Steve Bartman Gets a Ring

[Sheriff]

Watch the video.  Others did react but the ball hit Bartman's left hand as he reached for it over the wall.

[GGGG]

Oh boy...a Bartman truther...

[jsglow]

Your memory is faulty. The ball was already in the stands when Bartman reached for it, and anyways he wasn't even the only fan to reach for he ball.

Chitown is correct.  The ball was essentially directly above the rail, quite high up a significant brick wall in what would have been a very difficult catch for Alou.  There was a chap a couple of seats closer to home plate along that same rail that literally lunged over the seats toward Bartman but never got his hands on the actual ball.  The ball was not over the field of play but might have been catchable if everyone would have had the presence of mind to give Alou a clear shot.  Way more than one lone individual had other ideas as many reached up for the ball.

Here's what's important to note.  Fan interference was not signaled by the umpire.  I suspect, but am not certain, that modern video replay would uphold that call.  One other note.  Alou's continuing rant as he returned to toward his position was part of the mental 'tent folding' that went on throughout the inning.  Instead of pounding his fist in his glove and refocusing, he cried like a 10 year old girl.  The Cubs were beyond mentally weak that day.  And they lost the pennant because of it.

[Sheriff]

Chitown is correct.  The ball was essentially directly above the rail, quite high up a significant brick wall in what would have been a very difficult catch for Alou.  There was a chap a couple of seats closer to home plate along that same rail that literally lunged over the seats toward Bartman but never got his hands on the actual ball.  The ball was not over the field of play but might have been catchable if everyone would have had the presence of mind to give Alou a clear shot.  Way more than one lone individual had other ideas as many reached up for the ball.

Agreed

[MerrittsMustache]

Watch the video.  Others did react but the ball hit Bartman's left hand as he reached for it over the wall.

If he had reached over the wall, it would have been fan interference and the second out of the inning.

In my previous post, I should have said "jumped up and reached into the stands" as opposed to "jumped into the stands."

[MU82]

Chitown is correct.  The ball was essentially directly above the rail, quite high up a significant brick wall in what would have been a very difficult catch for Alou.  There was a chap a couple of seats closer to home plate along that same rail that literally lunged over the seats toward Bartman but never got his hands on the actual ball.  The ball was not over the field of play but might have been catchable if everyone would have had the presence of mind to give Alou a clear shot.  Way more than one lone individual had other ideas as many reached up for the ball.

Here's what's important to note.  Fan interference was not signaled by the umpire.  I suspect, but am not certain, that modern video replay would uphold that call.  One other note.  Alou's continuing rant as he returned to toward his position was part of the mental 'tent folding' that went on throughout the inning.  Instead of pounding his fist in his glove and refocusing, he cried like a 10 year old girl.  The Cubs were beyond mentally weak that day.  And they lost the pennant because of it.

I agree with all of this.

If Alex Gonzalez booted that double-play grounder because he was still thinking about Bartman, he is the most mentally weak player in baseball history and his team deserved to lose.

If Gonzalez booted it just because he screwed up ... well, that's baseball ... and the Cubs still deserved to lose.

[jsglow]

I agree with all of this.

If Alex Gonzalez booted that double-play grounder because he was still thinking about Bartman, he is the most mentally weak player in baseball history and his team deserved to lose.

If Gonzalez booted it just because he screwed up ... well, that's baseball ... and the Cubs still deserved to lose.

All true, but it wasn't just Gonzalez.  That pitcher was all over the place including to the backstop.  He had to grove stuff just to get strikes with predictable results.

[MerrittsMustache]

All true, but it wasn't just Gonzalez.  That pitcher was all over the place including to the backstop.  He had to grove stuff just to get strikes with predictable results.

The pitch to Castillo that resulted in the "Bartman play" was Prior's 113th pitch of the game. He then walked Castillo on a wild pitch and was left out there to face 3 more batters...all righties, by the way, with Farnsworth (a righty) ready in the pen. Dusty and Rothschild did the team no favors.

[MU82]

The pitch to Castillo that resulted in the "Bartman play" was Prior's 113th pitch of the game. He then walked Castillo on a wild pitch and was left out there to face 3 more batters...all righties, by the way, with Farnsworth (a righty) ready in the pen. Dusty and Rothschild did the team no favors.

Had all the crud not happened, there is no way I would have taken Prior out of that game. He was cruising, regardless of pitch count, and I wouldn't have had much faith in Borowski, Farnsworth, Remlinger, etc. With the first pennant since 1945 on the line, I would have stayed with the guy who arguably was the best pitcher in baseball from July on.

