77 materialize the same as they did?

Most likely yes. We had Maurice Lucas when Chones was here. Bo Ellis was coming and the final key of our 1977 team was Butch Lee. Choses coming or going was not going to change things.

I'd argue in looking at these teams was the biggest what if... was if Jim Chones, Larry McNeill and then Maurice Lucas had played through their four years. A front line of Chones, McNeill and Lucas would have been unstoppable, as would a line of McNeill, Lucas and Ellis. The talent we had in the 1970s was unbelievable up and down the line-up. That's an awful lot of talent to lose.

We lost in 1972 because we had to adjust to no Chones and in 1975, not having Maurice Lucas left a huge hole in our line-up. Jerry Homan was good but he was not THAT good.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And Buzz was 100% correct to go to the boosters to get Larry fired.  Guy was a tool and completely overmatched in his role as A.D., just as Pilarz was as President.

I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion on Larry and Pilarz. But in no universe is it 100% correct for an employee to go behind his boss' back and ask people outside his organization to get his boss fired.

Pilarz was overmatched IMHO. Larry was....rough around the edges....but was capable. He was arguably the strongest individual force behind the reformation of the Big East. Without the work he put in, we might have been playing conference games against ECU and Tulane.

[Goose]

Why would Chones leaving affect '74 or '77 in any way? What am I missed by here? Obviously his leaving affected the program in a big way, but not sure how it affected teams years down the road.

[4everwarriors]

Wright, #22's eligibility wooda expired in '73, hey?

[WarriorDad]

Why would Chones leaving affect '74 or '77 in any way? What am I missed by here? Obviously his leaving affected the program in a big way, but not sure how it affected teams years down the road.

The argument would go something like this. Chones stays, MU wins it all, MU becomes big headed and less hungry, fails to make it that far in 1974.   That's one version, there are others.  If you believe in the concept that every action has a reaction then the future constructs change if the past is changed.  No guarantees of repeat performances if items of the past are not the same, thus it is impossible to know what would have happened.  I'm of the belief that we would have solidified ourselves as a powerhouse of the lasting variety.