Al and MU in the 70s vs. Wright and Nova in the 2010s

[wadesworld]

I wasn't around in the 1970s. Was Marquette's program as good during that run as Villanova is having now? Was it tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70s as it is today?

Wright has it going. Good thing for Nova is they gave him time to build his program despite a mediocre start to his career there. He has said as much a number of times. He is awesome and Nova is an incredible team with a heck of a run.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Good thing for Nova is they gave him time to build his program despite a mediocre start to his career there. He has said as much a number of times.

You are right -- sure needed 5 years to judge this coach....

Year          Record      Conference  Post Season
2001–02   19–13   7–9   5th      NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03   15–16   8–8   T–3rd   NIT First Round
2003–04   18–17   6–10   11th      NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05   24–8           11–5   T–3rd   NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06   28–5           14–2   T–1st   NCAA Elite Eight

[wadesworld]

You are right -- sure needed 5 years to judge this coach....

Year          Record      Conference  Post Season
2001–02   19–13   7–9   5th      NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03   15–16   8–8   T–3rd   NIT First Round
2003–04   18–17   6–10   11th      NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05   24–8           11–5   T–3rd   NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06   28–5           14–2   T–1st   NCAA Elite Eight

Right. So through Wojo's 4 years coaching he wasn't overly far behind Jay Wright's first 4 years. Same number of NCAA Tournament appearances. 2 less NCAA Tournament wins. 2 less total wins. 2 more total losses.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Eldon]

Right. So through Wojo's 4 years coaching he wasn't overly far behind Jay Wright's first 4 years. Same number of NCAA Tournament appearances. 2 less NCAA Tournament wins. 2 less total wins. 2 more total losses.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Okay, bud.  Sure.

[wadesworld]

Okay, bud.  Sure.

I guess I'm wrong? So please enlighten me.

How many NCAA Tournament wins did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova (the number of years Wojo has been a head coach at Marquette)?

How many NCAA Tournament appearances did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova?

What were Jay Wright's and Wojo's records their first 4 seasons at Nova/MU?

[Herman Cain]

I wasn't around in the 1970s. Was Marquette's program as good during that run as Villanova is having now? Was it tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70s as it is today?

Wright has it going. Good thing for Nova is they gave him time to build his program despite a mediocre start to his career there. He has said as much a number of times. He is awesome and Nova is an incredible team with a heck of a run.

MU in Al's day was the #2 program in the country after UCLA.  We struck fear into the heart of our opponents and most games were won before they even started. The gap between #1 and #2 was of course very wide. However, we were recruiting the best of the best though , which we sustained through the first couple of years after Al retired.  Young players aspired to play for MU.   

Also back in those days teams were able to stock pile good players as there were no scholarship limits.  The most famous example was UCLA back up center Swen Nater who never started a game and was recruited primarily to serve as a practice player for Bill Walton. Nater ended being a first round draft choice and having a stellar ABA/NBA career. Also there was no 3 pointer , which made the game big man inside play dominant.   So getting to number 1 was a very hard challenge back in our golden era.

The Big East as currently constituted is a big asset for Villanova. Their solid record in the double round robin against quality teams is ensuring a high seeding.  If they can continue to recruit at the level they have been recently I think it is possible they reach the level MU was at in the next couple of years.

[dgies9156]

The gap between #1 and #2 was of course very wide. However, we were recruiting the best of the best though , which we sustained through the first couple of years after Al retired.  Young players aspired to play for MU.   

Not sure I agree with this Herm. Otherwise a great post.

1) UCLA was a better "money" team than we were but probably not more talented. From 1969 on, we had tournament mishaps through the 1970s. Whether it was a missed free-throw in 1969, a poorly reffed game in 1971, player losses (which UCLA didn't have), the gap was not as wide as you suggest.

In fact, had Jim Chones not left us in 1972, some think we would have kicked UCLA back into Westwood.

2) Our recruiting dropped off the day Al announced he was retiring. Hank may have been the biggest mistake the Jesuits ever made (even worse than Dukiet), Ray Meyer was the biggest beneficiary of Al's retirement and Depaul and perhaps Louisville went to the NCAA final four on talent Al probably would hve recruited!

[GooooMarquette]

Wright was better than Wojo four years in at Nova, but not by a big  margin. His overall winning pct was .585, Wojo's is .554. He went to one NCAA Tournament like Wojo, but he won 2 games.  So definitely better, but not dramatically.