But the crud DID happen, and this is a valid point, 'Stache.

[Sheriff]

If no one reaches for the ball, in the stands or over the field of play, and Alou makes the catch, how does the game turn out?  We'll never know.

[jsglow]

The pitch to Castillo that resulted in the "Bartman play" was Prior's 113th pitch of the game. He then walked Castillo on a wild pitch and was left out there to face 3 more batters...all righties, by the way, with Farnsworth (a righty) ready in the pen. Dusty and Rothschild did the team no favors.

Thanks for the detail.  Dusty was too slow to recognize what was happening.  113 pitches and he lets Prior die out there.  That should have been it after the wild pitch if only to settle the team.  MAYBE one more batter.

Look, this is all very easy in retrospect.  I've lived and died with the Packers my entire life.  And as it was happening to us against Seattle, our guys were powerless to stop it.  Think how Atlanta feels right now or go back to Greg Norman in the Masters about 20 years ago when it took 4 hours for his wheels to fall off.  Crap happens.

[brewcity77]

Here's the video. You can see clearly that Bartman is one of three people that reaches for the ball with a viable chance to get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq8G81oOHhY

Here's a freeze frame. Could Alou have got to it? Maybe. Bartman's arm did appear to be right above his glove. But regardless, it would've been a tough catch and most likely if Steve's arms aren't there, someone else would've interfered with it.



All water under the bridge now. Might he have caught it? Sure. Might it have been too far and too tough an angle? Sure. Who knows? Who cares?

[tower912]

Still prefer the Great Big Sea version of 'Let it Go'.     Doesn't have the cool GIF, however. 

[wadesworld]

Any fan would do what Bartman did.  Heck, even if I had time to sit and think, "Hmm, this ball is coming close to me.  And my favorite team's left fielder is coming close to me.  Maybe the left fielder coming close to me has a chance to catch the ball coming close to me.  Let me not make a move to catch the ball coming close to me so the left fielder that is coming close to me can catch the ball coming close to me," 99.999% of fans (myself included) would try to catch the ball if for no other reason than to not be hit by a baseball falling from the sky.  Problem for him is he did it in Chicago.

And this thread is one of the many reasons it was so stupid to give the guy a WS ring.  As if his life wasn't ruined enough, he could've finally drifted off quietly into the sunset now that the Cubs have gotten their elusive WS title, but instead we're making Steve Bartman a national name once again.  The story is never going to go away.  Just like Bill Buckner's name is still brought up constantly and the replay constantly shown, Steve Bartman is a name that will be thrown around forever, championship ring for playing absolutely no roll in the Chicago Cubs winning a 2016 World Series title or not.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Any fan would do what Bartman did.

Would they?  No fan would be cognizant that there team is 5 outs away from the WS and realize that any chance a fielder has to record an out is precious.

It doesn't help that the stereotypical Cub fan knows nothing about baseball and probably isn't even watching the game, much less aware of score or situation...and whadda know, Bartman is wearing headphones, which makes him look like a stereotypical unaware Cubs fan, and tries to catch a foul ball when his team is 5 outs away from their first World Series in 50 plus years.

Yes, Bartman got far more grief than he deserved.  But watching the play live, I remember thinking "That'll come back to haunt them" and sure enough the curse lived on.  I'm still convinced the play lead to the Cubs losing their focus.  Had Alou simply failed to catch a very difficult foul ball, much ado about nothing.  Maybe then Gonzalez turns the double play, the Cubs win the game, and the Yankees beat the Cubs in the WS anyways. 

[buckchuckler]

[StillAWarrior]

It doesn't help that the stereotypical Cub fan knows nothing about baseball and probably isn't even watching the game, much less aware of score or situation...and whadda know, Bartman is wearing headphones, which makes him look like a stereotypical unaware Cubs fan...

I have no dog in this fight, and really don't care too much about Bartman one way or another.  But very often, my general impression of people wearing headphones at a baseball game is that they are listening to the radio broadcast and tend to be the more knowledgeable and aware fans in the crowd -- the baseball junkies.  This impression has lessened since then, with the proliferation of phones with headphone jacks, but I honestly always assumed Bartman was listening to the game.  I have no idea if that's correct, though.

I think at the time, most fans would have done what he did, and I don't think that it "outed" him as less aware or less knowledgeable.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Bartman will be on a upcoming episode of Pawn Stars trying to sell his WS ring.

[MerrittsMustache]

I have no dog in this fight, and really don't care too much about Bartman one way or another.  But very often, my general impression of people wearing headphones at a baseball game is that they are listening to the radio broadcast and tend to be the more knowledgeable and aware fans in the crowd -- the baseball junkies.  This impression has lessened since then, with the proliferation of phones with headphone jacks, but I honestly always assumed Bartman was listening to the game.  I have no idea if that's correct, though.

