Momma said there'd be days like this

[GooooMarquette]

Regardless of height (how about that?) you can't have 40% of the team on the floor be terrible defenders

Bingo.

[tower912]

Do you remember Jake and Derrick?    They could play defense just fine.    Everybody complained about them.   

I did this on the other board and got no response, so I will try it here. 
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey.    Pretend it says 'Baylor', or 'Boston College', or 'Northwestern'.    Now, all you know about the team this year at one of those three schools is...
-they have 9 scholarship players
-their two starting guards and highest scorers are <6'.
- their roster is made up of 1 senior, 1 junior, 4 sophomores, 3 (outside the top 100) freshmen.

No background.   Not who transferred in or out.     What the coach's reputation is.   
What would you expect that team's record to be in the Big 12/ACC/Big 10?
Please apply the same objective expectations to this team.   

[GooooMarquette]

Now, who is responsible for recruiting and developing defensive talent? Wojo. He's failing in that regard but has been making up for it by being one of the best offensive coaches (if not the best) that we have ever had. The result appears to be a bubble team. We can gnash our teeth as much we want but there is no magic fix that is going to improve our defense without harming our offense midseason. Just be thankful we don't have the opposite problem. At least we are exciting to watch.

In fairness to Wojo, our perimeter defense would likely be better if not for Haanif’s family issue. We certainly wouldn’t be great or even really good at team defense, but he would have helped a lot.

[D'Lo Brown]

Do you remember Jake and Derrick?    They could play defense just fine.    Everybody complained about them.   

I did this on the other board and got no response, so I will try it here. 
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey.    Pretend it says 'Baylor', or 'Boston College', or 'Northwestern'.    Now, all you know about the team this year at one of those three schools is...
-they have 9 scholarship players
-their two starting guards and highest scorers are <6'.
- their roster is made up of 1 senior, 1 junior, 4 sophomores, 3 (outside the top 100) freshmen.

No background.   Not who transferred in or out.     What the coach's reputation is.   
What would you expect that team's record to be in the Big 12/ACC/Big 10?
Please apply the same objective expectations to this team.   

Trying to reason with the trolls, now. Not sure how successful it will be.

[VegasWarrior77]

Just saying... MU's 3 road losses are to teams that are 31-1 at home so far this season.

[Windyplayer]

This is correct. He doesn't get to where he wants to be. When he has his back to the basket, generally speaking he has already decided on putting up a shot regardless of where he gets to and regardless of whether it is a schoolyard brick. We've seen him get manhandled while trying to back his man down and unable to recognize the sub-5% chance of making the shot.

I think it would be a huge weapon if he had the ability to back his man down, recognize it ain't happening, and hit a driver on the run or kick out on the double team. This would be a big development for him and potentially fill a void in the offense currently occupied by Heldt. Heldt has strong decision-making skills and displays the ability to execute these sequences... The only issue is that since he can't even threaten offensive ability, teams don't work too hard to collapse on him or concern themselves. All that said, as of today Heldt is still a far better fit in the overall gameplan than Harry because the team needs strong decision-making offensively, in order to primarily focus on finding a good shot for one of Howard/Rowsey/Hauser.

Harry has a relatively smooth looking offensive game on TV but it doesn't functionally add up to much today.

I can distinctly remember two plays where Froling starts outside the paint and backs his way into the paint against a defender bigger or equal in size with rather decent control and puts up a high-percentage shot. Other times, it does not work out as well. Point being, he's capable. He needs to keep working on it in games. Heldt is a complete liability out there - yes, I'm sure he's smart, but so is Einstein and he would not have been a capable 5 on a D1 program (at least, I don't think). As we have always said, Heldt is a serviceable back-up to spell the starter/second string for 5-10 minutes per game. To say that Heldt is better out there because of his "strong decision making skills" is just wrong unless those skills have a substantive impact on the game. We have seen time and again that they do not. You MUST roll with Froling to relieve pressure off the big 3 and hope that he continues to develop.

And obviously nothing personal with Matt - strictly basketball related.

