MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: wadesworld on December 04, 2017, 10:56:08 AM
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Creighton played at Gonzaga on Friday night (and got beat pretty good, though had the lead at the half) and Gonzaga will make the return trip to Creighton next season. Would seem like simply a nice home and home non-conference matchup, but Norlander and Parrish are saying they have both heard Gonzaga would like to be in the BE and may have been told if you want to get into the BE start playing some of the BE schools as a "trial run" to see if the travel is as big of an issue as it seems, etc.
Their argument is that if you're already getting on a plane and flying 2 hours for conference matchups as it is what's the extra hour and a half added on? They think the bigger issue is that they already have high major teams wanting to play non-conference matchups against them unlike other better high-majors (St. Mary's, Wichita State, etc.) and if they were in the BE they would then be matching up with programs that can recruit at the same level that they do as opposed to dominating the talent level within their conference like the currently do. They also don't have the votes to get into the BE.
Interesting stuff. Maybe in a couple years even if they're not in the BE they'll want to play a home-and-home with Marquette.
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6-7 hrs to 75% of the BE locations actually
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6-7 hrs to 75% of the BE locations actually
I'm seeing direct from Seattle to NYC is anywhere from 4 hours 40 minutes to 5 hours 15 minutes. How much can changing it to Spokane add, especially when you're flying charter?
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I'm seeing direct from Seattle to NYC is anywhere from 4 hours 40 minutes to 5 hours 15 minutes. How much can changing it to Spokane add, especially when you're flying charter?
I am watching Villlanova vs. Gonzaga tomorrow night....in NYC.
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there was talk a few years ago of a Gonzaga-Marquette home-and-home.
However Gonzaga wanted our home game to be in Chicago. Which would possibly help their recruiting in that area.
They offered Seattle as a neutral site for their home game.
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Need to find a way to schedule those type of games. No offense, GA and Purdue does not wow me.
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Creighton played at Gonzaga on Friday night (and got beat pretty good, though had the lead at the half) and Gonzaga will make the return trip to Creighton next season. Would seem like simply a nice home and home non-conference matchup, but Norlander and Parrish are saying they have both heard Gonzaga would like to be in the BE and may have been told if you want to get into the BE start playing some of the BE schools as a "trial run" to see if the travel is as big of an issue as it seems, etc.
Their argument is that if you're already getting on a plane and flying 2 hours for conference matchups as it is what's the extra hour and a half added on? They think the bigger issue is that they already have high major teams wanting to play non-conference matchups against them unlike other better high-majors (St. Mary's, Wichita State, etc.) and if they were in the BE they would then be matching up with programs that can recruit at the same level that they do as opposed to dominating the talent level within their conference like the currently do. They also don't have the votes to get into the BE.
Interesting stuff. Maybe in a couple years even if they're not in the BE they'll want to play a home-and-home with Marquette.
Yeah, St. John's is going to send their baseball team to Spokane and Gonzaga is going to fly theirs to Seton Hall annually. And let's not forget women's hoops, volleyball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's tennis and other teams that do not charter who would be flying all the way across the country every year. I'm sure Providence is dying for that back to back Men's soccer weekend in Spokane and Omaha. SMH.
the only person talking about GU getting into the Big East is Mark Few.
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I’d love for it to happen...but even if it worked for hoops, it would not make sense for non-revenue sports.
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Yeah, St. John's is going to send their baseball team to Spokane and Gonzaga is going to fly theirs to Seton Hall annually. And let's not forget women's hoops, volleyball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's tennis and other teams that do not charter who would be flying all the way across the country every year. I'm sure Providence is dying for that back to back Men's soccer weekend in Spokane and Omaha. SMH.
the only person talking about GU getting into the Big East is Mark Few.
Guess you know more than Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander. Looking forward to your podcast on the matter and all things college basketball.
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So we can milk 'em for awhile with the non-conference games until they take a hint and realize they're not getting in? Sounds good.
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Need to find a way to schedule those type of games. No offense, GA and Purdue does not wow me.
