Las Vegas Shooting

[GWSwarrior]

Five words to add to the 2nd Amendment by Justice John Paul Stevens

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-five-extra-words-that-can-fix-the-second-amendment/2014/04/11/f8a19578-b8fa-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.38431cdd15ad

This article nicely summarizes the legal history of the 2nd amendment. i encourage all to read it no matter your position on the 2nd so as to have a better understanding of its history over the last two centuries.

P.S. this article is part of a very insightful book.   

[buckchuckler]

Differing points of view does not a position of intellectual superiority make.

If someone were to argue that the level of gun violence in the US isn't completely unacceptable and/or that one part of the solution to this extremely complicated issue is not addressing who can buy firearms and the types of firearms they can buy,

So, maybe I was wrong and if so I apologize.  Your comment seemed completely condescending.   Maybe I read it wrong. 

Also didn't know faux intellectual was a talk radio term.  Only talk radio I listen to is MLB radio.  A bit of a guilty pleasure for me.  But I didn't know what to call someone who seemed to think they were so superior.  Again, maybe I misinterpreted your tone.

You also seem to be jumping to conclusions about me.  I'm not a gun guy.  Never fired one in my life.  Not a fur guy either, but go ahead and take the moral high ground if you like.  I didn't have a problem with what you said.  It was how you said it, and maybe that is on me.  Sorry.

[Spotcheck Billy]

I guess what really bothers politicians on the right is the noise these guns make. Heck, sooner or later someone is gonna notice how many people are shot every day.

Luckily, they are right on the case. They will vote to legalize silencers cuz  - and they actually said this - they want to protect the ears of hunters. No word, however, if they want to protect lives of innocent American citizens. A date has not been set for the vote because mass shootings keep interfering with their plans.

Just imagine how many more hundreds of people would have been shot in Vegas if the murderer had been equipped with silencers. Republicans are working hard to make them available for the next nut that comes along.

50 state legal sound suppressor already available: https://www.store.silencerco.com/products/maxim-50?variant=37950952529&avad=55963_ff8f407d

[naginiF]

So, maybe I was wrong and if so I apologize.  Your comment seemed completely condescending.   Maybe I read it wrong. 

Also didn't know faux intellectual was a talk radio term.  Only talk radio I listen to is MLB radio.  A bit of a guilty pleasure for me.  But I didn't know what to call someone who seemed to think they were so superior.  Again, maybe I misinterpreted your tone.

You also seem to be jumping to conclusions about me.  I'm not a gun guy.  Never fired one in my life.  Not a fur guy either, but go ahead and take the moral high ground if you like.  I didn't have a problem with what you said.  It was how you said it, and maybe that is on me.  Sorry.

No prob - i am a socially liberal, urban living, atheist and (mostly) vegetarian - that combination doesn't get viewed as elitist totally by accident. 

[MUEng92]

In my opinion, whatever point in history it was that political opinions became equivalent to sports fan opinions (i.e. my team is the best and yours sucks) eternally doomed our society.  I most definitely lean one way in the political debate and I will fully admit to falling into that trap. My instinctual reaction is to agree with people on my side and assume the other side doesn't know what they are talking about.  However, there are more than a few topics that I cannot, and won't, defend "my side's" position.  At that point, I get depressed and turn on sports where I know my team actually is the best and the other teams sucks.

[GooooMarquette]

They should be illegal, full stop.

Yep. It's pretty sad to make automatic weapons illegal, if you can easily turn a semi automatic into an automatic.

[Benny B]

Yep. It's pretty sad to make automatic weapons illegal, if you can easily turn a semi automatic into an automatic.

Not just sad.... stupid.

Perhaps this was a Minnesota thing or maybe our instructor was just trying to scare us into not doing anything stupid, but when I took firearms safety at RCC in the early 90's, I distinctly remember the instructor saying that any modification to a firearm's mechanics was highly illegal and would land us in jail for a long time.  So I have always been of the mindset that you never modify a firearm outside of the mfg's accessories (chokes, stocks, barrel plugs, etc.)... apparently I was wrong.

