The finish

[Galway Eagle]

They were not going to win the NCAA tournament that year, so for MU, a championship was good for there resume at the time.  The next year Jim Chones and Bob
Lackey showed up, different story.

St Bonaventure, Jacksonville and New Mexico State. You don't think that we could've beaten any of them? I know I wasn't there and I'm sure it was awesome at the time but I'm arguing that from where we are now it was a stupid decision and whether it's another NCAA birth on our all time resume or another sweet 16 or Elite 8 or Final Four from that year it'd make us that much better looking on all time charts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think Al turning down the NCAA and winning the NIT is part of his legend. Its endearing because he became the best coach in Marquette history. If he didn't, we would look back at it differently.

I wasn't around, so I don't really have a right to judge one way or another. I also have no idea how the 1970 NCAA tournament would have gone had we entered it...but I would definitely rather have another Final Four than an NIT Championship.

[79Warrior]

They were not going to win the NCAA tournament that year, so for MU, a championship was good for there resume at the time.  The next year Jim Chones and Bob
Lackey showed up, different story.

There is no way to know that MU would not have won the NCAA. Not sure how you can say that.  MU was very good in 1970, good enough to get an at-large. Al was pissed off at the region they were putting us in.

[GGGG]

This. And the reason that Al turned it down was more important than any basketball game.

And that reason was that Al wanted to go to Dayton versus Fort Worth?  Was there a reason beyond that?

[HoopsterBC]

There is no way to know that MU would not have won the NCAA. Not sure how you can say that.  MU was very good in 1970, good enough to get an at-large. Al was pissed off at the region they were putting us in.

I am not sure that Ric Cobb could have taken care of Bill Walton?  Nor there forwards Curtis Rowe and Sidney Wicks,  Dean might have been able to handle Henry
Bibby, I do not see it.  MU was very undersized that year.

[brewcity77]

St Bonaventure, Jacksonville and New Mexico State. You don't think that we could've beaten any of them?

Bob Lanier was on that St Bonaventure team (Averaged 29 ppg/16 rpg) and Artis Gilmore (26.5 ppg/22 rpg not a typo) was on that Jacksonville squad. I know they aren't sexy names now, but those were very good teams.

[GGGG]

Bob Lanier was on that St Bonaventure team (Averaged 29 ppg/16 rpg) and Artis Gilmore (26.5 ppg/22 rpg not a typo) was on that Jacksonville squad. I know they aren't sexy names now, but those were very good teams.

Jimmy Collins was the star on that New Mexico State team coached by Lou Henson.  The same Jimmy Collins that fueded with Bruce Pearl when he was the head coach at UIC and Pearl was at UWM.

[Lennys Tap]

Your point about pissing the tournament committee off has to be the college kid in you still talking because truthfully in this day and age nobody remembers nor cares that that happened, they look at Wikipedia and count NCAA births and say "Jeeze they must've crapped the bed in 1970"

Actually it's the basketball fan/historian in me, not the "college kid" As for fans so ignorant/lazy that they don't know or care what happened and don't dig deeper than Wikipedia for their history lessons, I say "Who gives a shyte what those morons think?"

[Galway Eagle]

Actually it's the basketball fan/historian in me, not the "college kid" As for fans so ignorant/lazy that they don't know or care what happened and don't dig deeper than Wikipedia for their history lessons, I say "Who gives a shyte what those morons think?"

Well public perception isn't made up of people who care to investigate minute details about every school's history and actual records don't come with asterisks saying "Marquette would've been top 10 for all time appearances but rejected one". Only obsessive fans of our school know that and between a bunch of old guys getting their jollys off that our school rebelled in 1970 or our school being one step closer to being elite, id take the one step closer every single time.

[MU82]

I think Al turning down the NCAA and winning the NIT is part of his legend. Its endearing because he became the best coach in Marquette history. If he didn't, we would look back at it differently.

True, true.

[drewm88]

Well public perception isn't made up of people who care to investigate minute details about every school's history and actual records don't come with asterisks saying "Marquette would've been top 10 for all time appearances but rejected one". Only obsessive fans of our school know that and between a bunch of old guys getting their jollys off that our school rebelled in 1970 or our school being one step closer to being elite, id take the one step closer every single time.

I don't care what the average person thinks right now. I prefer the story of Al telling the NCAA to kick rocks to another tournament appearance. As has been said, it adds to the legend of Al and MU history. Probably would have taken a hypothetical final four for me to think differently.

[Lennys Tap]

Well public perception isn't made up of people who care to investigate minute details about every school's history and actual records don't come with asterisks saying "Marquette would've been top 10 for all time appearances but rejected one". Only obsessive fans of our school know that and between a bunch of old guys getting their jollys off that our school rebelled in 1970 or our school being one step closer to being elite, id take the one step closer every single time.

