[Paint Touches] A Brief History of the Modern College Basketball Rebuild

[Dr. Blackheart]

I'd pick Acker, Lazar, Luke, and JJ. But that said, Lazar is a spectacular outlier on that list. I think you can pretty safely say Lazar Hayward is one of the 20 best players in Marquette history. If we were all making All-American style first, second, and third all-Marquette teams, Lazar would land on a ton of lists. In terms of both offense and defense, he was a fantastic college player. Nothing against those other 7 players, but they have absolutely nothing on Lazar.

A reminder that Buzz kicked 'Lil Bit off the team during that offseason and he tried to railroad Cooby off.

[jesmu84]

I believe that players tend to commit to a coach rather than a school/program. Assuming this is true, it makes sense that new outside hires are typically facing an uphill battle at the start (because the current players/recruits don't know them) This is even more true if it is their first head coaching job as they have no previous recruiting class to try and transition with them.

If you believe the above, then, yes, Marquette has history. Even recent success before wojo got here. And great resources. But that matters little once wojo was selected to run the show until he's able to get the program in motion from the screeching halt that happened.

Players followed Buzz. Players transferred. It happens.

I believe buzz is a better coach.

I believe wojo's rebuild was harder than Buzz's (at VT) from a roster/career standpoint. Yes, MU has more resources and more historical tradition, but that doesn't hold significant importance for players who commit to coaches first/programs second.

[Floorslapper]

I believe that players tend to commit to a coach rather than a school/program. Assuming this is true, it makes sense that new outside hires are typically facing an uphill battle at the start (because the current players/recruits don't know them) This is even more true if it is their first head coaching job as they have no previous recruiting class to try and transition with them.

If you believe the above, then, yes, Marquette has history. Even recent success before wojo got here. And great resources. But that matters little once wojo was selected to run the show until he's able to get the program in motion from the screeching halt that happened.

Players followed Buzz. Players transferred. It happens.

I believe buzz is a better coach.

I believe wojo's rebuild was harder than Buzz's (at VT) from a roster/career standpoint. Yes, MU has more resources and more historical tradition, but that doesn't hold significant importance for players who commit to coaches first/programs second.

Well said jes.  Fair points you raise.  Happen to disagree with last paragraph non-bolded, but the above bolded is valid.

[skianth16]

I believe that players tend to commit to a coach rather than a school/program. Assuming this is true, it makes sense that new outside hires are typically facing an uphill battle at the start (because the current players/recruits don't know them) This is even more true if it is their first head coaching job as they have no previous recruiting class to try and transition with them.

Some might be very focused on the coach. But it sure seems like ADs are placing some pretty hefty bets that recruits will care a lot about what the school/program have to offer looking at all the money schools pour into state of the art practice facilities and locker rooms. One of the most extreme examples I can think of is the new Texas football facility. You know recruits go through a building like that and want to experience that kind of environment every day.

[jesmu84]

Some might be very focused on the coach. But it sure seems like ADs are placing some pretty hefty bets that recruits will care a lot about what the school/program have to offer looking at all the money schools pour into state of the art practice facilities and locker rooms. One of the most extreme examples I can think of is the new Texas football facility. You know recruits go through a building like that and want to experience that kind of environment every day.

Football and basketball are different animals entirely.

However, if you believe that players commit to a program/resources, then why are there so many decommits and transfers that occur when coaches leave? Especially so when the new coach is an outside here?

[GGGG]

I'd pick Acker, Lazar, Luke, and JJ. But that said, Lazar is a spectacular outlier on that list. I think you can pretty safely say Lazar Hayward is one of the 20 best players in Marquette history. If we were all making All-American style first, second, and third all-Marquette teams, Lazar would land on a ton of lists. In terms of both offense and defense, he was a fantastic college player. Nothing against those other 7 players, but they have absolutely nothing on Lazar.

Agreed.  I think Lazar has gotten unfairly overlooked.  Maybe it's because he crapped out of the NBA. 

[Galway Eagle]

Agreed.  I think Lazar has gotten unfairly overlooked.  Maybe it's because he crapped out of the NBA.

Think he would've been better in a different system? He never really got a run with MN or OKC

[GGGG]

Think he would've been better in a different system? He never really got a run with MN or OKC

Well he was an undersized guy who couldn't shoot well enough at the NBA level.