[Lennys Tap]

Right here is a pretty good argument against allowing guns in bars. In the last few years, NC and many other states have passed laws saying guns in bars are just peachy-keen.

You can be just a couple of guys having a "friendly debate." When one of you pisses the other off, a punch is thrown ... and, hey, I've got a gun handy! And what good is a gun if you don't use it?

That sounds snarky, but I am serious about this point. Guns in bars. Yet another NRA-sponsored great idea passed by the legislators they have on puppet strings. It's all about freedom!

But yes, Lenny, I agree with your overall point.

I get angry at myself that I let myself get angered by a couple of posters - and it is only a couple, and everybody here knows who they are: one who openly brags about his smugness, and the other who was banned a year ago but keeps rising from the ashes.

I should be better than that - "superior," as Smuggles keeps saying, because it makes him feel superior to keep accusing others of feeling superior - but I do admit to my weakness. I'll try to do better.

Totally agree, Mike. why people can't see that guns and booze are a toxic mix is beyond me.

[jficke13]

Not just sad.... stupid.

Perhaps this was a Minnesota thing or maybe our instructor was just trying to scare us into not doing anything stupid, but when I took firearms safety at RCC in the early 90's, I distinctly remember the instructor saying that any modification to a firearm's mechanics was highly illegal and would land us in jail for a long time.  So I have always been of the mindset that you never modify a firearm outside of the mfg's accessories (chokes, stocks, barrel plugs, etc.)... apparently I was wrong.

That sounds... not quite right. I worked at a shotgun trap/skeet/sporting clays range in high school and there's a huge industry of after-market modifications to trap guns.

Enabling full auto on an M-16? Sure, that sounds illegal.

Installing an aftermarket choke or your own neon beads on a skeet gun? That sounds less illegal.

[ATL MU Warrior]

That sounds... not quite right. I worked at a shotgun trap/skeet/sporting clays range in high school and there's a huge industry of after-market modifications to trap guns.

Enabling full auto on an M-16? Sure, that sounds illegal.

Installing an aftermarket choke or your own neon beads on a skeet gun? That sounds less illegal.

always read the full post.

[mu03eng]

Yep. It's pretty sad to make automatic weapons illegal, if you can easily turn a semi automatic into an automatic.

Agreed, its really just a question of technology. You can make extended mags, silencers, modify to auto, etc at home without a kit. You wouldn't have to go buy anything that someone could keep off the market. So if you make something like extended mags illegal, you are simply making  "legitimate" needs for extended mags(no idea what that is but let's assume there is one) illegal while doing nothing to prevent the evil doer with know-how from getting the thing he(always a he right?) wants to do.

I'm not saying this as an excuse not to make extended mags or a stock bump, etc illegal....simply saying pragmatically it won't really do anything so is it worth the fight?

[Pakuni]

Agreed, its really just a question of technology. You can make extended mags, silencers, modify to auto, etc at home without a kit. You wouldn't have to go buy anything that someone could keep off the market. So if you make something like extended mags illegal, you are simply making  "legitimate" needs for extended mags(no idea what that is but let's assume there is one) illegal while doing nothing to prevent the evil doer with know-how from getting the thing he(always a he right?) wants to do.

I'm not saying this as an excuse not to make extended mags or a stock bump, etc illegal....simply saying pragmatically it won't really do anything so is it worth the fight?

Well, for starters, I don't buy for a second that just anyone could pick up a few items at Lowe's and make their own extended mags and stock bumps. It seems metallurgy would take some skill and specialized equipment, no?

Regardless, I don't understand this line of thinking. At all.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you could apply it to pretty much any law out there and ultimately ... what? Decide not to have laws?
Because some yokel in a trailer in Iowa can cook meth, should we make meth legal?
Because somebody can make pipe bombs in their basement, should we allow the sale of Semtex and C4 at Home Depot?
Because people continue to murder, rape, assault and steal, should we legalize murder, rape, assault and theft?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be that there's no point in having these gun control laws because some might choose to violate them.
By that standard, there's no point in having any law, because every law gets broken.

