Assessing our Warriors

[GGGG]

As a matter of perspective do you feel being projected for a 7th or 8th place finish in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure is a vote of confidence that we have the right man on the job?

As opposed to Jay Wright's 13th place finish in year 11 at Nova?  Or Chris Mack's seventh place finish in his 8th year at Xavier?  Or Greg McDermott's 9th place finish in year 5 at Creighton?

This team is performing to what I expected.  I expect a lot more out of next year's team.

[tower912]

As a matter of perspective do you feel being projected for a 7th or 8th place finish in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure is a vote of confidence that we have the right man on the job?

Kids transferring out of the program ultimately is on Wojo. Think it is kind of an irrelevant statement to even suggest Haanif leaving justifies the "performance."

Personally I was hoping in Year 4 we'd be a solid NCAA team and not be a coin flip probability of beating DePaul and St.Johns (in any venue.)

4 of the top 9 players from last year's tourney team were gone.    A fifth left mid year.      It is a far different team, a far younger team.   It isn't what I hoped, and I did fall prey to some preseason optimism.    I am not saying Haanif's leaving justifies performance.    I am reminding that the preseason prognosticators looked at Marquette's roster and objectively and without agenda said 7th.    As opposed to our blue and gold hearts that said higher and NCAA tourney.     
    To your other statement, I think what I have always thought.   I had concerns when Wojo came to MU.    Lack of head coaching experience and only having exposure to one system being two of them.    I have said that, IMO, the key to Wojo's long term success is for him to be able to grow beyond his Duke roots.  I'm not convinced he has yet.  But I still believe he has the capacity to do so.   I can still see the road map.    I still support him.    But the jury is still out.   

[Lennys Tap]

As opposed to Jay Wright's 13th place finish in year 11 at Nova?  Or Chris Mack's seventh place finish in his 8th year at Xavier?  Or Greg McDermott's 9th place finish in year 5 at Creighton?

This team is performing to what I expected.  I expect a lot more out of next year's team.

Jay Wright had a bad year in year 11 at Villanova but he was coming off of 7 straight NCAAS including 2 Sweet 16s, one Elite 8 and one Final Four.

Chris Mack's 7th place in year 8 (9-9 in the Big East) was the result of losing his 2 best players to injury. In that "bad" year they still made the NCAAs, regrouped and advanced to the Elite 8. This will be his 7th NCAA tournament in 8 years at Xavier.

Any comparisons of those guys' records  to Wojo's is ridiculous.

[GGGG]

Jay Wright had a bad year in year 11 at Villanova but he was coming off of 7 straight NCAAS including 2 Sweet 16s, one Elite 8 and one Final Four.

Chris Mack's 7th place in year 8 (9-9 in the Big East) was the result of losing his 2 best players to injury. In that "bad" year they still made the NCAAs, regrouped and advanced to the Elite 8. This will be his 7th NCAA tournament in 8 years at Xavier.

Any comparisons of those guys' records  to Wojo's is ridiculous.

The point is the whole concept of finishing in x place in y year is ridiculous. 

Teams and coaches don't steadily improve without regression.  Wojo had MU improving each year until they made the NCAAs.  They were obviously going to regress this year.  They should obviously improve next year.

[Lennys Tap]

The point is the whole concept of finishing in x place in y year is ridiculous. 

Teams and coaches don't steadily improve without regression.  Wojo had MU improving each year until they made the NCAAs.  They were obviously going to regress this year.  They should obviously improve next year.

Your opinion may or may not have merit.

The choices you made to illustrate it did not.

[GGGG]

Your opinion may or may not have merit.

The choices you made to illustrate it did not.

Uh...yeah they did.  My entire point wasn't to compare Wojo to them, but that even established coaches can have regressions.  Sometimes multiple year regressions.

[Lennys Tap]

Uh...yeah they did.  My entire point wasn't to compare Wojo to them, but that even established coaches can have regressions.  Sometimes multiple year regressions.