Purdue was/is projected to be better than Gonzaga this season.
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Purdue was/is projected to be better than Gonzaga this season.
Zags would also be a 'bad matchup' for us
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Guess you know more than Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander. Looking forward to your podcast on the matter and all things college basketball.
He’s got you there Wadesworld. His post totally makes sense...women’s soccer, etc. etc. He does know more then them if they didn’t even breech those sports in whatever heaven ordained podcast they had.
Feel free to address his point...
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Zags would also be a 'bad matchup' for us
Honestly don't know, haven't watched them for more than a few seconds this season
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He’s got you there Wadesworld. His post totally makes sense...women’s soccer, etc. etc. He does know more then them if they didn’t even breech those sports in whatever heaven ordained podcast they had.
Feel free to address his point...
He has me on nothing. I was reporting what was said by two guys who are certainly much more "in the know" on college basketball than anybody on this board is. They spent a good 10-15 minutes of their podcast discussing the subject. If the only person talking about it is Mark Few (who I would actually think would be someone who would be AGAINST it, given that he has it pretty dang good as it is and he knows it, hence why he hasn't left Gonzaga for the hundreds of jobs he's been offered) I highly doubt they waste their time entertaining the subject.
I don't think it will ever happen. But apparently there's more to it than "Mark Few is the only person who is talking about it." Word is that they may have been told that if they want it to happen the first step would be to start scheduling some home and homes with teams pretty far east and see what the travel schedule would be like. Seems pretty simple to me.
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SUPERBAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nova took 'em behind the woodshed tonight.
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Gonzaga to the Big East makes sense for a lot of reasons. I hope they find a way to make it work.
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Gonzaga to the Big East makes sense for a lot of reasons. I hope they find a way to make it work.
It also doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons. Sure the Zags are great now but what happens if they slip to mediocrity? If their program slips to SLU levels they bring nothing to the conference.
Their recruiting could easily mimic Pitt moving to the ACC. Pitt recruited the northeast heavily but has struggled in a mostly southern conference. Now imagine the same about Gonzaga trying to recruit the west in an eastern & midwest conference. The downside is significant.
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Gonzaga to the Big East makes sense for a lot of reasons. I hope they find a way to make it work.
Unfortunately (or, fortunately, depending on your perspective) it doesn't make sense for a lot more reasons. I can't imagine it will ever happen.
In my opinion, the only way it is even remotely viable is as a men's basketball-only member of the conference. In that scenario they'd have to find someplace to park all their other sports, and I'm not sure who would want Gonzaga's sports without the crown jewel. Maybe the WCC would let them stay...maybe not.
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Unfortunately (or, fortunately, depending on your perspective) it doesn't make sense for a lot more reasons. I can't imagine it will ever happen.
In my opinion, the only way it is even remotely viable is as a men's basketball-only member of the conference. In that scenario they'd have to find someplace to park all their other sports, and I'm not sure who would want Gonzaga's sports without the crown jewel. Maybe the WCC would let them stay...maybe not.
Exactly, the problem is not men's basketball. It is all the other non-revenue sports. Those sports tend to hit several road match ups in one trip. Not sure what the total increased cost would be for a athletic dept, but it would not be cheap.
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Unfortunately (or, fortunately, depending on your perspective) it doesn't make sense for a lot more reasons. I can't imagine it will ever happen.
In my opinion, the only way it is even remotely viable is as a men's basketball-only member of the conference. In that scenario they'd have to find someplace to park all their other sports, and I'm not sure who would want Gonzaga's sports without the crown jewel. Maybe the WCC would let them stay...maybe not.
Is there any precedent for this? I know schools become associate members of other conferences for non revenue sports. Could be don’t if Gonzaga guaranteed one or two WCC games a year like Notre Dame does the ACC in football?
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Is there any precedent for this? I know schools become associate members of other conferences for non revenue sports. Could be don’t if Gonzaga guaranteed one or two WCC games a year like Notre Dame does the ACC in football?
