3 UCLA Players arrested in China

[Hards Alumni]

Not accusing anyone here specifically, but sorry guys, this is a racially charged issue. How many of you have ever advocated prison time for white teenage girls in America?

There is plenty of statistical evidence that blacks in America get more prison time than whites for the same crimes. Now we have people on this board who are advocating hard prison time for shoplifting.

Estimates are that somewhere between 11%=20% of the US population have shoplifted at sometime in their lives. Are you calling for them all to serve "hard time"? Should we build more prisons to house all of these teenage "criminals"?

In the last 10 years over 11,000,000 Americans have been caught shoplifting. Should they all be in prison?


So, I guess what I am asking to all of those wanting this kid to got o prison in a foreign dictatorship - do you want us to send millions and millions of american kids to prison? Are you all "Ted Baxter" hardliners? And, theoretically, would Ted Baxter advocate years of hard prison time if his 16 year old daughter stole some lipstick?

Strawman. 

This is a crime committed in another country.  You play by their rules.  I don't care what race the person is.  In fact, you're the only person to have even brought up race.

[GGGG]

Exactly.  This isn't kids being kids.  They knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and made a conscious decision to do it anyway.  I don't want them to rot for 10 years, but I think 3 months could be life altering for them and it may set an example for others to not be so cavalier with their behavior.

And Sultan, I'm not saying the kids don't deserve their day in court (they do, obviously), but remember they are on Chinese soil.  The letter of the law is not the same worldwide.

Why do people keep pointing this out to me?  No kidding.

That doesn't mean that an American sense of justice is being served. And that should mean something.

[Jockey]

You're creating a strawman argument that no one here will disagree with.

I guess my response then you want to see this kid get the hammer.

And, location shouldn't matter, right? A crime is a crime.

[Galway Eagle]

Not accusing anyone here specifically, but sorry guys, this is a racially charged issue. How many of you have ever advocated prison time for white teenage girls in America?

There is plenty of statistical evidence that blacks in America get more prison time than whites for the same crimes. Now we have people on this board who are advocating hard prison time for shoplifting.

Estimates are that somewhere between 11%=20% of the US population have shoplifted at sometime in their lives. Are you calling for them all to serve "hard time"? Should we build more prisons to house all of these teenage "criminals"?

In the last 10 years over 11,000,000 Americans have been caught shoplifting. Should they all be in prison?


So, I guess what I am asking to all of those wanting this kid to got o prison in a foreign dictatorship - do you want us to send millions and millions of american kids to prison? Are you all "Ted Baxter" hardliners? And, theoretically, would Ted Baxter advocate years of hard prison time if his 16 year old daughter stole some lipstick?

First stealing from Louis voitton isn't exactly stealing lipstick.

Second I'm not sure any are calling for prison time if it's their first offense and it was on American soil but it wasn't and they shouldn't be treated differently than any other American who stole expensive things and got caught in China. If someone is advocating hard time for this instance they should have proof it's grand theft not petty theft or shoplifting.

[Hards Alumni]

Why do people keep pointing this out to me?  No kidding.

That doesn't mean that an American sense of justice is being served. And that should mean something.

Sure, but they didn't do this in America.  Chinese players doing this in America should expect punishment under American law.

Why is this difficult?

[Hards Alumni]

I guess my response then you want to see this kid get the hammer.

And, location shouldn't matter, right? A crime is a crime.

But location is the most important factor here.  Chinese soil, they get to determine the punishment.

If there is a problem with this, then don't go to China anymore; or understand that actions have consequences, and they may not be the same as back home.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Maybe if they'd gone to the Louis Vuitton knockoff store, the penalties wouldn't be as harsh, hey?

They were in China, so it probably was a knock off store.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Sure, but they didn't do this in America.  Chinese players doing this in America should expect punishment under American law.

Why is this difficult?

This is true, but there is a point when the punishment becomes so severe that it is no longer ethical. Where that point is different for different people.

It's oversimplifying it to say that you need to follow the law of the land at all times.  What if the law of the land was that these kids should have a hand chopped off? Sometimes the law of the land is immoral.

These things are on a spectrum. For you, 3 to 10 years of hard labor is within ethical boundaries as a punishment for shoplifting. For others,  it's not.

Honestly,  I doubt it matters. I think the players end up getting sent back to the usa where they will get slap on the wrist punishments from UCLA. Which Ipersonally don't think is right.

[Galway Eagle]

This is true, but there is a point when the punishment becomes so severe that it is no longer ethical. Where that point is different for different people.

It's oversimplifying it to say that you need to follow the law of the land at all times.  What if the law of the land was that these kids should have a hand chopped off? Sometimes the law of the land is immoral.

These things are on a spectrum. For you, 3 to 10 years of hard labor is within ethical boundaries as a punishment for shoplifting. For others,  it's not.

Honestly,  I doubt it matters. I think the players end up getting sent back to the usa where they will get slap on the wrist punishments from UCLA. Which Ipersonally don't think is right.

Of course it's not ethical but by Chinese perspective our punishment Isn't ethical. That's why location matters.

Just because we're American doesn't mean we get to dictate what is and is not ethical in every country. If you believe that getting a slap on the wrist isn't "right" imagine how the Chinese feel about it ethically.

Location matters. It's why when people from the Middle East come here and kiss an unmarried women they don't lose a hand, but when it happens there they do.

[GGGG]

Sure, but they didn't do this in America.  Chinese players doing this in America should expect punishment under American law.

Why is this difficult?

Holy sh*t.  Can you not read?  I have acknowledged that repeatedly.