[D'Lo Brown]

I can distinctly remember two plays where Froling starts outside the paint and backs his way into the paint against a defender bigger or equal in size with rather decent control and puts up a high-percentage shot. Other times, it does not work out as well. Point being, he's capable. He needs to keep working on it in games. Heldt is a complete liability out there - yes, I'm sure he's smart, but so is Einstein and he would not have been a capable 5 on a D1 program (at least, I don't think). As we have always said, Heldt is a serviceable back-up to spell the starter/second string for 5-10 minutes per game. To say that Heldt is better out there because of his "strong decision making skills" is just wrong unless those skills have a substantive impact on the game. We have seen time and again that they do not. You MUST roll with Froling to relieve pressure off the big 3 and hope that he continues to develop.

And obviously nothing personal with Matt - strictly basketball related.

Not quite sure how they must roll with Froling, seems a little drastic. IDK about it being personal.

The obvious point I was trying to make was that the big 3 are, on balance, incredibly talented offensively, heads and shoulders above all other players on the team,  and that they account for the vast majority of our points. Like it or not, when they are all on the floor, you don't really want bad shots by bad offensive players taking valuable opportunities away from those 3. Note: Harry is shooting 37% from the floor and 13% from 3. Many of those 3s were wide open looks.

If Froling could focus on only taking higher percentage shots and facilitating instead of forcing a shot on extreme low percentage shots, he'd be an upgrade over Heldt. We all agree on that I think. That's why I say that decision-making is the difference between the two, offensively.

Look at it this way: Matt Heldt could probably shoot 13% from 3. But he knows better and he focuses on things besides scoring.

I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.

[Windyplayer]

Not quite sure how they must roll with Froling, seems a little drastic. IDK about it being personal.

The obvious point I was trying to make was that the big 3 are, on balance, incredibly talented offensively, heads and shoulders above all other players on the team,  and that they account for the vast majority of our points. Like it or not, when they are all on the floor, you don't really want bad shots by bad offensive players taking valuable opportunities away from those 3. Note: Harry is shooting 37% from the floor and 13% from 3. Many of those 3s were wide open looks.

If Froling could focus on only taking higher percentage shots and facilitating instead of forcing a shot on extreme low percentage shots, he'd be an upgrade over Heldt. We all agree on that I think. That's why I say that decision-making is the difference between the two, offensively.

Look at it this way: Matt Heldt could probably shoot 13% from 3. But he knows better and he focuses on things besides scoring.

I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.

IDK about your IDK.

I don't think the rare instances of Froling taking a shot at this point in his career outweigh the pressure, I believe, he takes off the big three by being on the court, and that is only going to improve as he gets more run (again, I believe). Heldt is at his ceiling. Let's just see where Froling's is. 

[Windyplayer]

I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.

Yes, yes it is. Woof.

[1SE]

I'm not hung up or gave it a thought. That said, you would think with 9 days of preparation they would put up a fight.

Yeah, not necessarily hung up. But you would  just hope that 9 days would have been ample time to come up with a game plan that could be executed in their sleep that doesn't lead to 51 first half points. I mean WTF were they doing in practice for the past nine days?

[tower912]

Trying to reason with the trolls, now. Not sure how successful it will be.

Very few are trolls.    Many, if not most, are passionate MU fans who want so badly for MU to be great that they sometimes struggle with objectivity and perspective.   Which is the nature of fandom.    All I am asking is to look at the make up of the roster without bias.   To remember a few years ago when we had a backcourt that was solid defensively but somehow still angered many.    Don't lose your mind when this team gets rolled by a top 10 team in their building.    This is not a final 4 team, barring an insane run.    Make the dance this year.    Build on it.   

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Do you remember Jake and Derrick?    They could play defense just fine.    Everybody complained about them.   

I didn’t realize a player that can play both defense and offense is mutually exclusive. 

[Herman Cain]

Not quite sure how they must roll with Froling, seems a little drastic. IDK about it being personal.