I think at the time, most fans would have done what he did, and I don't think that it "outed" him as less aware or less knowledgeable.

You're 100% correct. Bartman was listening to the game. It's well known that he's a lifelong, die hard Cubs fan. If he wasn't, he likely would have cashed in on his infamy. Instead, he's turned down hundreds of thousands of dollars and done all he can do to stay out of the spotlight but the media, and now the Cubs' execs, keeping shining it back on him.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

A few TV cameras did what TV types always do. That doesn't mean "the media" went overboard covering a major, major story. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Also, I admit that I'm probably a little touchy on this subject given You Know Who's constant attempts to distract from his own failingskis by always screaming, "Fake News!" All I'll say is thank goodness for the Times and Post these days.

I'm definitely not trying to say it shouldn't have been covered at all - it was obviously a huge story.  But the outlets that released his name and went to his or his parents' residences should be ashamed of themselves.  I personally got sick of hearing about it in 07, 08, 15, and 16 when the Cubs made the playoffs.   

I definitely was not trying to go the "fake news" route with my opinion.   

I do think the extent of the coverage over the next 13 years was absurd.

Additionally, there is a ridiculous take in the Chicago Tribune by David Haugh that basically says closure cannot be attained until Steve Bartman is seen in public answering questions about the incident.  This is one of the most ridiculous takes I've ever read

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-steve-bartman-closure-a-myth-haugh-20170801-column.html

[Vander Blue Man Group]

It doesn't help that the stereotypical Cub fan knows nothing about baseball and probably isn't even watching the game, much less aware of score or situation...and whadda know, Bartman is wearing headphones, which makes him look like a stereotypical unaware Cubs fan, and tries to catch a foul ball when his team is 5 outs away from their first World Series in 50 plus years.

As others have mentioned, Bartman was listening to the game on the radio. 

The Cubs fan stereotype always amuses me.  You definitely have the fans that are there for the atmosphere but on the whole it is a knowledgeable fan base. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

As others have mentioned, Bartman was listening to the game on the radio. 

The Cubs fan stereotype always amuses me.  You definitely have the fans that are there for the atmosphere but on the whole it is a knowledgeable fan base.

I know Bartman was listening to the game.  I know that it is considered sports geek cool to listen to a baseball game while you are attending it.  But anytime I see someone wearing headphones at a sporting event, my snap judgement is "you're isolated, your in your own little world, you're not paying attention to the action on the field."  Even if you are listening to the game, I feel that wearing the headphones isolates you.

And yes, I know Cub fans are just like any other fan base with a cross-section of knowledgeable fans, bandwagon fans, and in between.  One of my best friends from college is a very knowledgeable Cubs fan.  The stereotype comes from the Cubs being called lovable losers for years, Wrigleyville being considered hip, and people dressing up to go to a baseball game like it's a nightclub.  Why can't they be more like us Packer fans, wearing their Mark Chmura jersey to church.

[Sheriff]

A few TV cameras did what TV types always do. That doesn't mean "the media" went overboard covering a major, major story. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Also, I admit that I'm probably a little touchy on this subject given You Know Who's constant attempts to distract from his own failingskis by always screaming, "Fake News!" All I'll say is thank goodness for the Times and Post these days.

Upon receiving his ring, Bartman himself reprimanded the media.

“My hope is that we all can learn from my experience to view sports as entertainment and prevent harsh scapegoating, and to challenge the media and opportunistic profiteers to conduct business ethically by respecting personal privacy rights and not exploit any individual to advance their own self-interest or economic gain.”

Source - New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/sports/baseball/steve-bartman-chicago-cubs-fan.html

[MerrittsMustache]

I know Bartman was listening to the game.  I know that it is considered sports geek cool to listen to a baseball game while you are attending it.  But anytime I see someone wearing headphones at a sporting event, my snap judgement is "your isolated, your in your own little world, your not paying attention to the action on the field."  Even if you are listening to the game, I feel that wearing the headphones isolates you.

How does listening to the game that you're watching result in not paying attention to the game you're watching?


Also, when you're trying to act smarter than everyone, at least use proper grammar.

[StillAWarrior]

I know Bartman was listening to the game...But anytime I see someone wearing headphones at a sporting event, my snap judgement is "your isolated...

I'm with you...

...your in your own little world...

...still with you...

...your not paying attention to the action on the field."

...aaaaaaand, you lost me.