[jficke13]

always read the full post.

I... uh... did?

[MU82]

Well, for starters, I don't buy for a second that just anyone could pick up a few items at Lowe's and make their own extended mags and stock bumps. It seems metallurgy would take some skill and specialized equipment, no?

Regardless, I don't understand this line of thinking. At all.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you could apply it to pretty much any law out there and ultimately ... what? Decide not to have laws?
Because some yokel in a trailer in Iowa can cook meth, should we make meth legal?
Because somebody can make pipe bombs in their basement, should we allow the sale of Semtex and C4 at Home Depot?
Because people continue to murder, rape, assault and steal, should we legalize murder, rape, assault and theft?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be that there's no point in having these gun control laws because some might choose to violate them.
By that standard, there's no point in having any law, because every law gets broken.

This is so spot-on, Pakuni. It actually is a big part of the gun lobby's reason for not passing gun laws. "You can't stop all shootings, so why bother?"

[MU82]

Five words to add to the 2nd Amendment by Justice John Paul Stevens

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-five-extra-words-that-can-fix-the-second-amendment/2014/04/11/f8a19578-b8fa-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.38431cdd15ad

This article nicely summarizes the legal history of the 2nd amendment. i encourage all to read it no matter your position on the 2nd so as to have a better understanding of its history over the last two centuries.

P.S. this article is part of a very insightful book.

Thanks so much for this, GSW. Brilliantly written piece. The logic in it is almost inarguable unless one has an ulterior motive - such as selling guns.

This is one of many arguments against strict "constitutionalism." The Constitution was written 228 years ago. The men who wrote it were very smart, but they weren't perfect. And they certainly couldn't see the future.

Laws that protect a militia's right to keep flintlocks and muskets do not translate very well to 2017.

[rocket surgeon]

Totally agree, Mike. why people can't see that guns and booze are a toxic mix is beyond me.

"Most states reserve the right to revoke a concealed carry pistol permit under reasonable suspicion and chemical analysis. That means, if a police officer has probable cause that you may have been drinking and you have a weapon on you, he has the authority granted to him by the state to immediately revoke that permit. . Continue reading at: http://aliengearholsters.com/blog/concealed-carry-and-alcohol/"

  in the article-they highlight-"in almost every single case, the concealed carry handgun permit is pulled"

[JDWarrior]

My neighbor was on Sunday night.  Wonderful guy.  Super outgoing, father of four (two of his own and two step sons), his oldest was a recent graduate of the Air Force Academy.  His second son went to high school with my son and currently with my daughter, he is a senior.  Brian was an avid sportsman, hunter, fisherman, snowboarder, always had the coolest toys - he enjoyed having fun.  On Friday he and 20+ other family and friends flew to Vegas to have fun, go to the concerts.  He became an ordained minister just to be able to perform the marriage service of his oldest son this Summer.  As of yesterday, the two youngest kids (grade school) had not been told of his death until their mom returned home last night for Nevada.

His wife was with him in Vegas Sunday night, but they were separated when the shooting started as he wanted to get closer to the stage to hear one of his favorite songs.  His oldest son left earlier that day to start grad school at UCLA on Monday.

If you are considering making a donation, a special family and special man.  RIP Brian.


http://www.nbclosangeles.com/on-air/as-seen-on/Recalling-Final-Goodbye-Before-Las-Vegas-Shooting_Los-Angeles-449344563.html


https://www.gofundme.com/j8f37g-brians-family



Thank you

JD

[rocket surgeon]

My neighbor was on Sunday night.  Wonderful guy.  Super outgoing, father of four (two of his own and two step sons), his oldest was a recent graduate of the Air Force Academy.  His second son went to high school with my son and currently with my daughter, he is a senior.  Brian was an avid sportsman, hunter, fisherman, snowboarder, always had the coolest toys - he enjoyed having fun.  On Friday he and 20+ other family and friends flew to Vegas to have fun, go to the concerts.  He became an ordained minister just to be able to perform the marriage service of his oldest son this Summer.  As of yesterday, the two youngest kids (grade school) had not been told of his death until their mom returned home last night for Nevada.