The obvious point I was trying to make was that the big 3 are, on balance, incredibly talented offensively, heads and shoulders above all other players on the team,  and that they account for the vast majority of our points. Like it or not, when they are all on the floor, you don't really want bad shots by bad offensive players taking valuable opportunities away from those 3. Note: Harry is shooting 37% from the floor and 13% from 3. Many of those 3s were wide open looks.

If Froling could focus on only taking higher percentage shots and facilitating instead of forcing a shot on extreme low percentage shots, he'd be an upgrade over Heldt. We all agree on that I think. That's why I say that decision-making is the difference between the two, offensively.

Look at it this way: Matt Heldt could probably shoot 13% from 3. But he knows better and he focuses on things besides scoring.

I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.

With respect to Froling, You have outlined it well. This is the Big East and every possession is a battle. We need as much effectiveness from each position as possible to continue to compete well.

that said, I believe Froling adds value to the team in that he has a real nose for rebounds. That rebounding prowess is a skill that can't be taught. In addition Harry has some skills passing. With respect to this year ,and Mr. Froling, we have to build off of those skills. Matt and Theo have different skills and we build of off those skills as well. This year ,between the 3 young men, we can deliver competent play at the Center position.

[D'Lo Brown]

With respect to Froling, You have outlined it well. This is the Big East and every possession is a battle. We need as much effectiveness from each position as possible to continue to compete well.

that said, I believe Froling adds value to the team in that he has a real nose for rebounds. That rebounding prowess is a skill that can't be taught. In addition Harry has some skills passing. With respect to this year ,and Mr. Froling, we have to build off of those skills. Matt and Theo have different skills and we build of off those skills as well. This year ,between the 3 young men, we can deliver competent play at the Center position.

Agree, one of the best rebounders we've had recently and I think there's reason to be hopeful for his future. A lot of big guys can't do what he's capable of, he could be a real curveball.

IDK about your IDK.

I don't think the rare instances of Froling taking a shot at this point in his career outweigh the pressure, I believe, he takes off the big three by being on the court, and that is only going to improve as he gets more run (again, I believe). Heldt is at his ceiling. Let's just see where Froling's is. 

Rare instance? Froling's usage % is higher than Sam Hauser's.

[GoldenDieners32]

i know that harry went 1-3 from 3 but instead of him shooting the ball outside the 3 point line i rather have him swing it or look to drive, hes 2-15 on the season from 3 and he does have a nice ball fake. im just saying i rather see him look to drive, pass , and if those aren't open look for the 3 ball

[MU82]

Don't lose your mind when this team gets rolled by a top 10 team in their building. THIS This is not a final 4 team, barring an insane run. THIS Make the dance this year. THIS Build on it. AND THIS

[tower912]

I didn’t realize a player that can play both defense and offense is mutually exclusive.

It's not always.  It seems to be in this particular case.  Which back court would you rather have?     Derrick and Jake or Andrew and Markus.     

Do you remember that there was a contingent that was irate that Buzz didn't give more time to JjJ and Deonte even though neither could play defense as a freshman?     Do you remember that some wanted Dawson to get more minutes?     Do you remember when some were furious about Blue getting as many minutes as he did when he couldn't shoot as a freshman, when Buzz rewarded defense?

The common theme?    The coach is dumb for playing the people he is for the reasons he does.     Rowsey and Howard are not good one on one defenders.    However, to bench them means to force feed minutes to freshmen and to take one of the top scorers in the big east off the floor.     

[The Lens]

Do you remember Jake and Derrick?    They could play defense just fine.    Everybody complained about them.   

I did this on the other board and got no response, so I will try it here. 
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey.    Pretend it says 'Baylor', or 'Boston College', or 'Northwestern'.    Now, all you know about the team this year at one of those three schools is...
-they have 9 scholarship players
-their two starting guards and highest scorers are <6'.
- their roster is made up of 1 senior, 1 junior, 4 sophomores, 3 (outside the top 100) freshmen.

No background.   Not who transferred in or out.     What the coach's reputation is.   
What would you expect that team's record to be in the Big 12/ACC/Big 10?
Please apply the same objective expectations to this team.   