Uh...no. Your "regression" for Mack was an Elite 8 season, the kind of success Wojo may have dreamed about but has never approached. Weak work, Sultan.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

As a matter of perspective do you feel being projected for a 7th or 8th place finish in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure is a vote of confidence that we have the right man on the job?

Kids transferring out of the program ultimately is on Wojo. Think it is kind of an irrelevant statement to even suggest Haanif leaving justifies the "performance."

Personally I was hoping in Year 4 we'd be a solid NCAA team and not be a coin flip probability of beating DePaul and St.Johns (in any venue.)

In a vacuum, expecting better than a 7th place finish in the Big East by year 4 is absolutely a reasonable expectation.

Once you look at the roster Wojo took over and the rest of the Big East, it becomes a little less reasonable.

Wojo inherited a roster full of players who would graduate in 2017. He lost some of those but gained others who would graduate in 2017. Wojo essentially had two options, he could have run off players like JJJ, Luke, Sandy, Duane etc who, while solid players, were never going to amount to more than one 10 seed in an NCAA tournament. He could have also avoided recruiting quick fixes like Car3no, Henry, and Katin. Instead he could have recruited freshman and younger transfers to build for year 4. It would have mean really bad basketball the first three years but probably a better team this season.

Instead, Wojo tried to put a winning product on the floor the first three years, knowing there was going to be a step back in year four, while building for years five and six. Was it the right move? Maybe, maybe not. If it ends up in a tournament streak starting next year, I think it was worth it.

The other thing is the Big East itself. This is the deepest Big East since the reformation. A team that finishes 7th this season likely would have finished 3rd in Wojo's first season. Next season....it will be one of the more shallow Big Easts.

[jesmu84]

Uh...no. Your "regression" for Mack was an Elite 8 season, the kind of success Wojo may have dreamed about but has never approached. Weak work, Sultan.

Wasn't the whole debate about what place they finished in conference standings? Not about NCAA tourney results

[GGGG]

Uh...no. Your "regression" for Mack was an Elite 8 season, the kind of success Wojo may have dreamed about but has never approached. Weak work, Sultan.

I was using the same logic Ners was. 

Wasn't the whole debate about what place they finished in conference standings? Not about NCAA tourney results

Bingo!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Where you finish in conference standings isn't a very good measuring stick. Conference strength varies between years. Also if you finish in a 4 way tie for 4th did you finish 4th or 7th? What if one year there's a lot parity and everyone ends up around 9-9 and the next year there are three garbage teams so the 7th place team ends up with a winning record?

I prefer KenPom rankings or NCAA tournament seeds. Relatively between years the team ranked 50th in KenPom is about as good as the team ranked 50th in KenPom the previous year. 6 seeds between the years tend to be about the same quality.

[BM1090]

Where you finish in conference standings isn't a very good measuring stick. Conference strength varies between years. Also if you finish in a 4 way tie for 4th did you finish 4th or 7th? What if one year there's a lot parity and everyone ends up around 9-9 and the next year there are three garbage teams so the 7th place team ends up with a winning record?

I prefer KenPom rankings or NCAA tournament seeds. Relatively between years the team ranked 50th in KenPom is about as good as the team ranked 50th in KenPom the previous year. 6 seeds between the years tend to be about the same quality.

Last year for example. Middle of the Big East was jammed so *technically* we finished 3rd last year. Did anyonr expect that? No? Guess Wojo exceeded expectations by a huge margin!

[Lennys Tap]

Wasn't the whole debate about what place they finished in conference standings? Not about NCAA tourney results

No. Floorslapper specifically said "wouldn't you rather have a solid NCAA team" (see Xavier, last year in the Elite 8).

[GGGG]

No. Floorslapper specifically said "wouldn't you rather have a solid NCAA team" (see Xavier, last year in the Elite 8).

Not the part I quoted and responded to.

[Lennys Tap]

Not the part I quoted and responded to.

Partial quotes that intentionally alter the true meaning of the quoted poster. Not your best work, Sultan.

