Creighton/Gonzaga Home and Home - BE Trial?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules don't allow a program to house it's basketball in one conference and it's non-revenue sports in another. The only sport that is allowed to do that is football. The only exception is if the conference doesn't offer a certain sport. If we took on Gonzaga, it would be for all sports. I just don't if the financial burden of that is as impassible of a barrier as people think. Gonzaga would bear the brunt of that cost and the jump in income from WCC to BE is a steep one.

[StillAWarrior]

Exactly, the problem is not men's basketball.  It is all the other non-revenue sports.  Those sports tend to hit several road match ups in one trip.  Not sure what the total increased cost would be for a athletic dept, but it would not be cheap.

In volleyball, Georgetown tends to schedule its BE road trips in pairs.  Marquette/DePaul and Butler/Cincinnati are always paired.  This past year, SJU, SH and Villanova were scheduled as stand-alone trips (although in the past they typically link two of them).  And, for some unknown reason, Creighton and Providence are often paired.  That trip absolutely kicked my daughter's butt this year -- a very long weekend.  I honestly can't imagine throwing a Spokane trip in there.  The only way that GU to the BE is potentially viable is as MBB-only.

[GGGG]

That's what I find tough to reconcile. Will the WCC let them keep other sports there after taking the league's cash cow away? Would the Mountain West, Big Sky, or any other western conference have interest in Gonzaga without basketball?

I don't believe that schools can be an associate member of a conference for one sport if their primary conference also offers that sport.  So I don't think that the Zags could join the BE for basketball and park their other programs in a different conference.

My recollection is that this came up when San Diego State and Boise State were going to join the BE as football only members, they had to move their other programs into the Big West and WAC respectively since they are non-football conferences.

[StillAWarrior]

I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules don't allow a program to house it's basketball in one conference and it's non-revenue sports in another. The only sport that is allowed to do that is football. The only exception is if the conference doesn't offer a certain sport. If we took on Gonzaga, it would be for all sports. I just don't if the financial burden of that is as impassible of a barrier as people think. Gonzaga would bear the brunt of that cost and the jump in income from WCC to BE is a steep one.

I think you underestimate how closely a lot of BE schools watch their budgets in other sports.  Hell, even adding another team -- any other team -- that would require another road trip would hit some programs pretty hard.

[GGGG]

I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules don't allow a program to house it's basketball in one conference and it's non-revenue sports in another. The only sport that is allowed to do that is football. The only exception is if the conference doesn't offer a certain sport. If we took on Gonzaga, it would be for all sports. I just don't if the financial burden of that is as impassible of a barrier as people think. Gonzaga would bear the brunt of that cost and the jump in income from WCC to BE is a steep one.

Sorry TAMU, I didn't see this post.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think you underestimate how closely a lot of BE schools watch their budgets in other sports.  Hell, even adding another team -- any other team -- that would require another road trip would hit some programs pretty hard.

My point is that you only add Gonzaga if it make financial sense for the conference. I think at a certain point it would.

[SaveOD238]

Their recruiting could easily mimic Pitt moving to the ACC.  Pitt recruited the northeast heavily but has struggled in a mostly southern conference.  Now imagine the same about Gonzaga trying to recruit the west in an eastern & midwest conference.  The downside is significant.

I think it's also important to remember that Gonzaga recruits internationally better than a lot of other programs.  There's pretty much a line straight from Sydney to Spokane, and European players flock there.

Gonzaga's current roster includes
4- international players (France x2, Denmark, Japan)
7- West Coast (if you count Colorado and Utah as West Coast)
3- Mid-west (Chicago is furthest East)
0- East coast

Of three committed recruits 2 are West Coast and 1 is (I think) an international playing at Monteverde in FL.

Those European guys might appreciate playing a little closer to home. Copenhagen to NYC is a lot easier for mom and dad than Copenhagen to Spokane or even LA.

I've always said that Gonzaga needs a partner though for travel, scheduling, and recruiting reasons.  St. Mary's is the obvious choice.  Imagine getting a Big East foot-in-the-door of that sweet California recruiting hotbed.

[muwarrior69]

How many fans would Gonzaga/St. Marys bring to the Garden for the BET. Not many I would think.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How many fans would Gonzaga/St. Marys bring to the Garden for the BET. Not many I would think.

Don't know about St. Mary's, but Gonzaga travels extremely well

[wadesworld]

I think it's also important to remember that Gonzaga recruits internationally better than a lot of other programs.  There's pretty much a line straight from Sydney to Spokane, and European players flock there.

