At what point...

[Daniel]

I think Wojo figured it out late.  Cain, Elliott and John will be very good defensively.

Agreed. I said same thing elsewhere. I think Wojo went with Duke finesse first, saw the Big East up close, and started switching bringing in our three freshmen who are defensively oriented.  Couple more years or next?

[Room510]

Honest Question - What was the difference between the good defensive game vs Seton Hall and the poor one at Butler ?  I think it  MU played the same defensive scheme.  Was it poor execution by MU, better scheme by Butler, better personnel for Butler ?

[GGGG]

Honest Question - What was the difference between the good defensive game vs Seton Hall and the poor one at Butler ?  I think it  MU played the same defensive scheme.  Was it poor execution by MU, better scheme by Butler, better personnel for Butler ?

I think Butler attacked it better.  wades mentioned it earlier, but they picked to create mismatches. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree with others that it is a mostly a personnel issue. But I don't think its youth and size (though those certainly doesn't help) Rowdy and M2N are just horrible on ball defenders. Like two of the worst we have seen in a Marquette uniform, specifically Markus. The rest of our team isn't nearly good enough defensively to compensate for the two of them. Markus is to defense what Derrick Wilson was to offense, he makes the rest of his teammates worse simply by being on the floor.

But the reality is that the offense provided by Rowdy and Howard is worth significantly more than what they take away on the defensive end. As a result, we are going to be a high offense no defense run and gun squad. We could run a pack line or a zone and it would improve our defense but it would harm our offense more. We may not like it but trying to outscore the opponent is the best way to win with this roster. Which at least is a lot more fun to watch than the opposite.

Honest Question - What was the difference between the good defensive game vs Seton Hall and the poor one at Butler ?  I think it  MU played the same defensive scheme.  Was it poor execution by MU, better scheme by Butler, better personnel for Butler ?

This is a good question. As others have said, Butler attacked it much better than Seton Hall did. And there did seem to be a lot of communication errors based on how much Sam was yelling. The main thing is we didn't force nearly enough turnovers. My eye test tells me that we ran a lot more junk defense against Seton Hall and were able to confuse them into turnovers. We played a lot more of our base defense against Butler and when we pressed it was only token pressure. Not sure if that was the result of gameplanning or poor execution.

Another factor, only a small one is the refs in the Butler game called it differently than the Hall refs did. Certainly not the deciding factor in either game but I think we got a majority of the 50-50 calls against Hall and Butler got a majority of them last night.

[Stretchdeltsig]

I don't agree with that at all.  That team had seven players who averaged 10+ per game.  (This one has three.) 

That team shot just as good from the 3 as this one does, but it also had multiple players who could put the ball on the floor and score. 

And while I like Sam, Lazar was a very efficient, high usage player as a senior.  Sam isn't at that level yet.

False news.

[bilsu]

Honest Question - What was the difference between the good defensive game vs Seton Hall and the poor one at Butler ?  I think it  MU played the same defensive scheme.  Was it poor execution by MU, better scheme by Butler, better personnel for Butler ?

Seton Hall was the difference. They were never mentally into the game. Butler was ready to play from the start. Martin was also  having a great game, which made our defense look really bad. I not sure there was much any team could of done to stop Martin last night.

[GGGG]

False news.

You think that sophomore Sam is better than senior Lazar???

[Lennys Tap]

Hauser is every bit the player Lazar or Jimmy was.  Hauser is a VERY good defender, and elite offensively. 

Sam is an elite shooter, not an elite offensive player. OK defender, but he looks better than he is compared to his teammates.Nowhere near JFB level. Right now, no way he's near the player Lazar or Jimmy was.

[Floorslapper]

Sam is an elite shooter, not an elite offensive player. OK defender, but he looks better than he is compared to his teammates.Nowhere near JFB level. Right now, no way he's near the player Lazar or Jimmy was.

JFB was marginal (at best) as an offensive player at MU, during his entire time at MU.  Sam showed against Butler he is an Elite offensive player.  The way he took advantage of mismatches on the low block was beautiful, efficient, and productive.  He's an elite 3-ball shooter.  JFB's one elite quality while at MU offensively was drawing fouls and getting to the line.

