3 UCLA Players arrested in China

[MomofMUltiples]

This is not a race or gender issue. This is about the hazards that US citizens face when they go to a foreign country and commit a crime.  I had a friend from high school - white, middle class, female- who was given a five year sentence for possession of heroin in a European country. People need to know that their rights are not the same when they travel abroad.

I don't advocate for these men to be handed harsh punishment for what they did. But we have to understand that it's a risk.

I would, however, advocate that UCLA come up with a suitable punishment for these players - who knew what they were doing was wrong - bringing bad publicity and maybe even shame to the program and school. Likely won't happen; too many $$ in basketball.

[#UnleashSean]

I guess my response then you want to see this kid get the hammer.

And, location shouldn't matter, right? A crime is a crime.

Well location most definitely matters. If I was a woman in Saudi Arabia I could be arrested for being outside alone. If I wore American jeans in the ussr I'd be sent to the gulag.

So a crime is not always a crime everywhere

[Galway Eagle]

Well it has been reported that the kids will serve 20 days house arrest.

IMO that is a joke of a sentence.

Your thoughts?

Joke of a sentence for what was likely grand theft based on the store. But on the unlikely event they stole the only thing not $500 in the store then it seems appropriate.

Also are we talking house arrest in China or UCLA? Because if it's at UCLA they'll likely argue some route that includes the practice facility, classes, the whole dorm etc which is essentially their life anyways.

[GGGG]

Well it has been reported that the kids will serve 20 days house arrest.

IMO that is a joke of a sentence.

Your thoughts?

It is clearly not cruel or unusual so I'm fine with it.  I think that first-time offenders for crime that doesn't cause harm to others or their property, and restitution is paid and/or the goods returned, that this type of sentence is fine.

[Loose Cannon]

Would this me more than the OK State football player that punched and broke the girl's Jaw?

[Marcus92]

Taking another's property without permission is wrong. Stealing is both illegal and unethical. That has absolutely nothing to do with race, nationality or religion.

Stealing in a foreign country universally known for widespread human rights abuses is amazingly, stupefyingly dumb. That said — as American citizens, the players involved should still get every possible protection and assistance from the State Department. Nobody deserves to be treated the way accused and convicted criminals are under the Chinese system.

If it goes to trial, the process could take more than 3 months. Conviction is a near certainty. However, I suspect Chinese authorities will want to make this go away, rather than risk the bad PR. Reuters reports that often "China will deport foreigners suspected of having committed relatively minor offenses without going through the whole process."

"Relatively minor" is Reuter's language, not mine. But compared to offenses such as assault or attempted murder, that seems appropriate.

[Hards Alumni]

Taking another's property without permission is wrong. Stealing is both illegal and unethical. That has absolutely nothing to do with race, nationality or religion.

Stealing in a foreign country universally known for widespread human rights abuses is amazingly, stupefyingly dumb. That said — as American citizens, the players involved should still get every possible protection and assistance from the State Department. Nobody deserves to be treated the way accused and convicted criminals are under the Chinese system.

If it goes to trial, the process could take more than 3 months. Conviction is a near certainty. However, I suspect Chinese authorities will want to make this go away, rather than risk the bad PR. Reuters reports that often "China will deport foreigners suspected of having committed relatively minor offenses without going through the whole process."

"Relatively minor" is Reuter's language, not mine. But compared to offenses such as assault or attempted murder, that seems appropriate.

They've already admitted guilt... I'm pretty sure it was open and shut.

20 days home arrest AND (something I missed earlier) a lifetime ban from China... Which is significant because these men can't ever play a game of basketball in China, which also means no international games played in China.

After thinking about it more, I think the punishment is commensurate.

[jsglow]

Wow did this spin up!

Anyway, if they do get off with roughly a month of jail time they should consider themselves very fortunate.  Then the next question is what UCLA should do to them.  I know what my decision would be.

[Hards Alumni]

Wow did this spin up!

Anyway, if they do get off with roughly a month of jail time they should consider themselves very fortunate.  Then the next question is what UCLA should do to them.  I know what my decision would be.

I'm curious to see as well.  5 games would satisfy me.  Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.

[jsglow]

Here's what I don't know.  Let's assume this was at least a couple thousand in merch.  In the USA does that get plea bargained down to a misdemeanor on a first offense?  I assume a dollar figure like that starts out as a felony.  And if there's a prior record it might stay a felony.

[Lighthouse 84]

I'm curious to see as well.  5 games would satisfy me.  Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.