[Galway Eagle]

Well he was an undersized guy who couldn't shoot well enough at the NBA level.

Seems to work ok for Crowder

[skianth16]

Football and basketball are different animals entirely.

However, if you believe that players commit to a program/resources, then why are there so many decommits and transfers that occur when coaches leave? Especially so when the new coach is an outside here?

I don't have the data on this, but don't the majority of players stay when a coach leaves? Not sure about commits, but I'd think that might be 50/50. For those that leave, I think the shiny things that seem impressive when you're 18 don't feel as impressive when you experience it day in and day out, so when there's a changing of the guard, the focus is more on what the new culture will be. And for others that leave, they might have been coach first guys all along. I'm sure on our current roster, some committed to Wojo and some committed to Marquette. That's probably true all over. What the proportion is, I have no idea.

[Lennys Tap]

Seems to work ok for Crowder

Jae was a much, much better on ball defender.

[MU82]

I'm just trying to figure out how many threads in the last 4 years have either started out as or morphed into debates about whether Wojo had the more difficult rebuild at MU than Buzz did at VT.

10? 50? 100?

With every debater sure that he/she is right every time.

Maybe we can bring KO into it, too. That's always a pretty popular one.

[WarriorDad]

TAMU, great work.  Effort like this is why Scoop is really an amazing community.  Thank you.

My quibble...

How many of those programs had made 7 of 8 tourneys and finished 9-9 in conf the year before?  We can argue all day long about the cupboard but I think we can all agree the name on the front of the jersey was one that had enjoyed considerable very recent success...

7 of 8 NCAAs
3 S16s in the past 4 years
1 E8 only 12 months ago
9-9 in conf that season

All those things point to what should be an easier rebuild.  Apathy had yet to set in.

Apathy may not have set in, but it didn't help that when coach left, he trashed the league (which proved to be completely wrong in his prediction), took some recruits and others decided to go elsewhere.  That's not a good way to start a rebuild, especially when the guy leaving goes to a program considered a level or two below ours. 

[brewcity77]

A reminder that Buzz kicked 'Lil Bit off the team during that offseason and he tried to railroad Cooby off.

Yup. He had to go back and beg Acker to come back, and his story about how he tried to run Cooby off is insane. Amazing that David stuck around considering how Buzz pretty much tried force him to quit every single day.

Jae was a much, much better on ball defender.

Jae also has a ridiculous motor. I don't know that I've ever seen a player with a more competitive edge to them. Lazar was a very good player, but Jae was the guy who was first to the floor on ever play, diving out of bounds to save balls, and just outworked everyone that came up against him. I think that served him well at the next level.

[Lennys Tap]

Apathy may not have set in, but it didn't help that when coach left, he trashed the league (which proved to be completely wrong in his prediction), took some recruits and others decided to go elsewhere.  That's not a good way to start a rebuild, especially when the guy leaving goes to a program considered a level or two below ours.

Back with your typical BS, Chico. Still waiting for those other shoes to drop (that never will).

[WarriorDad]

Back with your typical BS, Chico. Still waiting for those other shoes to drop (that never will).

Is this a thing?   You called Billy Hoyle this same thing when I praised Coach Buzz last week, why do you call posters this?  Inside joke you wish to let us in on? Several others doing it.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=55605.msg989578#msg989578


Buzz is a great coach, tremendous respect for him.  He did take shots at the Big East when he left and did go to a lower level status job for less money according to his AD.  What did I say that you are arguing with?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/03/29/coach-salary-database-buzz-williams-virginia-tech/99640588/

[mileskishnish72]

Good work, TAMU. I think you have done enough to show that this MU experience could be characterized as a "rebuild." You have investigated all the hires and found the "best fit" comparison.

As for whether Buzz is a better coach than Woj, I'd have to (for the time being) side with Buzz. I was very impressed with how he had the midgets slow things down - that was terrific. I think his input in that regard saved the season.
There were times during Buzz's tenure that I thought he would need to improve as an in-game coach - and he did. Likewise, we have seen lately wide dissemination of the MU defensive data relative to Rowsey/Howard being on the floor together. It may have been imposed on Woj after the Markus injury, but the data seemed definitive. We'll have to see if he can evaluate the data/recent results and see what he does going forward.