This shouldn't be terribly surprising. Before going to Nova, Wright had seven years of D1 head coaching experience at Hofstra. Wojo had zero. So of course you would expect him to be better.

And FWIW if you look at Wright's first four years as a head coach, he is behind Wojo...against weaker competition.

I am not saying Wojo will match Wright's record. It's way too early to know. He obviously has work to do...and fortunately time to do it.


Regarding your main question - it's apples and oranges. In the 70s, there was UCLA, then Marquette, then a bunch of other teams. Today, there is no obvious first or second best, but about five or six programs at similar levels (Nova, UNC, UK, Duke, MSU).

[willie warrior]

Right. So through Wojo's 4 years coaching he wasn't overly far behind Jay Wright's first 4 years. Same number of NCAA Tournament appearances. 2 less NCAA Tournament wins. 2 less total wins. 2 more total losses.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Riiiiggghhhtttt.... Wrights' 4th year was a hell of a lot better than #Wojo's 4th year by any comparison. Always amazed by the Wojo love comparing Wojo to Wright.

[WarriorDad]

You are right -- sure needed 5 years to judge this coach....

Year          Record      Conference  Post Season
2001–02   19–13   7–9   5th      NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03   15–16   8–8   T–3rd   NIT First Round
2003–04   18–17   6–10   11th      NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05   24–8           11–5   T–3rd   NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06   28–5           14–2   T–1st   NCAA Elite Eight

Wojo got us into the NCAAs in year three, took Wright until year four.  Wright inherited a NIT team, Wojo inherited a team that couldn't even get into the NIT.  Wright's 3rd year in the Big East they were 11th in Conference and went 6-10 after going 7-9 and 8-8 his first two years.

Now, I'm not comparing the two and saying they will be the same, but if Wright's results were Wojos in the first three years, some of you would be calling for his head.

Oh how about this, after Wright's Final Four in '09 Nova did this

'10 NCAA second round loss despite #2 seed
'11 NCAA first round loss
'12 No NCAAs
'13 NCAA first round loss

[WarriorDad]

MU in Al's day was the #2 program in the country after UCLA.  We struck fear into the heart of our opponents and most games were won before they even started. The gap between #1 and #2 was of course very wide. However, we were recruiting the best of the best though , which we sustained through the first couple of years after Al retired.  Young players aspired to play for MU.   

Also back in those days teams were able to stock pile good players as there were no scholarship limits.  The most famous example was UCLA back up center Swen Nater who never started a game and was recruited primarily to serve as a practice player for Bill Walton. Nater ended being a first round draft choice and having a stellar ABA/NBA career. Also there was no 3 pointer , which made the game big man inside play dominant.   So getting to number 1 was a very hard challenge back in our golden era.

The Big East as currently constituted is a big asset for Villanova. Their solid record in the double round robin against quality teams is ensuring a high seeding.  If they can continue to recruit at the level they have been recently I think it is possible they reach the level MU was at in the next couple of years.

We were definitely #2 for the decade in terms of winning percentage and AP polls.  Should have won two titles in my opinion, outside shot at three.  Chones leaving was an absolute killer. 

Are you sure about unlimited scholarships back then? In 1973 the NCAA limited football scholarships, which were further limited in later years.  Basketball was eventually limited to 13, but I cannot recall when the original limit of 15 was put in.

[drewm88]

FWIW, maybe five years ago someone (and I think it was someone legit like SI) put together a ranking of the top college team decades in NCAA history. I believe Marquette in the 70s was ranked #2 overall, behind UCLA in the 70s. In other words, Marquette in the 70s was considered more dominant than any decade ever by UK, KU, Duke, UNC, etc. Can't find it now, and it's obviously a pretty arbitrary ranking, but I always appreciated it.

[LAZER]

I guess I'm wrong? So please enlighten me.

How many NCAA Tournament wins did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova (the number of years Wojo has been a head coach at Marquette)?

How many NCAA Tournament appearances did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova?

What were Jay Wright's and Wojo's records their first 4 seasons at Nova/MU?

I don't disagree with your overall premise here.  But Wright's 4th year (04-05) team was stacked and returned everybody the following year - preseason ranked #3. 

So the results may have been similar, but to compare where Wright & Wojo are heading into their 5th aren't really close at all.  Hard to imagine any Villanova fans doubting Wright's ability and upside at that time.