Gonzaga's current roster includes
4- international players (France x2, Denmark, Japan)
7- West Coast (if you count Colorado and Utah as West Coast)
3- Mid-west (Chicago is furthest East)
0- East coast

Of three committed recruits 2 are West Coast and 1 is (I think) an international playing at Monteverde in FL.

Those European guys might appreciate playing a little closer to home. Copenhagen to NYC is a lot easier for mom and dad than Copenhagen to Spokane or even LA.

I've always said that Gonzaga needs a partner though for travel, scheduling, and recruiting reasons.  St. Mary's is the obvious choice.  Imagine getting a Big East foot-in-the-door of that sweet California recruiting hotbed.

That would be the reason I don't think it ever happens.  St. Mary's would not be a logical travel partner for Gonzaga.  You still have a 2+ hour flight from Spokane to Oakland (which it looks like is where you would most likely fly in for a game at St. Mary's).  That's essentially just another road trip, not really a travel partner.

[muwarrior69]

Perhaps the best solution would be for the WCC and Big East to form some sort of a partnership where they schedule 2 to 4 games each year just for MBB. That way they are still both separate conferences with their own tournaments and their non revenue sports would not be affected by all the travel and expense that would ensue. I think I would rather play even some of the weaker WCC teams than the "cup cakes" we schedule and we would get some real away games on the schedule. It could even expand the recruiting base for both leagues.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Perhaps the best solution would be for the WCC and Big East to form some sort of a partnership where they schedule 2 to 4 games each year just for MBB. That way they are still both separate conferences with their own tournaments and their non revenue sports would not be affected by all the travel and expense that would ensue. I think I would rather play even some of the weaker WCC teams than the "cup cakes" we schedule and we would get some real away games on the schedule. It could even expand the recruiting base for both leagues.

There is a lot of merit to this idea. East coast vs. west coast non-conference showdown.

[GGGG]

I do not want to see multiple WCC teams on Marquette's schedule every year.  It's a one or two bid conference.  Marquette and other BE teams aren't giving up home games for the WCC.

[mug644]

I doubt ADs/coaches would want to give up that much out of conference scheduling authority. Programs like to adjust their schedules to what's going on with their teams...try to a good home-away series, schedule a game near a player's hometown, have more cupcakes if the team is young...

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

How many fans would Gonzaga/St. Marys bring to the Garden for the BET. Not many I would think.

Gonzaga probably had 15-20% of the garden last night

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I do not want to see multiple WCC teams on Marquette's schedule every year.  It's a one or two bid conference.  Marquette and other BE teams aren't giving up home games for the WCC.

Probably not. I wouldn't mind it as a fan as long as were sacrificing the likes of Chicago State/American from our schedule rather than Georgia/Vermont to make room for it. I don't know all the economics that go into making a non-conference schedule.

If it did happen, we would need to make sure that Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU participated every year (if only some of the schools participated). It's a steep drop off in talent after that.

[SaveOD238]

Probably not. I wouldn't mind it as a fan as long as were sacrificing the likes of Chicago State/American from our schedule rather than Georgia/Vermont to make room for it. I don't know all the economics that go into making a non-conference schedule.

If it did happen, we would need to make sure that Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU participated every year (if only some of the schools participated). It's a steep drop off in talent after that.

Yikes!  That's not pretty.  According to kenpom there are 3 top 100 teams and and then a bunch in the low 100s and 200s. 
13- Gonzaga
32- St. Mary
70- BYU
160- San Diego
173- San Francisco
202- Santa Clara
222- LMU
229- Pacific
296- Pepperdine
310- Portland

Then again, our non-conference slate includes MSM (294), NIU (245), EIU (210), and American (289), so swapping out one of those for, say, Loyola Marymount isn't so bad. 

[StillAWarrior]

That would be the reason I don't think it ever happens.  St. Mary's would not be a logical travel partner for Gonzaga.  You still have a 2+ hour flight from Spokane to Oakland (which it looks like is where you would most likely fly in for a game at St. Mary's).  That's essentially just another road trip, not really a travel partner.

I was going to say the same thing.  The trip from Spokane to Oakland is longer than most of the travel between the current Big East teams.  It's a longer trip than any of Xavier's conference road games.

From a purely geographical "travel partner" standpoint, Seattle or Portland would be more attractive.  But they obviously don't bring as much to the table -- at least from a MBB perspective -- as St. Mary's.  I know very little about their other sports.

[StillAWarrior]

Yikes!  That's not pretty.  According to kenpom there are 3 top 100 teams and and then a bunch in the low 100s and 200s. 
13- Gonzaga
32- St. Mary
70- BYU
160- San Diego
173- San Francisco
202- Santa Clara
222- LMU
229- Pacific
296- Pepperdine
310- Portland

Then again, our non-conference slate includes MSM (294), NIU (245), EIU (210), and American (289), so swapping out one of those for, say, Loyola Marymount isn't so bad.