1.It's not a minute detail. It's an important piece of Marquette AND college basketball history.

2. Being knowledgeable is only "obsessive" to the uninformed.

[Lennys Tap]

I think Al turning down the NCAA and winning the NIT is part of his legend. Its endearing because he became the best coach in Marquette history. If he didn't, we would look back at it differently.

He didn't just go to the NIT, he gave the NCAA the finger and then WON the NIT. If we don't win those 4 games people look at it much differently.

[GGGG]

Well public perception isn't made up of people who care to investigate minute details about every school's history and actual records don't come with asterisks saying "Marquette would've been top 10 for all time appearances but rejected one". Only obsessive fans of our school know that and between a bunch of old guys getting their jollys off that our school rebelled in 1970 or our school being one step closer to being elite, id take the one step closer every single time.

So are you saying that a potential Final Four 47 years ago would have made Marquette more elite in the public's eyes?

Then the public is stupid.  And like drew said, I don't give a flying f*ck what the public thinks about Al's decision back then and how it impacts their perceptions now. 

[Galway Eagle]

He didn't just go to the NIT, he gave the NCAA the finger and then WON the NIT. If we don't win those 4 games people look at it much differently.

You say that as if it carries weight... it doesn't. Think of it like this, if we recieved an invite to the NCAA tournament now and gave it the finger then went to the NIT and won people would say "well that was supposed to happen" it's no different back then except the NIT teams were a lot better, but they still weren't good enough to make the NCAA tournament so it should have been expected to win. High risk, extremely low reward.

So are you saying that a potential Final Four 47 years ago would have made Marquette more elite in the public's eyes?

Then the public is stupid.  And like drew said, I don't give a flying f*ck what the public thinks about Al's decision back then and how it impacts their perceptions now. 

Being top 10 in NCAA appearances would've made us elite in the public's eyes. Another FF would've made us more elite in the public's eyes (and made Al a cement his legacy as the second or third best coach of that era). 

That's fine if you don't care what the public thinks, I do. Personally I was over on Holyland of Hoops and a guy said 'yes I know Marquette was good in the 70s but so was Providence and Villanova, they both made the Final Four and Providence were monsters in the 70s' now I'd personally like to have the public perception be hands down that they weren't even remotely near our level and not have to deal with that argument So another bid or FF or S16 or E8 would help that.

[GGGG]

Being top 10 in NCAA appearances would've made us elite in the public's eyes. Another FF would've made us more elite in the public's eyes (and made Al a cement his legacy as the second or third best coach of that era). 

I don't think another Final Four in 1970 would have any relevance to how people view the program today.  I follow the program and had no idea that accepting a bid then would have made us top ten in appearances.  And even if it had, it is simply trivial.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Help us youngsters out. We weren't even alive so we are lacking a lot of context. Was there more to the story of Al turning down the NCAA bid? What I've always been told is that he was unhappy with the region we were placed in...on its face, that always seemed like a silly thing to get so upset that you would turn down an NCAA bid. I knew Al and the NCAA had an adversarial history and I assumed that had something to do with it.

[jsglow]

Help us youngsters out. We weren't even alive so we are lacking a lot of context. Was there more to the story of Al turning down the NCAA bid? What I've always been told is that he was unhappy with the region we were placed in...on its face, that always seemed like a silly thing to get so upset that you would turn down an NCAA bid. I knew Al and the NCAA had an adversarial history and I assumed that had something to do with it.

This much IS known. There was personal animosity between Adolph Rupp and Al McGuire stemming from the year before when MU beat a highly ranked Kentucky in the NCAA.  Both George and Dean were members of that 68-69 team.  Seeding for the 1969-70 team allowed for the 3rd of 3 midwest 'at large' independents to be shipped out of region, in this case from Dayton (where Kentucky would be) to Ft. Worth. 

The committee, some believe under pressure from Rupp, designated us 3rd and shipped us out leaving Notre Dame and Jacksonville to play in Dayton.  And it's alleged, although not confirmed that I know, that Rupp's incentive wasn't so much that he feared Marquette but that losing to a team in the Tourney that included minority players the prior year was more than he could handle.  It's well known that Rupp was a devout racist.  So it's possible that he simply didn't want to lose to us again.  But it's also possible that the committee buckled to pressure for an inappropriate reason.  And if Coach Al believed that in his heart (we'll never really know) then his not so quiet defiance was yet another reason that statue entering the McGuire center stands for something important.

[GGGG]

This much IS known. There was personal animosity between Adolph Rupp and Al McGuire stemming from the year before when MU beat a highly ranked Kentucky in the NCAA.  Both George and Dean were members of that 68-69 team.  Seeding for the 1969-70 team allowed for the 3rd of 3 midwest 'at large' independents to be shipped out of region, in this case from Dayton (where Kentucky would be) to Ft. Worth. 