[mu.n8ball]

FWIW, maybe five years ago someone (and I think it was someone legit like SI) put together a ranking of the top college team decades in NCAA history. I believe Marquette in the 70s was ranked #2 overall, behind UCLA in the 70s. In other words, Marquette in the 70s was considered more dominant than any decade ever by UK, KU, Duke, UNC, etc. Can't find it now, and it's obviously a pretty arbitrary ranking, but I always appreciated it.

There's this from ESPN

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf

[Goose]

Herman

I am not so sure on how wide that margin was, especially the first 8 years of the decade. My one regret from the Al era was MU didn't get their chances head to head against the Bruins. Will add, UCLA was loaded year in and year out.

[connie]

I like the idea, but different worlds.

[real chili 83]

I was present when the Domers beat them in SB V Walton. We could have beaten them easily.

[Class71]

Herman

I am not so sure on how wide that margin was, especially the first 8 years of the decade. My one regret from the Al era was MU didn't get their chances head to head against the Bruins. Will add, UCLA was loaded year in and year out.

Al felt the same way. He once said that he realized ULCA was the best thing since sliced bread but he just wanted to have that chance. The biggest problem we had before Chones was the lack of a good big. We had great jumpers and kids tough as nails but no length. Pistol Pete learned that great D from the Dean the Dream and others was a show stopper. We also learned we needed a big that could handle Big Bob Lanier types. That eventually happened and you know the rest of the story.

In those days Marquette was the dinner, dessert and with Al always the wild guy who gave every ounce of blood and sweat to win. Those tears in 1977 were real as they were for the players. Jay W. Is a different type of coach. Al was unique and he has and always will be Marquette. He inspired players to become great as a team.

[real chili 83]

In 74, we would  have had Lucas, Chones, and McNeil.

[nyg]

In 74, we would  have had Lucas, Chones, and McNeil.

He stated before Chones arrived, but you are right with that facts, except Chones would have been gone.

Three things changed the program, losing those three players in three straight years. 

72-73. Chones don't leave:

Larry McNeil
Chones
Maurice Lucas
George Frazier
Marcus Washington
Allie McGuire

73-74. McNeil doesn't leave

Larry McNeil
Maurice Lucas
Bo Ellis
Earl Tatum
Lloyd Walton
Marcus Washington

74-75  Lucas doesn't leave

Bo Ellis
Maurice Lucas
Earl Tatum
Butch Lee
Jerry Holman

Those teams in those three years lost 13 games, including runner up in 1974.  If none of the three left, maybe lose 6 to 7.  The talent would have been just extraordinary and that was the difference.

Fast forward to 1977, it changed when Al retired and Mark Aguirre went to Depaul.  Al stays and he gets Aguirre and probably the MCCray brothers. 

[Goose]

nyg

Spot on about Al leaving. Aquirre, Cummings, Grubbs, Mc Cray boys and others very likely land at MU. Aquirre was ours until Al left. MU was poised for another decade of top 1-2 programs in the country if Al had not left. Thanks for the reminder, I am back to being pissed at Al for stepping down at 47.

[Galway Eagle]

nyg

Spot on about Al leaving. Aquirre, Cummings, Grubbs, Mc Cray boys and others very likely land at MU. Aquirre was ours until Al left. MU was poised for another decade of top 1-2 programs in the country if Al had not left. Thanks for the reminder, I am back to being pissed at Al for stepping down at 47.

Is this true? I've researched it before and never seen an article referencing Agguire's interest in MU pre Al. Articles always say that he wanted to stay in Chicago.

[nyg]

Is this true? I've researched it before and never seen an article referencing Agguire's interest in MU pre Al. Articles always say that he wanted to stay in Chicago.

Yes, no internet back then, just paper.  Bob Gibbons used to put out the best recruiting reports, you subscribed and it was mailed to you.  Was called the All Star Report if I recall.  Aguirre was probably a done deal, as were the McCray brothers.  Aguirre from Chicago up the road, McCray brothers from Mt. Vernon, NY high school, same as Earl Tatum.  Rodney was number 3 pick overall in draft and Scooter wasn't bad either.  Wish I had a publication reference, but take my word and others who know. 

[Goose]

nyg

You are correct. Aquirre was 100% done deal. He mentioned years later in SI on how Al's leaving changed the path of his career. The McCray's were awfully close to done deal. Al was recruiting at higher level every year and the sky was the limit.

[GGGG]

That 1980 Louisville team with the McCray brothers, Dr. Dunkenstein Darrel Griffith and Derek Smith was a fun one to watch.