Deep Friar thoughts

[Eye]

Not directed at me, but I'll answer that. I expected progress in BE play. It hasn't happened. Barring some strange happenings in the next month, they've regressed.

I also expected better than 0-6 at home against top 60 Ken Pom teams.

[GGGG]

1.  When Sam went out with 2 fouls in the first half everything changed.

Both were really dumb fouls.  And he complained on both, but both were good calls.  He commits too many of those and takes himself out of games.

[GGGG]

Not directed at me, but I'll answer that. I expected progress in BE play. It hasn't happened. Barring some strange happenings in the next month, they've regressed.

I expected them to regress from last year.  Too young.  Too small.  Incomplete.  I said NIT before the year and am expecting that at best.

[1SE]

All of this +1m.  You know, right before last year's win against Nova at home, I was thinking Wojo had 13 months left at MU.  That Nova win got him an extra season.  While it's fun to storm the court, that game probably just cost MU another fruitless season, waiting for Wojo to turn the corner.

79W .. you know what'll happen.  There'll be 18 different excuses as to why next year doesn't work out.   All this talk about 2019 or 20 being special seasons.  I just don't see it.

I like Wojo for a bunch of reasons, but I no longer think he can bring Marquette to a competitive level in the Big East.

This has been my concern all along. Too many people here buy into the Wojo sunk cost fallacy (we can't start the rebuild again...). As soon as one has assessed Wojo's talent as a coach it's time to make the call. It's not about what his ceiling is "once he has his guys", it's about how he coaches with what he has (so maybe that's taking an NIT team and getting it into the NCAA. Maybe that's taking a 13-19 team and turning it to 16-16). And over the past four years, he has done very little with the teams he's had that impress me. In no season have we all thought "Wow, that record really out performed that team". At best it's been "well, that's about how I thought they'd do".
And guess what, most (successful) coaches don't have "all their guys" year in year out anyway. Injuries happen. Transfers happen. If we can't judge Wojo until he has all his guys (which, correct me if I'm wrong, he actually does this year), that goes through the whole season with no injury and no transfer, then we'll be waiting for another 10 years.

Maybe we're going to dig deep and find some resiliency yet this season, but if not I think Eye is right. We have to at least keep our ear to the ground on the coaching carousal. There very well might not be anyone better. But for a University that puts so much riding on its basketball team (let's not kid ourselves, almost ALL of our national exposure is from hoops), the stakes are simply too high not to be strategic.

[4everwarriors]

Gettin' beaten at home on the second go 'round wit da same team ain't a good thin', aina? Gettin' out coached.

[1SE]

Gettin' beaten at home on the second go 'round wit da same team ain't a good thin', aina? Gettin' out coached.

"But they had Bullock!"

[NickelDimer]

MU's not getting their money's worth that's for sure

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I feel like the midgets are drinking too much kool aid. Forget they have a team to use.

This is it. I think a D1 team would be better served with these guys as role players. We can't have guys their size as our number one options.

Theo John and Elliott continue to impress. I love those guys.

[GGGG]

This has been my concern all along. Too many people here buy into the Wojo sunk cost fallacy (we can't start the rebuild again...). As soon as one has assessed Wojo's talent as a coach it's time to make the call. It's not about what his ceiling is "once he has his guys", it's about how he coaches with what he has (so maybe that's taking an NIT team and getting it into the NCAA. Maybe that's taking a 13-19 team and turning it to 16-16). And over the past four years, he has done very little with the teams he's had that impress me. In no season have we all thought "Wow, that record really out performed that team". At best it's been "well, that's about how I thought they'd do".
And guess what, most (successful) coaches don't have "all their guys" year in year out anyway. Injuries happen. Transfers happen. If we can't judge Wojo until he has all his guys (which, correct me if I'm wrong, he actually does this year), that goes through the whole season with no injury and no transfer, then we'll be waiting for another 10 years.

Maybe we're going to dig deep and find some resiliency yet this season, but if not I think Eye is right. We have to at least keep our ear to the ground on the coaching carousal. There very well might not be anyone better. But for a University that puts so much riding on its basketball team (let's not kid ourselves, almost ALL of our national exposure is from hoops), the stakes are simply too high not to be strategic.

That's not happening.

Anyway, it's not a sunk cost fallacy.  I can see an incomplete, inexperienced team that plays hard.  That catches up to them when they get into the BE season.  But next year they will have more experience and more talent.

If MU looks like this again next year, I will be worried.  I'm not thrilled now but at least I understand the reasons.

[1SE]

I expected them to regress from last year.  Too young.  Too small.  Incomplete.  I said NIT before the year and am expecting that at best.

I mean this is really the only defense people can muster for Wojo. "I had really low expectations at the start of the season, and those are being met."

But did you also expect, when Wojo was hired, that we'd be expecting NIT in year 4? Was that on his PowerPoint to the BOT?

"Year 4 = NIT"

[GGGG]

I mean this is really the only defense people can muster for Wojo. "I had really low expectations at the start of the season, and those are being met."

But did you also expect, when Wojo was hired, that we'd be expecting NIT in year 4? Was that on his PowerPoint to the BOT?

"Year 4 = NIT"

No.  But I see a brighter future. 

[mu_hilltopper]

What did you expect this year?

I looked at the pre-season spreadsheet .. I have MU going to the NIT.   

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cgtwJ5tQ86XNkkaHyY_BFS-YqsrzzVkq5pp6Mhpk0WU/edit#gid=2129394686

[willie warrior]

+1,000,000

Rowsey with 4 fouls and you purposely put him in a position where he has to guard a big in the low post one on one.  What was he thinking?  That timeout with 1 minute to go was also a killer.  Lets Providence set the D and eliminates our last one in case we need it.

