Making a trade

[MU82]

Actually our last three hires, and four out of the last five, didn't have head coaching experience.  But you know who did?  Mike Deane.  And you know who else?  Bob Dukiet.

Yep.

Izzo didn't have head-coaching experience, either. Nor did Roy Williams before he got the KU job.

Also, Denny Crum, Mark Few, Jim Boeheim, Brad Stevens, Ray Meyer, John Thompson, Steve Fisher.

[MU82]

Back to the original posters question,


Crean in a landslide.  Simple, look at the resumes' and look at everything Crean did for MU.

If one only looked at the resumes, Ben Howland would have been our choice by a landslide.

Over Shaka, over Martin, over Wojo, etc.

There's probably a few people who still think he should have been.

[tower912]

Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive.    We know what his ceiling is.   18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs.    Wojo's is still TBD.

[Dish]

Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive.    We know what his ceiling is.   18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs.    Wojo's is still TBD.

Woj's resume right now is "Beat Villanova".

[tower912]

Woj's resume right now is "Beat Villanova".

But we don't know what his ceiling is.    Right now, in the total rationality that this board exhibits during a losing streak, some are finding it difficult to see a brighter future.    In our last two games, 136 of the 145 points have been scored by freshmen and sophomores.     
I would rather roll the dice guessing at Wojo's theoretical ceiling instead of Crean's known ceiling. 

[Charlotte Warrior]

Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive.    We know what his ceiling is.   18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs.    Wojo's is still TBD.

Not sure what your trying to say.  Wojo's is/will be 1 tourney birth in 4 years.   Advantage Crean??

[tower912]

What I am saying is that I know how far Crean can take a program.    I don't know how far Wojo can.   I would rather go with Wojo and risk failure betting that once he starts rolling MU will be a power.   I have seen that Crean cannot create a perennial contender.   The jury is still out on Wojo.   

[Lennys Tap]

Lot of coaches/ex coaches I'd trade Wojo for even up. Tom Crean is not one of them.

[frozena pizza]

It's frustrating sitting here with 4 straight losses and at Seton Hall coming up.  But as of right now I'd still take Wojo over any of the other realistic options.  You have to give him at least one more year before you even consider making a change.

Before this season I thought 9-9 in conference was a realistic expectation and I still think we'll be that or maybe 8-10.  Some people on this board thought we could lose Reinhardt, JJJ and Fischer and replace them with a bunch of 3 star freshmen and somehow be a better team in a loaded conference.  I still like the overall direction and especially what our frontcourt is going to look like next year. 

We need to stay the course and see how things shakeout.  If we can land 1 or 2 impact transfers over the next couple years and keep a good nucleus together we can still be really good.

[skianth16]

Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive.    We know what his ceiling is.   18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs.    Wojo's is still TBD.

I'll take a ceiling of Final Four. No problems there for me.

[Bocephys]

I'll take a ceiling of Final Four. No problems there for me.

Prepare to be yelled at by everyone for even intimating that Marquette Basketball has a "ceiling".

[tower912]

I'll take a ceiling of Final Four. No problems there for me.

I am skeptical another unexpected future NBA HOF'er is Wading through that door.     Having a mere Oladipo isn't enough. 

[MUDPT]

I don't know what Wardle's long term is, but he did win a conference championship in the same conference that current Butler coach LaVall Jordan finished 4-14 in last year.

[Billy Hoyle]

Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive.    We know what his ceiling is.   18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs.    Wojo's is still TBD.

Let's compare situations.  Crean got his first head coaching job took over an MU program in limbo, using an antiquated facility for practice and in a middling conference mixed with basketball powers with no academic standards and a few private schools with actual academic standards. When Crean took over, MU had no local buzz, was drawing about 50% capacity at the BC. And, unlike KO, he had to deal with a resurgent Wisconsin program down the road, and yet he still was able to beat them out for two program changing recruits in Diener and Novak. In three years he had them in the NCAA tournament (and one Steve Logan full cour drive and buzzer beater from a conference title in 2001-02) and in four years to a conference title and in the Final Four, going through the highest possible seeds on the way there.  (14, 6, 2, 1). If not for injuries (including the devastating injury to Diener) he has more NCAA tourney appearances. Even with those struggles he went out and got James, McNeal and Matthews, that set the program up for long term success.  Crean left the MU program in far better shape than he found it. 

He then went to Indiana as they are hit were some of the harshest sanctions levied against a basketball program in years.  He inherited a roster with one returning scorer - a walk-on.  He has very harsh recruiting restrictions too. It's a complete rebuild and then some. He gets a mulligan for his first three seasons. In his fourth year he has them in the Sweet 16, the next year a conference title and another Sweet 16. He takes a somewhat lightly recruited, 3 star 2 guard and develops him into a first-team All-American (sound familiar?). He wins one more conference title in one of the most competitive conferences in the nation, appearing in one more Sweet 16. Note that before those three Sweet 16's Indiana had appeared in one Sweet 16 since 1994 - 10 years earlier.  If not for injuries, including a season ending injury to future first round pick, OG Anuoby, he takes IU to another NCAA tournament.

I know it's chic to engage in revisionist history when it comes to Tom Crean, considering many still act like jilted lovers, but Crean made the modern MU program after KO laid the foundation.  I'd take Crean back in a second IF Wojo were dismissed.