Yeah, that is probably the closest comparison. The key difference is that, as much as many here hate them, the ND "brand" holds a lot more value even without its most valuable asset. You take away football and ND still has high level MBB, WBB and is competitive in a lot of other sports. And they have a lot of resources and a demonstrated commitment to their athletics. When negotiating various contracts, I suspect that ND's presence is a "plus" for the ACC -- even without football. I'm guessing the ACC pursued ND and was eager to bring them into the fold.
I just can't imagine the situation would look the same for Gonzaga. Once MBB is out of the equation, do they offer much of anything to the WCC? What happens to the ESPN deal? Why would all those California schools want to travel 1000 miles to Spokane? Note: all this is said with no knowledge whatsoever about whether the WCC even could exclude Gonzaga if it tried to pull out MBB.
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Is there any precedent for this? I know schools become associate members of other conferences for non revenue sports. Could be don’t if Gonzaga guaranteed one or two WCC games a year like Notre Dame does the ACC in football?
That's what I find tough to reconcile. Will the WCC let them keep other sports there after taking the league's cash cow away? Would the Mountain West, Big Sky, or any other western conference have interest in Gonzaga without basketball?
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It also doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons. Sure the Zags are great now but what happens if they slip to mediocrity? If their program slips to SLU levels they bring nothing to the conference.
Their recruiting could easily mimic Pitt moving to the ACC. Pitt recruited the northeast heavily but has struggled in a mostly southern conference. Now imagine the same about Gonzaga trying to recruit the west in an eastern & midwest conference. The downside is significant.
Maybe, but so far programs coming into the Big East have only elevated. Moving from a mid-major to a high-major has a better chance of elevating a program than moving from a high-major to a slightly lower high-major. A lot of Pitt's downfall is also from a terrible coaching hire.
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I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules don't allow a program to house it's basketball in one conference and it's non-revenue sports in another. The only sport that is allowed to do that is football. The only exception is if the conference doesn't offer a certain sport. If we took on Gonzaga, it would be for all sports. I just don't if the financial burden of that is as impassible of a barrier as people think. Gonzaga would bear the brunt of that cost and the jump in income from WCC to BE is a steep one.
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Exactly, the problem is not men's basketball. It is all the other non-revenue sports. Those sports tend to hit several road match ups in one trip. Not sure what the total increased cost would be for a athletic dept, but it would not be cheap.
In volleyball, Georgetown tends to schedule its BE road trips in pairs. Marquette/DePaul and Butler/Cincinnati are always paired. This past year, SJU, SH and Villanova were scheduled as stand-alone trips (although in the past they typically link two of them). And, for some unknown reason, Creighton and Providence are often paired. That trip absolutely kicked my daughter's butt this year -- a very long weekend. I honestly can't imagine throwing a Spokane trip in there. The only way that GU to the BE is potentially viable is as MBB-only.
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That's what I find tough to reconcile. Will the WCC let them keep other sports there after taking the league's cash cow away? Would the Mountain West, Big Sky, or any other western conference have interest in Gonzaga without basketball?
I don't believe that schools can be an associate member of a conference for one sport if their primary conference also offers that sport. So I don't think that the Zags could join the BE for basketball and park their other programs in a different conference.
My recollection is that this came up when San Diego State and Boise State were going to join the BE as football only members, they had to move their other programs into the Big West and WAC respectively since they are non-football conferences.
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I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules don't allow a program to house it's basketball in one conference and it's non-revenue sports in another. The only sport that is allowed to do that is football. The only exception is if the conference doesn't offer a certain sport. If we took on Gonzaga, it would be for all sports. I just don't if the financial burden of that is as impassible of a barrier as people think. Gonzaga would bear the brunt of that cost and the jump in income from WCC to BE is a steep one.
I think you underestimate how closely a lot of BE schools watch their budgets in other sports. Hell, even adding another team -- any other team -- that would require another road trip would hit some programs pretty hard.