The key difference, of course, is we're not traveling to MSM, NIU, EIU or American.

[jsglow]

Perhaps the best solution would be for the WCC and Big East to form some sort of a partnership where they schedule 2 to 4 games each year just for MBB. That way they are still both separate conferences with their own tournaments and their non revenue sports would not be affected by all the travel and expense that would ensue. I think I would rather play even some of the weaker WCC teams than the "cup cakes" we schedule and we would get some real away games on the schedule. It could even expand the recruiting base for both leagues.

NO CHANCE.  MU and the rest of the BEast is NOT giving up home dates to do a double H/H with the mid-major WCC.  When we schedule H/H, it is with Power 6 conference opponents only.  We also play in the Gavitt Games against the B-10 in what amounts to an alternating H/H.  Doing a WCC H/H would be in some ways worse than doing a straight up H/H against UW-GB, Bradley or IL State because of the airfare and travel involved.  C'Mon man!

[Benny B]

Frankly, I believe the conversation has already taken place regarding the conditions on which Gonzaga would be considered for Big East membership.  Nevertheless, if Gonzaga were to be admitted, it will probably require some combination of the following:

1) University of Denver must be admitted as a full member (which would come with its own set of criteria).
2) A commitment to add women's lacrosse and/or field hockey and men's lacrosse.
3) Some sort of travel subsidy for the 5 "east coast" schools (e.g. the marginal difference between travel to Omaha and Spokane).*
4) A long-term media rights agreement.
5) Spokane does not host a conference championship in any sport for the first X years of membership.
6) All of these conditions go away when the Big East adds two/four more teams west of the Mississippi (to get to 14/16 and create east and west divisions).

* This is probably a lot less than people might think, but could come in the form of reduced or disproportionate distribution of earned NCAA tournament shares, i.e. if the rest of the BE keeps 50% of their shares and 50% are distributed equally to all conference members, Gonzaga might get to keep 40% of theirs.

Personally, I think #1 is key and would make both DU and GU a no-brainer if DU made a serious commitment to basketball.  Regardless, #6 has to be part of the long term plan.  In other words, the Big East does not add Gonzaga as a one-off expansion... Gonzaga is added with the intent of a full-blown expansion of the Big East into the Western U.S. (in which case, WTF do you name the conference?).

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

NO CHANCE.  MU and the rest of the BEast is NOT giving up home dates to do a double H/H with the mid-major WCC.  When we schedule H/H, it is with Power 6 conference opponents only.  We also play in the Gavitt Games against the B-10 in what amounts to an alternating H/H.  Doing a WCC H/H would be in some ways worse than doing a straight up H/H against UW-GB, Bradley or IL State because of the airfare and travel involved.  C'Mon man!

I think 69 and others are talking about as fans not as bean counters. We know it's not going to happen but as fans we would prefer it to Chicago State and American.

[SaveOD238]

NO CHANCE.  MU and the rest of the BEast is NOT giving up home dates to do a double H/H with the mid-major WCC.  When we schedule H/H, it is with Power 6 conference opponents only.  We also play in the Gavitt Games against the B-10 in what amounts to an alternating H/H.  Doing a WCC H/H would be in some ways worse than doing a straight up H/H against UW-GB, Bradley or IL State because of the airfare and travel involved.  C'Mon man!

I don't see any harm in scheduling a H/H against Gonzaga or St. Mary's (and maybe BYU).  What's the difference between a H/H against St. Mary's and one against Georgia, really?

One thing that has not been mentioned here is how well Gonzaga, BYU and St Mary's all fit very well into the "everyone except St. Johns and Providence wears Navy Blue" color scheme that the Big East has going right now.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I don't see any harm in scheduling a H/H against Gonzaga or St. Mary's (and maybe BYU).  What's the difference between a H/H against St. Mary's and one against Georgia, really?

One thing that has not been mentioned here is how well Gonzaga, BYU and St Mary's all fit very well into the "everyone except St. Johns and Providence wears Navy Blue" color scheme that the Big East has going right now.

St Johns has navy as well, no?

[jsglow]

I don't see any harm in scheduling a H/H against Gonzaga or St. Mary's (and maybe BYU).  What's the difference between a H/H against St. Mary's and one against Georgia, really?

One thing that has not been mentioned here is how well Gonzaga, BYU and St Mary's all fit very well into the "everyone except St. Johns and Providence wears Navy Blue" color scheme that the Big East has going right now.

That would be great.  But the rest of the conference is strictly in the 'buy' category.