His wife was with him in Vegas Sunday night, but they were separated when the shooting started as he wanted to get closer to the stage to hear one of his favorite songs.  His oldest son left earlier that day to start grad school at UCLA on Monday.

If you are considering making a donation, a special family and special man.  RIP Brian.


http://www.nbclosangeles.com/on-air/as-seen-on/Recalling-Final-Goodbye-Before-Las-Vegas-Shooting_Los-Angeles-449344563.html


https://www.gofundme.com/j8f37g-brians-family



Thank you

JD

wow!  very very sad!  whenever these stories hit this close to home, they become more real.  i've never donated to a gofundme, but this is too sad to pass up.  very heartfelt prayers of peace to the family

[Jay Bee]

Under Obama, the U.S. OK'd bump-fire stocks... making semi-automatics more similar to automatic weapons. Interesting, hey?

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article176908121.html

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/04/us/bump-stock-las-vegas-shooting/index.html

...PS, re: the Second Amendment and cries over it...

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452240/second-amendment-argument-united-states-constitution

GO LYNX

[GGGG]

Under Obama, the U.S. OK'd bump-fire stocks... making semi-automatics more similar to automatic weapons. Interesting, hey?

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article176908121.html

"The stocks have been around for less than a decade. The government gave its seal of approval to selling them in 2010 after concluding that they did not violate federal law."

What's so interesting?  They don't violate federal law.  That's why they want to change the law.

[mu03eng]

Well, for starters, I don't buy for a second that just anyone could pick up a few items at Lowe's and make their own extended mags and stock bumps. It seems metallurgy would take some skill and specialized equipment, no?

Regardless, I don't understand this line of thinking. At all.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you could apply it to pretty much any law out there and ultimately ... what? Decide not to have laws?
Because some yokel in a trailer in Iowa can cook meth, should we make meth legal?
Because somebody can make pipe bombs in their basement, should we allow the sale of Semtex and C4 at Home Depot?
Because people continue to murder, rape, assault and steal, should we legalize murder, rape, assault and theft?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be that there's no point in having these gun control laws because some might choose to violate them.
By that standard, there's no point in having any law, because every law gets broken.

Listen, I'm all for such laws, I'm just saying is it ultimately worth the political fight. I get that's part of what the NRA does, but I just prioritize spending political capital on something that is more pragmatically useful/impactful.

[Benny B]

I... uh... did?

Then read it again.

[MU82]

"Most states reserve the right to revoke a concealed carry pistol permit under reasonable suspicion and chemical analysis. That means, if a police officer has probable cause that you may have been drinking and you have a weapon on you, he has the authority granted to him by the state to immediately revoke that permit. . Continue reading at: http://aliengearholsters.com/blog/concealed-carry-and-alcohol/"

  in the article-they highlight-"in almost every single case, the concealed carry handgun permit is pulled"

What if there's not a police officer there?

[GooooMarquette]

Well, for starters, I don't buy for a second that just anyone could pick up a few items at Lowe's and make their own extended mags and stock bumps. It seems metallurgy would take some skill and specialized equipment, no?

Regardless, I don't understand this line of thinking. At all.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you could apply it to pretty much any law out there and ultimately ... what? Decide not to have laws?
Because some yokel in a trailer in Iowa can cook meth, should we make meth legal?
Because somebody can make pipe bombs in their basement, should we allow the sale of Semtex and C4 at Home Depot?
Because people continue to murder, rape, assault and steal, should we legalize murder, rape, assault and theft?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be that there's no point in having these gun control laws because some might choose to violate them.
By that standard, there's no point in having any law, because every law gets broken.

Well stated. 

[jficke13]

Then read it again.

So you thought modifying firearms was illegal per your firearm safety class in MN, but you now think that might not be the case?

I was aware of aftermarket modification of firearms... which seems to support the fact that it's at least legal in some cases?

Is there invisible ink somewhere in there that I'm missing or is this another solid Myron Medcalfe kind of moment?