My point is that we should be concerned that an American could be in a Chinese jail pounding rocks for 3 years where the American equivalent crime would be a few months in jail and probation at most.  That should offend our sense of justice. 

[StillAWarrior]

The new stuff I'm seeing seems to suggest that the punishment may not be too severe.

For example

[GGGG]

Just because we're American doesn't mean we get to dictate what is and is not ethical in every country.

No one said this.

[GGGG]

But location is the most important factor here.  Chinese soil, they get to determine the punishment.

No one said otherwise.

Stop making arguments that don't exist.

[Galway Eagle]

No one said this.

When you say "that should offend our sense of justice" does that not equate to our sense of justice is ethical and theirs is not?

[Hards Alumni]

Holy sh*t.  Can you not read?  I have acknowledged that repeatedly.

My point is that we should be concerned that an American could be in a Chinese jail pounding rocks for 3 years where the American equivalent crime would be a few months in jail and probation at most.  That should offend our sense of justice.

I'm not concerned with it at all.  Nor should anyone but the players and their families.

[GGGG]

When you say "that should offend our sense of justice" does that not equate to our sense of justice is ethical and theirs is not?

It isn't.  That isn't "dictating" anything.

[GGGG]

I'm not concerned with it at all. 

Well that's sad.  Injustice should make you concerned no matter the circumstance.

[Hards Alumni]

Well that's sad.  Injustice should make you concerned no matter the circumstance.

Its an injustice to who, though?  Surely not everyone.

That's the issue you're having here.  A punishment hasn't even been doled out, but you're already calling for them to be punished at home under American law, rather than the country where they committed their crimes.

Apparently, national sovereignty means nothing to you?

[GGGG]

Its an injustice to who, though?  Surely not everyone.

That's the issue you're having here.  A punishment hasn't even been doled out, but you're already calling for them to be punished at home under American law, rather than the country where they committed their crimes.

Again, you are making things up.  I never said that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Of course it's not ethical but by Chinese perspective our punishment Isn't ethical. That's why location matters.

Just because we're American doesn't mean we get to dictate what is and is not ethical in every country. If you believe that getting a slap on the wrist isn't "right" imagine how the Chinese feel about it ethically.

Location matters. It's why when people from the Middle East come here and kiss an unmarried women they don't lose a hand, but when it happens there they do.

Location matters, but at some point a punishment would be so severe that our own sense of ethics demands that we try to save somebody from it. For some people, that threshold is going to be at "losing a hand" for others this is at that point. I'm not making an argument that someone should intervene in this particular situation, I'm just acknowledging that everyone's sense of ethics is different, and letting it boil down to "the law of the land is always correct 100% of the time" is oversimplifying it.

[Hards Alumni]

Again, you are making things up.  I never said that.

Then what are you saying?  I'm not the only person that seems to be confused.

[GGGG]

Then what are you saying?  I'm not the only person that seems to be confused.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54768.msg958987#msg958987

[brewcity77]

This is what we have the State Department for, and it should be their mission to ensure that wherever they are in the world, Americans are treated as the 8th Amendment guarantees. I fully understand they are not in America, and I fully understand China has different standards and laws. However, these are individuals that were raised in a country where they are accustomed to the 8th Amendment. Further, I suspect they were raised to believe things like this would typically be greeted with a far less severe punishment.

It's easy to say the standards change as soon as they leave the country, but what doesn't change is how they were raised and what their expectations are as American citizens. Fair or not, my suspicion is that Liangelo Ball believes he is a superstar and above the law. Mainly because his father constantly acts like his children are superstars and above the law. You can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take 18 years of education, coddling, and Americanism out of the kid.

Should they be punished? Absolutely. Are they subject to Chinese laws? Absolutely. But because they were raised as Americans and are Americans, it should be the duty of our State Department to try to extradite them so they are treated in accordance with what they have been raised to expect, which is no cruel and unusual punishments.

I suspect that both the parents involved and UCLA as an institution failed these kids. They are technically adults, and if they end up punished to the fullest extent of Chinese standards the situation is what it is, but I sincerely hope the State Department does everything they can to get these kids home and find a way to punish them in accordance with our laws.

[GGGG]

This is what we have the State Department for, and it should be their mission to ensure that wherever they are in the world, Americans are treated as the 8th Amendment guarantees. I fully understand they are not in America, and I fully understand China has different standards and laws. However, these are individuals that were raised in a country where they are accustomed to the 8th Amendment. Further, I suspect they were raised to believe things like this would typically be greeted with a far less severe punishment.

It's easy to say the standards change as soon as they leave the country, but what doesn't change is how they were raised and what their expectations are as American citizens. Fair or not, my suspicion is that Liangelo Ball believes he is a superstar and above the law. Mainly because his father constantly acts like his children are superstars and above the law. You can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take 18 years of education, coddling, and Americanism out of the kid.

Should they be punished? Absolutely. Are they subject to Chinese laws? Absolutely. But because they were raised as Americans and are Americans, it should be the duty of our State Department to try to extradite them so they are treated in accordance with what they have been raised to expect, which is no cruel and unusual punishments.

I suspect that both the parents involved and UCLA as an institution failed these kids. They are technically adults, and if they end up punished to the fullest extent of Chinese standards the situation is what it is, but I sincerely hope the State Department does everything they can to get these kids home and find a way to punish them in accordance with our laws.

Exactly.  Well stated.

[Hards Alumni]

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54768.msg958987#msg958987

Well it has been reported that the kids will serve 20 days house arrest.

IMO that is a joke of a sentence.

Your thoughts?