Rowsey was on a big on several possesions. That is dumb, especially with 4 fouls. Who drew that up?

[1SE]

That's not happening.

Anyway, it's not a sunk cost fallacy.  I can see an incomplete, inexperienced team that plays hard.  That catches up to them when they get into the BE season.  But next year they will have more experience and more talent.

If MU looks like this again next year, I will be worried.  I'm not thrilled now but at least I understand the reasons.

The sunk cost isn't about the team, it's about the coach.

I'm not saying that you (or anyone else) thinks he IS performing below expectations. But if/once you think he is then the sunk cost is hanging on for another year to see what he does with another roster (unless you think that roster will somehow make him a better coach OR that some other coach wouldn't be able to recruit the same caliber roster). Frankly, I haven't seen anything that shows me he can get the most out of his players/teams, and, while I think he's recruited relatively well, I don't think it's out of line for what most any coach could do given the resources of our program and the exposure of the Big East.

[Goose]

There is a reason he never got a HC job prior to MU and it is not because he was waiting for the right job. At the time I was OK with the hire after Shaka bolted, but the clock is ticking for this fan.

[willie warrior]

I mean this is really the only defense people can muster for Wojo. "I had really low expectations at the start of the season, and those are being met."

But did you also expect, when Wojo was hired, that we'd be expecting NIT in year 4? Was that on his PowerPoint to the BOT?

"Year 4 = NIT"

But wait...we will be really good in 2 years...Wojo needs a new 10 year deal...but he is doing everything the admin wants...except winning.

[1SE]

I want a coach that can take NIT talent and get it into the tourney.

I want a coach that can take one-and-done talent and make the S16.

Buzz (for his other flaws, and FTR I'm glad he's gone) was that caliber of coach.  I know there aren't many out there. And the ones that are out there might not want to come to MU. But coaches who get paid what our coach gets paid do that.

If we want a coach that takes NCAA talent and gets it to the NCAA and runs a squeaky clean program, fine. If that's the BOT's call, fine. But we sure as hell could pay a lot less for that program.

[GGGG]

The sunk cost isn't about the team, it's about the coach.

I'm not saying that you (or anyone else) thinks he IS performing below expectations. But if/once you think he is then the sunk cost is hanging on for another year to see what he does with another roster (unless you think that roster will somehow make him a better coach OR that some other coach wouldn't be able to recruit the same caliber roster). Frankly, I haven't seen anything that shows me he can get the most out of his players/teams, and, while I think he's recruited relatively well, I don't think it's out of line for what most any coach could do given the resources of our program and the exposure of the Big East.

I don't think there is much many coaches could do with this roster. 

[Goose]

1SE

Right on!! Spend less and be a middle of the road program. Spend big, you better win big.

[GGGG]

I want a coach that can take NIT talent and get it into the tourney.

I want a coach that can take one-and-done talent and make the S16.

Buzz (for his other flaws, and FTR I'm glad he's gone) was that caliber of coach.  I know there aren't many out there. And the ones that are out there might not want to come to MU. But coaches who get paid what our coach gets paid do that.

If we want a coach that takes NCAA talent and gets it to the NCAA and runs a squeaky clean program, fine. If that's the BOT's call, fine. But we sure as hell could pay a lot less for that program.

When did Buzz take NIT talent to the tournament?  He had multiple players who made the NBA on every single one of his NCAA teams.  He had zero players who made the NBA (so far) on his last MU team - the one that didn't make the post season.

[Dish]

Wojo isn't getting fired after this year. But, as I think about who would be a fit if he was fired, I keep thinking about a guy with a year off to reflect, doing tv, probably learning more about himself in a year off, MU ties to him, veteran coach...

I'll show myself out now.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I like Wojo and I think talk of replacing his is borderline moronic but I do think he could become a little bit more of a task master. Guys need to lose minutes when they continue to make the same poor decisions, no matter what their PPG.

By the way, I thought Doug gotlieb was excellent today.

[1SE]

I don't think there is much many coaches could do with this roster.

Not many, but I'd say most of the ones who are getting paid top-20 money would get this team into the NCAA.

I don't know if you were watching live or the feed, but the call by team at the end was spot on - the trap on Markus all comes down to coaching. And that wasn't even coming out of a time out. Those are well-coached players executing what the coach has taught them to do in a particular game situation.

Us on the other hand? We have a guy who doesn't make a motion on a set play coming directly out of a timeout before the other four guys stand around for 20 seconds. Yes all players make mistakes. But well-coached players make fewer of them.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Wojo isn't getting fired after this year. But, as I think about who would be a fit if he was fired, I keep thinking about a guy with a year off to reflect, doing tv, probably learning more about himself in a year off, MU ties to him, veteran coach...

I'll show myself out now.

Can you ban yourself?

[GGGG]

Not many, but I'd say most of the ones who are getting paid top-20 money would get this team into the NCAA.

I don't know if you were watching live or the feed, but the call by team at the end was spot on - the trap on Markus all comes down to coaching. And that wasn't even coming out of a time out. Those are well-coached players executing what the coach has taught them to do in a particular game situation.

Us on the other hand? We have a guy who doesn't make a motion on a set play coming directly out of a timeout before the other four guys stand around for 20 seconds. Yes all players make mistakes. But well-coached players make fewer of them.

Right. Cooley is a good coach.  But he also has an experienced team.  His top three mpg players, including the two that trapped Howard, are seniors.  Gottlieb mentioned it multiple teams.  You win with old teams in college basketball.