The committee, some believe under pressure from Rupp, designated us 3rd and shipped us out leaving Notre Dame and Jacksonville to play in Dayton.  And it's alleged, although not confirmed that I know, that Rupp's incentive wasn't so much that he feared Marquette but that losing to a team in the Tourney that included minority players the prior year was more than he could handle.  It's well known that Rupp was a devout racist.  So it's possible that he simply didn't want to lose to us again.  But it's also possible that the committee buckled to pressure for an inappropriate reason.  And if Coach Al believed that in his heart (we'll never really know) then his not so quiet defiance was yet another reason that statue entering the McGuire center stands for something important.

But to be fair to the Committee, Jacksonville was the AP#4 team in the last poll before the tournament.  They ended up beating Kentucky to get to the Final Four and lost in the championship game to UCLA. 

Marquette was #8.  Notre Dame was #9, but beat Marquette by one point in double overtime in South Bend.

So the Committee's decision to send Marquette to Texas was most definitely understandable.

[jsglow]

But to be fair to the Committee, Jacksonville was the AP#4 team in the last poll before the tournament.  They ended up beating Kentucky to get to the Final Four and lost in the championship game to UCLA. 

Marquette was #8.  Notre Dame was #9, but beat Marquette by one point in double overtime in South Bend.

So the Committee's decision to send Marquette to Texas was most definitely understandable.

All true.  But we're dealing with perceptions here.  And stories from 50 years ago that haven't gone away.  Who knows what was in Al's mind or what was happening behind the scenes.  TAMU was simply asking why a plane ride might have been so objectionable.  If Al believed it true, it was important enough to take a dramatic stand.

[Spotcheck Billy]

You say that as if it carries weight... it doesn't. Think of it like this, if we recieved an invite to the NCAA tournament now and gave it the finger then went to the NIT and won people would say "well that was supposed to happen" it's no different back then except the NIT teams were a lot better, but they still weren't good enough to make the NCAA tournament so it should have been expected to win. High risk, extremely low reward.

Being top 10 in NCAA appearances would've made us elite in the public's eyes. Another FF would've made us more elite in the public's eyes (and made Al a cement his legacy as the second or third best coach of that era). 

That's fine if you don't care what the public thinks, I do. Personally I was over on Holyland of Hoops and a guy said 'yes I know Marquette was good in the 70s but so was Providence and Villanova, they both made the Final Four and Providence were monsters in the 70s' now I'd personally like to have the public perception be hands down that they weren't even remotely near our level and not have to deal with that argument So another bid or FF or S16 or E8 would help that.

One big difference back then was that IIRC only 1 team per conference was allowed in the NCAA. In today's world that would be like not allowing Duke in because UNC was higher ranked. There were plenty of top caliber teams in the NIT unlike today where they are all 2nd tier or worse with todays auto-qualifiers making the NIT.

[GoldenDieners32]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bubblewatch

"Marquette [17-10 (8-7), RPI: 67, SOS: 70] Marquette handled St. John's at home Tuesday, a nice respite in the midst of a particularly challenging closing slate to the regular season. The Golden Eagles finish with trips to Providence and Xavier, followed by a visit from Creighton. Marquette has more quality wins than most of the bubble at this point, but its jagged RPI and strength-of-schedule numbers -- especially its sub-250 noncon-SOS mark -- could become a disproportionate drag on its resume."

[jsglow]

One big difference back then was that IIRC only 1 team per conference was allowed in the NCAA. In today's world that would be like not allowing Duke in because UNC was higher ranked. There were plenty of top caliber teams in the NIT unlike today where they are all 2nd tier or worse with todays auto-qualifiers making the NIT.

The NCAA was only 24 teams back then.  3 conference champs and 3 'at large' in each region.  Can't recall when they went to 32.

[Lennys Tap]

Marquette was #8.  Notre Dame was #9, but beat Marquette by one point in double overtime in South Bend.

I was at the game. We led by 2 and had the ball with maybe 5 seconds left. Inbounded it, our guy was knocked to the ground (no call) and they scored at the buzzer to tie. Only game in my 50 years as a fan where I think we were robbed.

Two of my friends were so pissed they drove back to Milwaukee immediately after the game. My roommate and I stayed and had to hitch hike home, pissed and hungover, the next morning.

[muwarrior69]

I disagree. The NIT was a great tournament back then and we made plenty of history that year. We beat Dr J, the Maraviches and Louie Carneseca AND pissed the NCAA off so much they made future participation in their tournament mandatory if invited. Win, win as Al and MU continued on a wild 13 year ride as college basketball's most interesting and iconoclastic program.

Not to mention those NY metro area recruits he got in the ensuing years. Not sure how many recruits he would have gotten by playing in New Mexico that year.