Sam may never be the NBA player JFB has evolved into, because he simply will never be able to jump as high, and be as athletic as JFB - but Sam is a tremendously effective, efficient, and talented college ballpayer.

Mo and Cooby were nowhere near the offensive talents Rowsey and Howard are  (nor were they supreme defenders) - which makes my point:  How could Buzz get that team to 55th nationally defensively, and into the NCAA, while this year's team looks to be a bubble team?  #coachingmatters.

[GGGG]

JFB was marginal (at best) as an offensive player at MU, during his entire time at MU.  Sam showed against Butler he is an Elite offensive player.  The way he took advantage of mismatches on the low block was beautiful, efficient, and productive.  He's an elite 3-ball shooter.  JFB's one elite quality while at MU offensively was drawing fouls and getting to the line.

Sam may never be the NBA player JFB has evolved into, because he simply will never be able to jump as high, and be as athletic as JFB - but Sam is a tremendously effective, efficient, and talented college ballpayer.

Mo and Cooby were nowhere near the offensive talents Rowsey and Howard are  (nor were they supreme defenders) - which makes my point:  How could Buzz get that team to 55th nationally defensively, and into the NCAA, while this year's team looks to be a bubble team?  #coachingmatters.

Jimmy's OR at MU his last two years:  135 and 126.  Really, you have to be smarter than this.

And again, the 2008-09 team was just as good a 3 point shooting team and this year's team is.

[Stretchdeltsig]

You think that sophomore Sam is better than senior Lazar???

I know that sophomore Sam is better than sophomore Lazar.
Sam is very, very good.  Please don t under estimate him or his value to this team.

[GGGG]

I know that sophomore Sam is better than sophomore Lazar.
Sam is very, very good.  Please don t under estimate him or his value to this team.

I'm certainly not under estimating him.  But the entire discussion was comparing this team to Lazar's senior year team.

[1SE]

You can't teach length and you can't teach size, but most of D is coaching. I'd love some advanced stats on the midgets when playing together/playing apart. Of course they both need to be on the floor as much as possible, but giving them 60 min total (distribution depending on who is on) means you'd only have to have them together for 10 minutes - and you can have Theo and Cain out there then.

It is what it is, but just feels like we're wasting so much potential with these offenses the past two years. If we could just figure out a way to cobble together a 60th percentile high-major D (so 75ish kenpom?) we'd probably be hoping for the S16 rather than just squeaking into the tourney.

[THRILLHO]

I'm certainly not under estimating him.  But the entire discussion was comparing this team to Lazar's senior year team.

The midget team is a good comparison because of their shooting ability, small guards, and yet superior defense. They were also very bad at defensive 2p% (thought not as bad, only 263rd compared to 317th this year), but overall defensive efficiency was good enough because they forced a lot of turnovers. My recollection is that a lot of this was Lazar stripping entry passes against bigger players - he was 88th in steal%. Then to compare Lazar and Sam, it doesn't really matter whether Sam is "better" or whatever, but Lazar was better at steals, Sam plays excellent face up, team defense. For this team, the face up team defense only helps so much because they eventually move the ball and find the weak link. Incidentally, IMO this is also one of the biggest things the freshman offer -- the length and quickness to make steals, as well as the fact that if they pick up foul trouble early going for steals it's not as big of a deal on the other end.

[Floorslapper]

Jimmy's OR at MU his last two years:  135 and 126.  Really, you have to be smarter than this.

And again, the 2008-09 team was just as good a 3 point shooting team and this year's team is.

I stand corrected.  Saying Jimmy was a marginal offensive player at MU was an understatement/inaccurate.  He was very effective and efficient, much like Sam - just in different ways - Jimmy by getting to the FT Line at an extraordinary rate, and getting a lot of 2pt FGs.  Sam, of course gets a ton from 3pt FG.

According to Pomeroy Jimmy's OR as a Senior was 121.2, and his Junior year a 128.5 on 21.4 and 20.6% usage.  Jimmy's eFG as a Junior was 55.9% and 51.6% as a senior.