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I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules don't allow a program to house it's basketball in one conference and it's non-revenue sports in another. The only sport that is allowed to do that is football. The only exception is if the conference doesn't offer a certain sport. If we took on Gonzaga, it would be for all sports. I just don't if the financial burden of that is as impassible of a barrier as people think. Gonzaga would bear the brunt of that cost and the jump in income from WCC to BE is a steep one.
Sorry TAMU, I didn't see this post.
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I think you underestimate how closely a lot of BE schools watch their budgets in other sports. Hell, even adding another team -- any other team -- that would require another road trip would hit some programs pretty hard.
My point is that you only add Gonzaga if it make financial sense for the conference. I think at a certain point it would.
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Their recruiting could easily mimic Pitt moving to the ACC. Pitt recruited the northeast heavily but has struggled in a mostly southern conference. Now imagine the same about Gonzaga trying to recruit the west in an eastern & midwest conference. The downside is significant.
I think it's also important to remember that Gonzaga recruits internationally better than a lot of other programs. There's pretty much a line straight from Sydney to Spokane, and European players flock there.
Gonzaga's current roster includes
4- international players (France x2, Denmark, Japan)
7- West Coast (if you count Colorado and Utah as West Coast)
3- Mid-west (Chicago is furthest East)
0- East coast
Of three committed recruits 2 are West Coast and 1 is (I think) an international playing at Monteverde in FL.
Those European guys might appreciate playing a little closer to home. Copenhagen to NYC is a lot easier for mom and dad than Copenhagen to Spokane or even LA.
I've always said that Gonzaga needs a partner though for travel, scheduling, and recruiting reasons. St. Mary's is the obvious choice. Imagine getting a Big East foot-in-the-door of that sweet California recruiting hotbed.
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How many fans would Gonzaga/St. Marys bring to the Garden for the BET. Not many I would think.
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How many fans would Gonzaga/St. Marys bring to the Garden for the BET. Not many I would think.
Don't know about St. Mary's, but Gonzaga travels extremely well
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I think it's also important to remember that Gonzaga recruits internationally better than a lot of other programs. There's pretty much a line straight from Sydney to Spokane, and European players flock there.
Gonzaga's current roster includes
4- international players (France x2, Denmark, Japan)
7- West Coast (if you count Colorado and Utah as West Coast)
3- Mid-west (Chicago is furthest East)
0- East coast
Of three committed recruits 2 are West Coast and 1 is (I think) an international playing at Monteverde in FL.
Those European guys might appreciate playing a little closer to home. Copenhagen to NYC is a lot easier for mom and dad than Copenhagen to Spokane or even LA.
I've always said that Gonzaga needs a partner though for travel, scheduling, and recruiting reasons. St. Mary's is the obvious choice. Imagine getting a Big East foot-in-the-door of that sweet California recruiting hotbed.
That would be the reason I don't think it ever happens. St. Mary's would not be a logical travel partner for Gonzaga. You still have a 2+ hour flight from Spokane to Oakland (which it looks like is where you would most likely fly in for a game at St. Mary's). That's essentially just another road trip, not really a travel partner.
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Perhaps the best solution would be for the WCC and Big East to form some sort of a partnership where they schedule 2 to 4 games each year just for MBB. That way they are still both separate conferences with their own tournaments and their non revenue sports would not be affected by all the travel and expense that would ensue. I think I would rather play even some of the weaker WCC teams than the "cup cakes" we schedule and we would get some real away games on the schedule. It could even expand the recruiting base for both leagues.
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Perhaps the best solution would be for the WCC and Big East to form some sort of a partnership where they schedule 2 to 4 games each year just for MBB. That way they are still both separate conferences with their own tournaments and their non revenue sports would not be affected by all the travel and expense that would ensue. I think I would rather play even some of the weaker WCC teams than the "cup cakes" we schedule and we would get some real away games on the schedule. It could even expand the recruiting base for both leagues.
There is a lot of merit to this idea. East coast vs. west coast non-conference showdown.
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I do not want to see multiple WCC teams on Marquette's schedule every year. It's a one or two bid conference. Marquette and other BE teams aren't giving up home games for the WCC.