[GGGG]

Partial quotes that intentionally alter the true meaning of the quoted poster. Not your best work, Sultan.

He asked a question.  I answered that specific question.  That is something that is done often when a post addresses multiple points or rambles on.

So go eat a dick Lennys.

[Lennys Tap]

He asked a question.  I answered that specific question.  That is something that is done often when a post addresses multiple points or rambles on.

So go eat a dick Lennys.

LOL. What are you, 10?

[GGGG]

LOL. What are you, 10?

A ten year old at least won't engage in the shifting goalposts like you did above. They are more intellectually honest. Shameful display of your Marquette education.

[Lennys Tap]

A ten year old at least won't engage in the shifting goalposts like you did above. They are more intellectually honest. Shameful display of your Marquette education.

Says the guy who tells other guys to eat a dick. LOL, Aristotle.

[Floorslapper]

Jay Wright had a bad year in year 11 at Villanova but he was coming off of 7 straight NCAAS including 2 Sweet 16s, one Elite 8 and one Final Four.

Chris Mack's 7th place in year 8 (9-9 in the Big East) was the result of losing his 2 best players to injury. In that "bad" year they still made the NCAAs, regrouped and advanced to the Elite 8. This will be his 7th NCAA tournament in 8 years at Xavier.

Any comparisons of those guys' records  to Wojo's is ridiculous.

Drop the mic.

Completely ludicrous to try to compare Wojo to coaches who have a sh$t ton of skins on the wall and accomplishments. Such accomplishments earn a lot of grace from any organization, for a down year or even years.

Sorry this caused Sultan to go off the rails and suggest you eat a dick (for making a prescient point.).

[Floorslapper]

4 of the top 9 players from last year's tourney team were gone.    A fifth left mid year.      It is a far different team, a far younger team.   It isn't what I hoped, and I did fall prey to some preseason optimism.    I am not saying Haanif's leaving justifies performance.    I am reminding that the preseason prognosticators looked at Marquette's roster and objectively and without agenda said 7th.    As opposed to our blue and gold hearts that said higher and NCAA tourney.     
    To your other statement, I think what I have always thought.   I had concerns when Wojo came to MU.    Lack of head coaching experience and only having exposure to one system being two of them.    I have said that, IMO, the key to Wojo's long term success is for him to be able to grow beyond his Duke roots.  I'm not convinced he has yet.  But I still believe he has the capacity to do so.   I can still see the road map.    I still support him.    But the jury is still out.

Solid post Tower. I hope Wojo succeeds. Last thing I want is 4 more years of struggle/rebuilding, etc. he's improved some. We play an entertaining style of basketball. It's not an awful product on the floor by any means. But, we need to take that next step.

As for preseason prognostications though, we all should remember Buzz's last team was picked to win the conference. (They missed the NIT.). Yet in retrospect think it is quite clear to most that Buzz was WAY checked out his last year at MU..this the result being so far off the mark.

[BM1090]

Solid post Tower. I hope Wojo succeeds. Last thing I want is 4 more years of struggle/rebuilding, etc. he's improved some. We play an entertaining style of basketball. It's not an awful product on the floor by any means. But, we need to take that next step.

As for preseason prognostications though, we all should remember Buzz's last team was picked to win the conference. (They missed the NIT.). Yet in retrospect think it is quite clear to most that Buzz was WAY checked out his last year at MU..this the result being so far off the mark.

I think you're giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt. But either way it was a crap coaching job

[tower912]

Golly, thanks for liking my post, ners.   I am all atingle.     As to prognostications, yes, sometimes they get them right, and sometimes they get them wrong.   

[real chili 83]

In before the lock.

[GGGG]

Drop the mic.

Completely ludicrous to try to compare Wojo to coaches who have a sh$t ton of skins on the wall and accomplishments. Such accomplishments earn a lot of grace from any organization, for a down year or even years.

Sorry this caused Sultan to go off the rails and suggest you eat a dick (for making a prescient point.).

Ners still hasn't solved his reading problem I see.