Sam's O-Rating at present is 135.2 (8th in the country), on 18.2% usage, with an eFG of 65.7%

End of the day, the midgets team of Buzz, and this year's team are strikingly similar - both shoot 41% from 3 point line, although this year's team shoots the 3 with much more frequency 47% of all field goal attempts whereas the midgets team shots 3's 35% of FGA.

The big difference of course is that the midgets team was significantly better defensively - and it didn't even have an option to play a big.  In my view Buzz simply did a better job coaching that team up defensively, than is Wojo doing with our team this year.

[The Lens]

You can't teach length and you can't teach size, but most of D is coaching. I'd love some advanced stats on the midgets when playing together/playing apart. Of course they both need to be on the floor as much as possible, but giving them 60 min total (distribution depending on who is on) means you'd only have to have them together for 10 minutes - and you can have Theo and Cain out there then.

It is what it is, but just feels like we're wasting so much potential with these offenses the past two years. If we could just figure out a way to cobble together a 60th percentile high-major D (so 75ish kenpom?) we'd probably be hoping for the S16 rather than just squeaking into the tourney.

This. All of this.

[GGGG]

The big difference of course is that the midgets team was significantly better defensively - and it didn't even have an option to play a big.  In my view Buzz simply did a better job coaching that team up defensively, than is Wojo doing with our team this year.

I agree.  Buzz is a better coach than Wojo is right now.  But I also wouldn't minimize the role that two future NBA first round draft picks played defensively. 

[Nukem2]

I digress here.  The real reason for the better defense is that that team had far quicker/experienced personnel along with guys that have sniffed the NBA ....  Butler, Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Cooby , Acker and the healthiest Joe Fulce we were able to see. 

[Floorslapper]

I digress here.  The real reason for the better defense is that that team had far quicker/experienced personnel along with guys that have sniffed the NBA ....  Butler, Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Cooby , Acker and the healthiest Joe Fulce we were able to see.

Solid point.  However, I think we will see all of Rowsey, Howard and Hauser sniff the NBA.  Not to mention Sacar is a very good athlete, who essentially is a Junior, Rowsey a 5th year Senior.  Wojo also has at his disposal all of Heldt, Theo, and Froling.  That midgets team was 7 guys total.  None over 6'6".

[brewcity77]

Another big difference in terms of the defense between the midgets and this team was the pace of play. The midgets played at the slowest pace any Marquette team has played in ages. I believe that helped keep them fresh. They played slow and virtually never turned the ball over, which limited transition baskets and allowed them to be rested come the end stages of games. Our tempo on offense allows more transition.

Yes, there was definitely a difference on the interior as Hayward and Butler were better defenders than anyone we have on this team currently, but I think guys had more energy to expend on the defensive wide as well in 2010.

[Nukem2]

Solid point.  However, I think we will see all of Rowsey, Howard and Hauser sniff the NBA.  Not to mention Sacar is a very good athlete, who essentially is a Junior, Rowsey a 5th year Senior.  Wojo also has at his disposal all of Heldt, Theo, and Froling.  That midgets team was 7 guys total.  None over 6'6".

But, those guys will not sniff the NBA for their quickness or defense (which is the topic here).

[Dr. Blackheart]

No one has used New Age Defense except for you - it's actually a scheme very similar to what Buzz used.

Buzz's defense is not at that similar...maybe with the high hedging but he would always keep the paint covered when he did it (you know, to limit the paint touches). 
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/01/defense-issue-guest-column.html

I have been told on here the New Age Defense of building a defense from the outside-in is the new norm so I should adjust my thinking, like the GS Warriors.  Yet, none of the top defenses in Pomeroy actually play it.  <shoulder shrug>

Giving up 60 PIP to Bulter plus 12 made free throws, is insanity.  Especially after the Seton Hall game where we limited the paint and held them to their worst offensive game in conference by protecting the paint. Bad scheme.

[tower912]

Different offense, home team versus team on their second  road game in a row.  There are clearly defensive issues.   But there are many factors to consider.

[Nukem2]

Different offense, home team versus team on their second  road game in a row.  There are clearly defensive issues.   But there are many factors to consider.

Big difference is that SHU, like Bucky, has an offense more focused on a center (DelGado and Happ for Bucky).  Easier for MU to defend?

[tower912]

SH ran more post up, less pick and roll.