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I doubt ADs/coaches would want to give up that much out of conference scheduling authority. Programs like to adjust their schedules to what's going on with their teams...try to a good home-away series, schedule a game near a player's hometown, have more cupcakes if the team is young...
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How many fans would Gonzaga/St. Marys bring to the Garden for the BET. Not many I would think.
Gonzaga probably had 15-20% of the garden last night
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I do not want to see multiple WCC teams on Marquette's schedule every year. It's a one or two bid conference. Marquette and other BE teams aren't giving up home games for the WCC.
Probably not. I wouldn't mind it as a fan as long as were sacrificing the likes of Chicago State/American from our schedule rather than Georgia/Vermont to make room for it. I don't know all the economics that go into making a non-conference schedule.
If it did happen, we would need to make sure that Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU participated every year (if only some of the schools participated). It's a steep drop off in talent after that.
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Probably not. I wouldn't mind it as a fan as long as were sacrificing the likes of Chicago State/American from our schedule rather than Georgia/Vermont to make room for it. I don't know all the economics that go into making a non-conference schedule.
If it did happen, we would need to make sure that Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU participated every year (if only some of the schools participated). It's a steep drop off in talent after that.
Yikes! That's not pretty. According to kenpom there are 3 top 100 teams and and then a bunch in the low 100s and 200s.
13- Gonzaga
32- St. Mary
70- BYU
160- San Diego
173- San Francisco
202- Santa Clara
222- LMU
229- Pacific
296- Pepperdine
310- Portland
Then again, our non-conference slate includes MSM (294), NIU (245), EIU (210), and American (289), so swapping out one of those for, say, Loyola Marymount isn't so bad.
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That would be the reason I don't think it ever happens. St. Mary's would not be a logical travel partner for Gonzaga. You still have a 2+ hour flight from Spokane to Oakland (which it looks like is where you would most likely fly in for a game at St. Mary's). That's essentially just another road trip, not really a travel partner.
I was going to say the same thing. The trip from Spokane to Oakland is longer than most of the travel between the current Big East teams. It's a longer trip than any of Xavier's conference road games.
From a purely geographical "travel partner" standpoint, Seattle or Portland would be more attractive. But they obviously don't bring as much to the table -- at least from a MBB perspective -- as St. Mary's. I know very little about their other sports.
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Yikes! That's not pretty. According to kenpom there are 3 top 100 teams and and then a bunch in the low 100s and 200s.
13- Gonzaga
32- St. Mary
70- BYU
160- San Diego
173- San Francisco
202- Santa Clara
222- LMU
229- Pacific
296- Pepperdine
310- Portland
Then again, our non-conference slate includes MSM (294), NIU (245), EIU (210), and American (289), so swapping out one of those for, say, Loyola Marymount isn't so bad.
The key difference, of course, is we're not traveling to MSM, NIU, EIU or American.
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Perhaps the best solution would be for the WCC and Big East to form some sort of a partnership where they schedule 2 to 4 games each year just for MBB. That way they are still both separate conferences with their own tournaments and their non revenue sports would not be affected by all the travel and expense that would ensue. I think I would rather play even some of the weaker WCC teams than the "cup cakes" we schedule and we would get some real away games on the schedule. It could even expand the recruiting base for both leagues.
NO CHANCE. MU and the rest of the BEast is NOT giving up home dates to do a double H/H with the mid-major WCC. When we schedule H/H, it is with Power 6 conference opponents only. We also play in the Gavitt Games against the B-10 in what amounts to an alternating H/H. Doing a WCC H/H would be in some ways worse than doing a straight up H/H against UW-GB, Bradley or IL State because of the airfare and travel involved. C'Mon man!
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Frankly, I believe the conversation has already taken place regarding the conditions on which Gonzaga would be considered for Big East membership. Nevertheless, if Gonzaga were to be admitted, it will probably require some combination of the following:
1) University of Denver must be admitted as a full member (which would come with its own set of criteria).
2) A commitment to add women's lacrosse and/or field hockey and men's lacrosse.