Every fanbase is going to expect more of their own.  That being said, I occasionally look at the ACC standings to see how Danny Manning is doing.  Back in the day, I would keep tabs on Mizzou / Quinn Snyder vs. TC. 

But more than anything else, it's Year 4.  I'm actually quite shocked at the lack of substantive progress.  I get the horses are coming but Tom Crean took a Mike Deane program to the Final Four in year 4.  I mean if Tom Crean can do that...

[BM1090]

Every fanbase is going to expect more of their own.  That being said, I occasionally look at the ACC standings to see how Danny Manning is doing.  Back in the day, I would keep tabs on Mizzou / Quinn Snyder vs. TC. 

But more than anything else, it's Year 4.  I'm actually quite shocked at the lack of substantive progress.  I get the horses are coming but Tom Crean took a Mike Deane program to the Final Four in year 4.  I mean if Tom Crean can do that...

And then missed the tournament the two following years. We've improved every year under Wojo. We're probably better this year than last year despite graduating KR, LF, JJ, and losing HC and DW. We lost 5 contributors to last year's team and have 9 scholarship players, and we're as good as last year. Maybe the improvement isn't happening as quick as everyone would like, but it's there and still trending upwards.

[GGGG]

Every fanbase is going to expect more of their own.  That being said, I occasionally look at the ACC standings to see how Danny Manning is doing.  Back in the day, I would keep tabs on Mizzou / Quinn Snyder vs. TC. 

But more than anything else, it's Year 4.  I'm actually quite shocked at the lack of substantive progress.  I get the horses are coming but Tom Crean took a Mike Deane program to the Final Four in year 4.  I mean if Tom Crean can do that...

Why do people think that Crean is a bad coach?  Regardless, the big reason he got to the Final Four is because he landed the best damn player in program history.

[The Lens]

And then missed the tournament the two following years. We've improved every year under Wojo. We're probably better this year than last year despite graduating KR, LF, JJ, and losing HC and DW. We lost 5 contributors to last year's team and have 9 scholarship players, and we're as good as last year. Maybe the improvement isn't happening as quick as everyone would like, but it's there and still trending upwards.

The fact that I'm citing TC as a measurement of progress should tell you exactly where we are.

[mu03eng]

The fact that I'm citing TC as a measurement of progress should tell you exactly where we are.

I don't get this, what standard of measurement are applying to Wojo that sets him behind TC or Buzz when you adjust based on the cupboard for each coach and the landscape(conference, basketball environment, etc)?

[The Lens]

I don't get this, what standard of measurement are applying to Wojo that sets him behind TC or Buzz when you adjust based on the cupboard for each coach and the landscape(conference, basketball environment, etc)?

I'll never understand the cupboard storyline. 

Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits.  That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'll never understand the cupboard storyline. 

Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits.  That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.

And how many of those were actually good enough to actually be one of the top 100 players in their class? And which coach brought in the ones that were? I got 3 for Wojo (Sam, M2N, Katin), and 1 for Buzz (Luke). I got four who weren't (JJJ, Duane, Haanif, Sandy). Who was the 9th?

But the argument really stems from the reality that Wojo took over a team that went 17-15, missed not only the tournament but also the NIT, lost 5 out of 6 of the players who led the team in minutes (and the one they kept was Derrick Wilson), had the former coach poach half the incoming recruiting class, and had 1/2 of the other players decommit (and it was the good one of the two).

Knowing all that, how could you say the cupboard wasn't bare?

[mu03eng]

I'll never understand the cupboard storyline. 

Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits.  That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.

First, recruiting services are notoriously off.

Second, pure talent is necessarily the differentiator....experience matters. See the chart below of KenPom experience rankings for years 2013-2018 for the teams you highlighted. Marquette is the bright red line that in the last 3 years has been universally the least experienced team in the league. The last time they were experienced? Wojo's first year when we had what was left of the Buzz team where I think there is no question that 2014 and 2015 lacked talent. Definition of cupboard bare. Wojo has been trying to fill those holes since.

Next year this chart looks considerably better as we'll have a ton of talent returning AND talent coming in.