[Its DJOver]

Let's compare situations.  Crean got his first head coaching job took over an MU program in limbo, using an antiquated facility for practice and in a middling conference mixed with basketball powers with no academic standards and a few private schools with actual academic standards. When Crean took over, MU had no local buzz, was drawing about 50% capacity at the BC. And, unlike KO, he had to deal with a resurgent Wisconsin program down the road, and yet he still was able to beat them out for two program changing recruits in Diener and Novak. In three years he had them in the NCAA tournament (and one Steve Logan full cour drive and buzzer beater from a conference title in 2001-02) and in four years to a conference title and in the Final Four, going through the highest possible seeds on the way there.  (14, 6, 2, 1). If not for injuries (including the devastating injury to Diener) he has more NCAA tourney appearances. Even with those struggles he went out and got James, McNeal and Matthews, that set the program up for long term success.  Crean left the MU program in far better shape than he found it. 

He then went to Indiana as they are hit were some of the harshest sanctions levied against a basketball program in years.  He inherited a roster with one returning scorer - a walk-on.  He has very harsh recruiting restrictions too. It's a complete rebuild and then some. He gets a mulligan for his first three seasons. In his fourth year he has them in the Sweet 16, the next year a conference title and another Sweet 16. He takes a somewhat lightly recruited, 3 star 2 guard and develops him into a first-team All-American (sound familiar?). He wins one more conference title in one of the most competitive conferences in the nation, appearing in one more Sweet 16. Note that before those three Sweet 16's Indiana had appeared in one Sweet 16 since 1994 - 10 years earlier.  If not for injuries, including a season ending injury to future first round pick, OG Anuoby, he takes IU to another NCAA tournament.

I know it's chic to engage in revisionist history when it comes to Tom Crean, considering many still act like jilted lovers, but Crean made the modern MU program after KO laid the foundation.  I'd take Crean back in a second IF Wojo were dismissed.

Think you might be missing Crean not making a sweet sixteen in his three years with the best overall recruiting class since Al.  Or Crean banging his head against a brick wall for 40 minutes against Stanford, by not doubling when everyone in the building knew exactly where the ball was gong every time, against a team that didn't have a head coach.  Also consistently getting out coached by whoever was at Wisconsin.  Don't know his record, but can't imagine he has more than 2 wins at he kohl hole.  As much as Wojo deservedly gets criticism for his in game coaching, Crean was worse.

[MU82]

I don't know what Wardle's long term is, but he did win a conference championship in the same conference that current Butler coach LaVall Jordan finished 4-14 in last year.

And Buzz finished 4th (out of 7 teams) in the Sun Belt Cfc West Div while posting a losing overall record in his one season at New Orleans.

Which means ... what?

[GGGG]

Think you might be missing Crean not making a sweet sixteen in his three years with the best overall recruiting class since Al.  Or Crean banging his head against a brick wall for 40 minutes against Stanford, by not doubling when everyone in the building knew exactly where the ball was gong every time, against a team that didn't have a head coach.  Also consistently getting out coached by whoever was at Wisconsin.  Don't know his record, but can't imagine he has more than 2 wins at he kohl hole.  As much as Wojo deservedly gets criticism for his in game coaching, Crean was worse.

Crean was 3-6 v. Wisconsin with only one win (his last year at MU) coming in Madison.

[tower912]

9 years.   190-96.   Marketed the crap out of the program, brought it back from the malaise at the end of Deane's run.    Caught lightning in a bottle with Wade, went to a final 4.    Won one other tournament game in 8 season at MU.     Shepherded the team into the Big East.    Had NBA players Novak, Diener, Matthews and still couldn't win a tournament game.       I appreciate everything that Crean did for MU.    I don't do revisionist history, however.  His record is his record.    Both at MU and at IU.    And there is a reason he is unemployed this year.   

[skianth16]

9 years.   190-96.   Marketed the crap out of the program, brought it back from the malaise at the end of Deane's run.    Caught lightning in a bottle with Wade, went to a final 4.    Won one other tournament game in 8 season at MU.     Shepherded the team into the Big East.    Had NBA players Novak, Diener, Matthews and still couldn't win a tournament game.       I appreciate everything that Crean did for MU.    I don't do revisionist history, however.  His record is his record.    Both at MU and at IU.    And there is a reason he is unemployed this year.

Can we stop acting like Crean didn't help turn his guys into pros? It's not like they just showed up on his doorstep pre-packaged with NBA caliber games. This is the same thing the pro-Wojo crew does with Buzz too. Our past coaches have done some good things and helped turned good players into great players.

Trying to minimize the accomplishments in our past doesn't make our current team or coach any better. We can have good coaches and teams in our past while still having a promising team and coach at the present time.

[tower912]

Can we stop acting like Crean didn't help turn his guys into pros? It's not like they just showed up on his doorstep pre-packaged with NBA caliber games. This is the same thing the pro-Wojo crew does with Buzz too. Our past coaches have done some good things and helped turned good players into great players.

Trying to minimize the accomplishments in our past doesn't make our current team or coach any better. We can have good coaches and teams in our past while still having a promising team and coach at the present time.

I'm not minimizing anything.    I am flat out saying that Crean recruited and developed NBA players.    And won one tournament game without Wade.     I appreciate everything he did.    But it is my honest opinion he, even after 18 years of being a head coach at a high level program, is a significantly better coach than Wojo.     And Buzz kicks both their butts.