3) Some sort of travel subsidy for the 5 "east coast" schools (e.g. the marginal difference between travel to Omaha and Spokane).*
4) A long-term media rights agreement.
5) Spokane does not host a conference championship in any sport for the first X years of membership.
6) All of these conditions go away when the Big East adds two/four more teams west of the Mississippi (to get to 14/16 and create east and west divisions).
* This is probably a lot less than people might think, but could come in the form of reduced or disproportionate distribution of earned NCAA tournament shares, i.e. if the rest of the BE keeps 50% of their shares and 50% are distributed equally to all conference members, Gonzaga might get to keep 40% of theirs.
Personally, I think #1 is key and would make both DU and GU a no-brainer if DU made a serious commitment to basketball. Regardless, #6 has to be part of the long term plan. In other words, the Big East does not add Gonzaga as a one-off expansion... Gonzaga is added with the intent of a full-blown expansion of the Big East into the Western U.S. (in which case, WTF do you name the conference?).
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NO CHANCE. MU and the rest of the BEast is NOT giving up home dates to do a double H/H with the mid-major WCC. When we schedule H/H, it is with Power 6 conference opponents only. We also play in the Gavitt Games against the B-10 in what amounts to an alternating H/H. Doing a WCC H/H would be in some ways worse than doing a straight up H/H against UW-GB, Bradley or IL State because of the airfare and travel involved. C'Mon man!
I think 69 and others are talking about as fans not as bean counters. We know it's not going to happen but as fans we would prefer it to Chicago State and American.
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NO CHANCE. MU and the rest of the BEast is NOT giving up home dates to do a double H/H with the mid-major WCC. When we schedule H/H, it is with Power 6 conference opponents only. We also play in the Gavitt Games against the B-10 in what amounts to an alternating H/H. Doing a WCC H/H would be in some ways worse than doing a straight up H/H against UW-GB, Bradley or IL State because of the airfare and travel involved. C'Mon man!
I don't see any harm in scheduling a H/H against Gonzaga or St. Mary's (and maybe BYU). What's the difference between a H/H against St. Mary's and one against Georgia, really?
One thing that has not been mentioned here is how well Gonzaga, BYU and St Mary's all fit very well into the "everyone except St. Johns and Providence wears Navy Blue" color scheme that the Big East has going right now.
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I don't see any harm in scheduling a H/H against Gonzaga or St. Mary's (and maybe BYU). What's the difference between a H/H against St. Mary's and one against Georgia, really?
One thing that has not been mentioned here is how well Gonzaga, BYU and St Mary's all fit very well into the "everyone except St. Johns and Providence wears Navy Blue" color scheme that the Big East has going right now.
St Johns has navy as well, no?
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I don't see any harm in scheduling a H/H against Gonzaga or St. Mary's (and maybe BYU). What's the difference between a H/H against St. Mary's and one against Georgia, really?
One thing that has not been mentioned here is how well Gonzaga, BYU and St Mary's all fit very well into the "everyone except St. Johns and Providence wears Navy Blue" color scheme that the Big East has going right now.
That would be great. But the rest of the conference is strictly in the 'buy' category.
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I do not want to see multiple WCC teams on Marquette's schedule every year. It's a one or two bid conference. Marquette and other BE teams aren't giving up home games for the WCC.
I think a 6 team challenge would be fine, provided Gonzaga, BYU, and St Mary's are in every year. You might end up with the occasional road game at a 200ish team, but rarely and probably at most one per year for the entire league.
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A Big East - American challenge would be cool. Would be good for both conferences. Can we just ask them to leave out East Carolina and Tulane?
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A lot of Pitt's downfall is also from a terrible coaching hire.
Wojo to Pitt?
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Personally, I think #1 is key and would make both DU and GU a no-brainer if DU made a serious commitment to basketball. Regardless, #6 has to be part of the long term plan. In other words, the Big East does not add Gonzaga as a one-off expansion... Gonzaga is added with the intent of a full-blown expansion of the Big East into the Western U.S. (in which case, WTF do you name the conference?).
The Big 14?