It'll be interesting to see what Alford advocates for suspension, etc. once they do get back to UCLA.  I'm guessing he believes they are innocent, regardless of their admissions and regardless of any proof and that once they're back, people will need to move and quit dwelling on something that's already happened.

Hopefully, if that happens, the PAC 12 jumps in.

[Benny B]

It'll be interesting to see what Alford advocates for suspension, etc. once they do get back to UCLA.  I'm guessing he believes they are innocent, regardless of their admissions and regardless of any proof and that once they're back, people will need to move and quit dwelling on something that's already happened.

Hopefully, if that happens, the PAC 12 jumps in.

Alford believing a player of his is innocent?  Get out of town.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I'm curious to see as well.  5 games would satisfy me.  Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.

Since this happened outside of the US, the NCAA jurisdiction doesnt apply.  UCLA is going to leave this to the international accreditation agency.

[mu03eng]

Haven't read the whole thing so maybe this has been brought up.....if this crime didn't include Ball's kid is this nearly the deal it's made out to be. That's not an argument that they should be let off or anything, but since junior Ball was involved there is an automatic escalation.

[Lennys Tap]

This is what we have the State Department for, and it should be their mission to ensure that wherever they are in the world, Americans are treated as the 8th Amendment guarantees. I fully understand they are not in America, and I fully understand China has different standards and laws. However, these are individuals that were raised in a country where they are accustomed to the 8th Amendment. Further, I suspect they were raised to believe things like this would typically be greeted with a far less severe punishment.

It's easy to say the standards change as soon as they leave the country, but what doesn't change is how they were raised and what their expectations are as American citizens. Fair or not, my suspicion is that Liangelo Ball believes he is a superstar and above the law. Mainly because his father constantly acts like his children are superstars and above the law. You can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take 18 years of education, coddling, and Americanism out of the kid.

Should they be punished? Absolutely. Are they subject to Chinese laws? Absolutely. But because they were raised as Americans and are Americans, it should be the duty of our State Department to try to extradite them so they are treated in accordance with what they have been raised to expect, which is no cruel and unusual punishments.

I suspect that both the parents involved and UCLA as an institution failed these kids. They are technically adults, and if they end up punished to the fullest extent of Chinese standards the situation is what it is, but I sincerely hope the State Department does everything they can to get these kids home and find a way to punish them in accordance with our laws.

Where was our State Department when that kid (who was eventually sent home to die) was being tortured in N Korea?

[Hards Alumni]

Where was our State Department when that kid (who was eventually sent home to die) was being tortured in N Korea?

I'm going to go ahead and point out the obvious.  We don't have the same rapport with North Korea that we do with China.

[barfolomew]

Wandered over to Gottlieb's twitter because I was curious to see if he dared to have a take on this.
Radio silence, except for this:


Doug Gottlieb‏ Verified account @GottliebShow  Nov 7  More

Doug Gottlieb Retweeted Oklahoma State Univ.
Isn't it ironic... don't ya think

Oklahoma State Univ. Verified account @okstate
Catch the @GottliebShow speak about the importance of ethics tonight @ 5:30. http://okla.st/2zie0Px 
25 replies 19 retweets 149 likes

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

There is a huge difference between "never did anything dumb" and "stole items worth thousands of dollars".

And if you are asking how I know the stuff they lifted was worth that much, you have never been in a Louis Vuitton store.

I have been to Louis Vuitton stores in China.  They are usually of the knock-off or fell-off the truck variety and there is no reason to shoplift because you can probably negotiate for about $15 a purse.

[bilsu]

Where was our State Department when that kid (who was eventually sent home to die) was being tortured in N Korea?

I would be surprised if we had an embassy in North Korea.

[Hards Alumni]

I have been to Louis Vuitton stores in China.  They are usually of the knock-off or fell-off the truck variety and there is no reason to shoplift because you can probably negotiate for about $15 a purse.

http://www.louisvuitton.cn/zhs-cn/stores

There is definitely a ton of legit LV stores in China... and there is one in Hangzhu...  Just sayin'.

[Herman Cain]

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/11/09/liangelo-ball-ucla-basketball-players-china-house-arrest-punishment

[MomofMUltiples]

Maybe house arrest with no TV/electronics would be more appropriate.

[brewcity77]

Maybe house arrest with no TV/electronics would be more appropriate.

I think any teenager would find that to be cruel and unusual punishment 

[PBRme]

20 days in a luxury hotel in China.  I guess that will mean they miss at least a few games back in the US

[79Warrior]

I would be surprised if we had an embassy in North Korea.

We do not.